Uhm... ouch?

[jkwleisemann]

I'm wondering if anybody here would forbid a build like this one.

 

6d6 EB, Defense is having Flash DEF vs Hearing or being deaf (sonic stunner)

 

(combined with)

 

A Dispel vs Hearing Flash Defense (sonic amplifier)

 

Now, these aren't *both* permanent powers; the player is planning on buying the Dispel through his VPP for a temporary solution to a particular villain. But for future reference, is this something most folks would look at and say "no way"?

[Kevin Schultz]

Re: Uhm... ouch?

 

Eh - I'd say "sure, if you don't mind it being used on you," and then have a villian use the exact same justification the character used to create a similar effect, and use it occasionally on the hero in question.

 

EDIT - alternately, I'd consider the two powers to be part of the same compound power, in terms of determining active cost caps.

[Marketeer]

Re: Uhm... ouch?

 

I'm wondering if anybody here would forbid a build like this one.

 

6d6 EB, Defense is having Flash DEF vs Hearing or being deaf (sonic stunner)

 

(combined with)

 

A Dispel vs Hearing Flash Defense (sonic amplifier)

 

Now, these aren't *both* permanent powers; the player is planning on buying the Dispel through his VPP for a temporary solution to a particular villain. But for future reference, is this something most folks would look at and say "no way"?

 

Are they Linked? Or does the character merely have both powers?

 

Conceptually, this is very similar to a Brick also having a "Drain PD" attack; certainly noteworthy but not necessarily inherently dangerous.

 

I would probably disallow the EB to be purchased as an NND; however, purchased as an AVLD (do they still have those in 5th? I remember that it is categorized as an attack vs. a different kind of defence--the same mechanic is possible under a new name), I would consider allowing it.

 

The big problem is that Flash Defence vs Hearing typically only gets purchased up to the 10 pt. level tops, so a Dispel would only need 20 character points worth of effect (factoring in the doubling rule against defences) to dispel the entire thing.

 

 

The other grounds upon which to disallow the whole thing might be that a "sonic amplifier" special effect might not justify removing Flash Defence vs. hearing--it is unclear why making the sonics more intense utterly removes the effect of insulating your hearing.

[jkwleisemann]

Re: Uhm... ouch?

 

I figure I'll probably be okay with it this time, on the off-chance that it happens, but watch out for it in the future.

 

And the idea behind the amplifier was that it would increase the intensity of sound, for the target, to the point where their defenses aren't up to neutralizing it anymore.

 

But we'll see what ends up happening - I'd rather see him get around not having his NND by a more creative method.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Uhm... ouch?

 

AVLD still exists and would work.

 

The main different between AVLD and NND is that AVLD has defenses apply like Defenses. NND is if you have the defense the Power has no effect at all. NND is all or nothing where AVLD is not.

 

Whichever works best for the power idea at hand should be used.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Uhm... ouch?

 

As for allowing it:

 

I might, if it had AVLD then it would allow them to drain down the defenses to start having an effect - like you would Drain any other defense like PD or ED.

 

If it were NND I might not as all you have to do is get the Def to 0 and poof, all Stun automatically gets through.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Uhm... ouch?

 

Allow it? Sure. If I was in a good mood, I might even tell the player that, where two or more powers act at the same time, and one affects the target's defenses, the defense-affecting power always goes last.

 

Thus, your AVLD applies against the target's hearing flash defense. Then your Dispel shuts off his hearing flash defense until he reactivates it as a 0 phase action on his next turn.

 

I'd need a pretty good explanation for the SFX of the Dispel as well.

[Marketeer]

Re: Uhm... ouch?

 

Allow it? Sure. If I was in a good mood, I might even tell the player that, where two or more powers act at the same time, and one affects the target's defenses, the defense-affecting power always goes last.

 

Thus, your AVLD applies against the target's hearing flash defense. Then your Dispel shuts off his hearing flash defense until he reactivates it as a 0 phase action on his next turn.

 

I'd need a pretty good explanation for the SFX of the Dispel as well.

 

 

The other reason I would be somewhat more lenient with AVLD is that AVLD costs more as an advantage, at least as far as I remember; it's still effective, but you are being charged for the effect.

 

In both cases (NND and AVLD), you are using the Dispel to face 0 Flash Defence, or "full damage".

 

I would point out though that if the two are Linked, the defences do apply against the damage dealing attack because Adjustment Powers (and in this case I'd rule the Dispel to be an adjustment even if it strictly speaking is not) apply at half effect against defences.

 

An alternative, less problematic, build would be replacing Suppress for the Drain: I would be more likely to allow that.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Uhm... ouch?

 

Its legal as either an NND or and AVLD (the EB portion).

 

The Dispel vs Flash Defense will have very little affect however, unless the character using it has a higher SPD than the other character (and even then an Abort that among other things turned the Flash Defense back on as a 0 Phase action would mitigate), or the other character bought their Flash Defense via a Charge or with serious initialization Limitations or a Focus which would translate into making the Dispel actually mean anything.

 

Even if the character linked or MPA'd the attacks it still wouldnt work because in the case when such a power includes an attack and an effect that lessens defenses, the attack always resolves first and then the defenses are lessened.

 

 

So, sure its legal, sure you could allow it, but it actually is almost useless in that configuration. You would be better suited consulting the player into a more useful build.

 

A Drain vs Flash Defense would be more useful than a Dispel since it has a longer term effect.

 

Another option is to buy extra dice with the Flash Only Usable To Overcome Flash Defense (I'd say about -1/2 generally, more if FD is very rare, less if it is extremely common). This has the advantage of allowing the character to affect people with Flash Defense like people that don't have it without up-scaling the duration of the FD, or suffering from the order of presedence lag encountered in the Dispel / Drain scenario.

[BoloOfEarth]

Re: Uhm... ouch?

 

Allow it? Sure. If I was in a good mood, I might even tell the player that, where two or more powers act at the same time, and one affects the target's defenses, the defense-affecting power always goes last.

 

Thus, your AVLD applies against the target's hearing flash defense. Then your Dispel shuts off his hearing flash defense until he reactivates it as a 0 phase action on his next turn.

 

I'd need a pretty good explanation for the SFX of the Dispel as well.

 

Good point about the Dispel, and the target's ability to turn it back on. Another thought is that the target need only buy Difficult to Dispel (+1/4) on the Flash Defense, perhaps twice, and the Dispel becomes effectively useless.

 

Note that, at least in the original 5th Edition (I don't have 5ER), Dispel was a Standard Attack power, not an Adjustment power, so the effect of Dispel on defenses isn't halved, at least as I read it.

 

Personally, I'd suggest a 4d6 AVLD (Flash Defense - Hearing) with a Linked 1d6 Drain vs. Flash Defense - Hearing. The sonics are powerful enough to slowly but surely wear down the target's defenses.

[Lemurion]

Re: Uhm... ouch?

 

Good point about the Dispel, and the target's ability to turn it back on. Another thought is that the target need only buy Difficult to Dispel (+1/4) on the Flash Defense, perhaps twice, and the Dispel becomes effectively useless.

 

Note that, at least in the original 5th Edition (I don't have 5ER), Dispel was a Standard Attack power, not an Adjustment power, so the effect of Dispel on defenses isn't halved, at least as I read it.

 

Personally, I'd suggest a 4d6 AVLD (Flash Defense - Hearing) with a Linked 1d6 Drain vs. Flash Defense - Hearing. The sonics are powerful enough to slowly but surely wear down the target's defenses.

 

That makes a lot more sense.

[Matt Frisbee]

Re: Uhm... ouch?

 

This reminds me of a martial artist character in one of my campaigns who could drain off his opponent's PD (with a skill roll in his Martial Art). The argument went that as his character fought an opponent (the same one) he would learn the more vulnerable spots and key on hitting those. This particular power (as I remember it) wouldn't work against resistant PD, but since it was separate from his standard attacks and fit under the AP limit, I allowed it.

 

It worked fairly well, actually, since his character had the highest speed of the group, but he spent most of his XP to buy up his REC...

 

As for this build, if he 1) kept them as seperate powers and 2) could come up with a reasonable explanation as to how it works, I'd say go for it (then build a villain who would have some sort of defense for it as his nemesis).

 

Matt "Evil-GM?-ME?!" Frisbee