Klytus Posted June 21, 2003 Report Share Posted June 21, 2003 In the 4th Ed Ultimate Mentalist, it recommends buying invisibility as a mind trick (i.e., you are simply creating a mental fog that causes people to ignore you) with the Limitation: Not vs Mental Defense.as a -¼ Limiatation. Personaly, I find that too limiting, as many folks besides mentalists can have mental defense. Being visible to Mental Awareness however, makes much more sense to me. Since Mental Awareness is, in effect, a sense that is part of the Normal Sight group, how would I construct this sort of invisibility? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest white peregrine Posted June 21, 2003 Report Share Posted June 21, 2003 I was actually thinking of something along similar lines. the thing is I was going to limit to Only via Direct Observation/Hero can sense targets. a little cumbersome but it was a working title. heh basically, if the target could see the hero directly with his own senses he could not see the hero. if the target was in another room though watching through closed circuit cameras he see the hero...you could record the hero on tape as he was not really invisible except in the targets mind. like I said, it's rough but I think you get the idea. ...as far as your question...I would just go with invisibility with Not vs Mental Awareness and call it -1/4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JmOz Posted June 22, 2003 Report Share Posted June 22, 2003 Don't sweat the small stuff, stick the -1/4 on it and call it good. Build the power to cover the whole sight group... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monolith Posted June 22, 2003 Report Share Posted June 22, 2003 I would just use the -1/4 Limitation, but then define that Limitation as "Not Against Someone With Mental Powers Or Mental Awareness." That would seem to do the trick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lightray Posted June 22, 2003 Report Share Posted June 22, 2003 Definately a -1/4 limitation. Compare with the "Noisy" option under the Visible limitiation -- where the Visible Power is not Visible to everyone, but just to a substantial or significant group of persons. Your group of persons = people with Mental Awareness. Thus, -1/4 limitation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristopher Posted June 22, 2003 Report Share Posted June 22, 2003 Why Mental Awareness? Mental defense would be more appropriate. Psychic Invisibility would be a power that affects the mind. Mental Defense protects the mind from powers. Mental Awareness would tell a character that a mental power is being used "over there," but wouldn't necessarily counteract the actual invisibility, depending on how the Psychic Invisibility is explained. Maybe it would be too cumbersome, but somehow basing the effect on ECV might be another solution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Worldmaker Posted June 22, 2003 Report Share Posted June 22, 2003 How about this?: Clouding Men's Minds: Invisibility to Sight and Hearing Groups, No Fringe, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (60 Active Points); Not vs. Mechanical Senses (-1/2), Not vs. Characters With at Least 5 Points of Mental Defense (-1/4). Total cost 34 points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrosshairCollie Posted June 22, 2003 Report Share Posted June 22, 2003 I'd probably go with 10 points of Mental Def, since you have to have 5 points to have any (minimum cost and all that). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristopher Posted June 22, 2003 Report Share Posted June 22, 2003 Originally posted by CrosshairCollie I'd probably go with 10 points of Mental Def, since you have to have 5 points to have any (minimum cost and all that). A) I never paid any attention to that rule. No one I've ever played with has paid any attention to that rule. A 10 EGO and 5 APs of Mental Defense would be 7 total Mental Defense, right? At that point, leave it at 5, and who cares. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klytus Posted June 22, 2003 Author Report Share Posted June 22, 2003 Originally posted by Kristopher Why Mental Awareness? Mental defense would be more appropriate. Psychic Invisibility would be a power that affects the mind. Mental Defense protects the mind from powers. I think it is because simply having mental defense makes it far to easy for the Invisibility to be comprimised. Mental Defenses are common enough in my games that it would be worth a -1 Limitation on this power, thus making it almost useless. Mental Awareness, however, is not that common. I also think that needing mental awareness to "see" someone using psionic invisibility just makes more sense to me. The way I see it, Psionic Invisibility is not so much as commanding another person to ignore you, but generating enough "psychic static" that they simply don't notice you - a Sombody Else's Problem Field. Having a mind shielded against direct psychic assault is not helpful in defending against this. A mind that can "see" psionics and psionic effects, however, is not only able to "see" the static, but see through it as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Worldmaker Posted June 22, 2003 Report Share Posted June 22, 2003 Originally posted by Klytus I also think that needing mental awareness to "see" someone using psionic invisibility just makes more sense to me. The way I see it, Psionic Invisibility is not so much as commanding another person to ignore you, but generating enough "psychic static" that they simply don't notice you - a Sombody Else's Problem Field. Having a mind shielded against direct psychic assault is not helpful in defending against this. A mind that can "see" psionics and psionic effects, however, is not only able to "see" the static, but see through it as well. Mental Defense is pretty rare in the Guardians Universe... but then so are mentalists. As for Mental Awareness... the invisibility only covers sight and hearing. Since it has mental special effects, its a mental power, ALIMC, and thus visible to Mental Awareness already. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrosshairCollie Posted June 23, 2003 Report Share Posted June 23, 2003 Reflex from most games I've been in ... after about the third game, 3/4s or better of the group has 5 points of mental defense bought through a focus that the group's technowiz built. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Worldmaker Posted June 23, 2003 Report Share Posted June 23, 2003 Originally posted by CrosshairCollie Reflex from most games I've been in ... after about the third game, 3/4s or better of the group has 5 points of mental defense bought through a focus that the group's technowiz built. Ah. Such tech isn't possible currently in my gameworld. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocMan Posted June 23, 2003 Report Share Posted June 23, 2003 I think I'm gonna have to side with the Mental Defense school here. Psychic invisibility works because the mentalist is broadcasting a thought that makes people ignore his presence. That thought has to penetrate the subject's brains for him to be invisible. If someone has the wrong class of mind, or defenses that block out the thought, it wouldn't be as effective. I'm thinking it should really be bought as a Mind Control, only one command "Ignore me", Area effect, Reduced by range, invisible power effects. Then you're putting dice rolled vs mental defense. You also get the effect of Guy 1: There he is! Guy 2: Where did he go? Guy 1: Where did who go? Guy 2: The guy we were after? Guy 1: I thought you saw somebody? Guy 2: Saw who? Guy 1: I dunno. Lunch? Guy 2: Sounds good... Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEmerged Posted June 23, 2003 Report Share Posted June 23, 2003 Speaking for my own campaigns, I have a long-standing rule that Mental Defense is considered a Figured Attribute, not a power, and that everyone gets those "free" MD points from EGO automatically just like they do with PD and ED. This applies as a blanket, standing rule regardless of genre if I'm GM. I also have another oddity: the fact that Mental Powers give Mental Awareness for free bugs me. I long ago separated it, and still require characters that want it to buy it. Which brings us to the specific question of psychic invisibility. Invisibility is usually an exception to the Three Sense rule, but one can easily rule an "active invis" of this nature would broadcast a psi signature and hence be visible to the Mental Group -- and therefore, trigger Mental Awareness (which only allows people to detect that mental powers are being used, after all). Of course, Mental Awareness isn't targetting by default so this may not help people as much as it sounds... On the other hand, 10pts of MD isn't going to be nearly as unusual in my campaigns as it would it many others. 5 MD is going to be downright common, in fact, probably 1/4th of the population at minimum if mental powers are known to exist. Personally, I usually build "psychic invisibility" with a -1/2 "only versus living targets" limitation, and the assumption that if it isn't bought IPE to Mental than it'll trigger appropriate mental senses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest white peregrine Posted June 23, 2003 Report Share Posted June 23, 2003 Originally posted by Worldmaker How about this?: Clouding Men's Minds: Invisibility to Sight and Hearing Groups, No Fringe, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (60 Active Points); Not vs. Mechanical Senses (-1/2), Not vs. Characters With at Least 5 Points of Mental Defense (-1/4). Total cost 34 points. I like this version and probably what I would go with. although, what happens if the person is in powered armor? the idea is that the target would not see the hero but given the write up one could say otherwise... also, would look at something along the lines of Only vs People he can sense. the reason here being that we are assuming the hero is targeting minds to make them not see him. this inturn would make me believe that the hero would have to percieve the target before he could use this ability on them. makes sense from the stand point that all the mental "attack" powers basically require the hero to know where the target is. Only vs Perceived Targets (-1/4) could probably be worth more but I don't think so, especially since we're talkin a mentalist here... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Osprey Posted June 23, 2003 Report Share Posted June 23, 2003 Originally posted by TheEmerged Speaking for my own campaigns, I have a long-standing rule that Mental Defense is considered a Figured Attribute, not a power, and that everyone gets those "free" MD points from EGO automatically just like they do with PD and ED. This applies as a blanket, standing rule regardless of genre if I'm GM. I also have another oddity: the fact that Mental Powers give Mental Awareness for free bugs me. I long ago separated it, and still require characters that want it to buy it. I have the same rule about figured MD. I only allow sensing of mental powers one posesses unless Awareness is purchased. (Someone with Only Ego Attack can't sense Mind Control, but they can sense other Ego Attacks). Originally posted by Worldmaker How about this?: Clouding Men's Minds: Invisibility to Sight and Hearing Groups, No Fringe, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (60 Active Points); Not vs. Mechanical Senses (-1/2), Not vs. Characters With at Least 5 Points of Mental Defense (-1/4). Total cost 34 points. I think it SHOULD have a fringe! The effect is actually that his Shadow is still visible. He Knows.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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