Alternate Swords, cuz Katanas are overdone!

[Markdoc]

Re: Alternate Swords, cuz Katanas are overdone!

 

I like a surprise to my weapon. Like a Hunting Sword with a nice pistol built into the hilt - difficult to use properly' date=' but what a [i']shock [/i]when you do!

 

EDIT - Or, in an alternate era and place, a pinfire sword gun.

 

That's actually a pretty good idea - there were lots of these. A couple of weeks ago, my frend John came to Europe for a visit (well, also to get married) and we spent a "boy's week" prior to the wedding. One of the places we went is the national museum here which has a whole display of "combiweapons" from the renaissance. My particular favourite is the beautifully inlaid battleaxe/double flintlock pistol, which actually looks reasonably functional, but there's cane swords, virtually every combination of blade and pistol (including a matchlock/halberd) and some wacky guns (6-barrelled matchlock pistol, anyone?)

 

Trouble is, if you used something like this in a movie, 90% of the audience would assume you made it up and laugh

 

cheers, Mark

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Alternate Swords, cuz Katanas are overdone!

 

That's actually a pretty good idea - there were lots of these. A couple of weeks ago, my frend John came to Europe for a visit (well, also to get married) and we spent a "boy's week" prior to the wedding. One of the places we went is the national museum here which has a whole display of "combiweapons" from the renaissance. My particular favourite is the beautifully inlaid battleaxe/double flintlock pistol, which actually looks reasonably functional, but there's cane swords, virtually every combination of blade and pistol (including a matchlock/halberd) and some wacky guns (6-barrelled matchlock pistol, anyone?)

 

Trouble is, if you used something like this in a movie, 90% of the audience would assume you made it up and laugh

 

cheers, Mark

 

I am so in lust with some of the wacky gunpowder weapons of the era. Gunsmthing was really coming into its own as an artform, and there are a lot of beautiful custom guns in museum sets. I've wanted to build a replica of the double barreled wheellock pistol from the Gratz armory colection for YEARS.

[Bismark]

Re: Alternate Swords, cuz Katanas are overdone!

 

To add my 2 pennies-worth to the above posts:

 

'Half-swording' was often done with bog-standard swords (both 1-H and the longer varieties of 'war sword') - the practitioners are usually wearing plate gauntlets (whether or not they have the full set of plate armour), so a ricasso that far up the blade is unnecessary

 

It is the use of these kind of 'half-swording' techniques that renders the myth that the 1-H sword was just a status symbol during the plate era (because it could not get through the armour) obsolete

 

You can get the sword tip to move both fast and precisely using this technique - just what you need to strike at the joints in the armour or at the eyeslit etc. I am not saying it is easy because it isn't - not remotely - but it can be done, and that is why it appears in those fighting manuals.

 

Back on topic of interesting weapons, you could try a pallash (sabre predecessor with a straight blade):

 

This was usually sharpened on the back edge for only a few centimetres, and often had a blunt section on the leading edge of the blade just in front of the hilt. The quillons curved forwards, and the idea was to put a finger 'in the hole' as it were, to increase the power of a cut.

 

It was popular with steppe nomads and the like (see Avar, Khazar, Magyar) during the Dark Ages. Eventually replaced by the 'true' sabre, but it made a bit of a comeback in the late Middle Ages and Renaissance period (I have seen one as part of the panoply of a Polish Winged Hussar - who also had a large estoc, a mace and 2 pistols )

 

BTW, do not confuse a true rapier with the civilian or fencing variety - the military ones are actually pretty robust, often hexagonal or pentagonal in cross-section (and incidentally have a different origin to the estoc or tuck - which was usually triangular or square in cross-section).

 

As mentioned above, rapiers are useless for cutting, but it is rather scary how little force needs to be applied to a thrust with one to penetrate flesh to a frightening depth:eek: (where the user runs the risk of the weapon getting stuck - brownie points to GURPS for the ules to cover this )

[gewing]

Re: Alternate Swords, cuz Katanas are overdone!

 

Some good links there

I've always been fond of the Schiavona as well... it's more or less the sword that inspired the various basket hilted backswords that became all the rage in the 17th century

 

I've always been quite fond of leaf blades too...I ran a somewhat Crowstyle Dark Champions one on one with my ex-GF where she played a crime victim who had become an avatar of the Morrigan, and she used a classic celtic leaf blade short sword.

 

Yeah...Katana's are overdone...good thread.

 

 

 

As an alternative to the overdone katana, but filling afaik EXACTLY the same style function, is the German Grosse Messer.

 

I have always liked the Spanish (iirc) Falcata, a forward curved blade.

 

The Philipino Barong is a multipurpose utility knife as well as a weapon.

 

Another kind of fun variation is to use fairly short versions of some of the pole arms. The Glaive, Nagamaki, Naginata, iirc had versions that filled more or less the same role as a Greatsword, particularly once the Halfsword techniqes were used with the Greatsword.

 

 

 

 

OH, I have always mocked so many of the Role playing games with their swords that were too heavy for normal humans to use for any length of time.

I love the COmputer/XBOX game Morrowwind, but when you look at the weight of some of the swords...

 

 

Last week I found a reference with a picture of a sword that approached the weight of the Daedric Katana in Morrowind.

 

It was an executioners sword, I forget what culture, but it was a scimitar style curved blade with a long two handed grip. It apparently weighed

.

.

.

wait for it

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

69 lbs!!!!!

[gewing]

Re: Alternate Swords, cuz Katanas are overdone!

 

Try that with most hand and half swords and you'll be lucky to keep your fingers - few (if any) hand and half swords had the blunted section of blade (properly called a Ricasso). This is a feature of some late medieval greatswords, but although I've seen very many real hand and a half swords, I have never seen one with a ricasso. Hand and half swords are slightly heavier, but not a great deal longer in the blade than simple longswords/broadswords, so a ricasso is not necessary

 

 

 

Actually, late medieval/early renaissance rapiers are generally much heavier than the modern versions we see more frequently, and a slashing cut with the tip (the top few inches of the blade) was quite capable of cutting throats, removing fingers or dealing disabling and potentially lethal cuts to groin, arm or thigh - as long as your target wasn't armoured. The first book on rapier technique- Opera Nova, written in 1536 by Achillio Marozzo de Bologne, devotes most of its techniques to cutting strokes. Rapiers of the 16th century still had blades that were 1 - 1 1/2 inches wide at the base, and look like lighter versions of the longsword with a slightly elaborated hilt. This *was* a battle weapon and was widely used together with a buckler by spanish soldiers. It wasn't until Saviolo (late 17th century) that the point becomes the preferred method of attack and it's only after this that the rapier gets both a lighter (and shorter) blade - and only after this it becomes basically a dress/duel weapon, before evolving into the smallsword, which essentially replaced the rapier in the 18th century.

 

 

 

 

Some misconceptions here - the katana is designed for a drawing cut, while European long/broad swords were designed for a percussion cut, but they are both cutting weapons. It's also a common misconception that you can cut metal armour with a sword. You can't, generally. European swords were designed to cut exposed flesh and stab at unarmoured spots. Anyone who just hacks at armour with their sword is as likely to simply break it as to make a hole in the armour.

 

You can see a variety of tests with reconstructed weapons here

http://www.thehaca.com/Videos/NTCvids/testingbladesandmaterials.htm

 

and the results are the same as those obtained by the Medieval Heritage society in Britain.

 

It is true that European swords were more robust than the katana, and would stand up to more abuse on armor (even you can't cut into a helmet, a solid whack upside the head is going to affect the guy wearing it...). However, katanas were also designed to be used against armoured foes - and NO, japanese armour is not made of lacquered bamboo - it's made of steel, and if anything is heavier and clumsier than the European kind. Contemporary japanese writings make it plain that breaking a katana on an enemies armour was not a rare event. Hence the increasing popularity of polearms, both en masse and as individual weapons.

 

cheers, Mark

 

 

 

Sorry I didn't snip, but...

 

I thought that the steel Japanese armor was a later development, and that many of the earlier armors had some steel, some leather, some bamboo, etc...

[gewing]

Re: Alternate Swords, cuz Katanas are overdone!

 

True most bastard swords didn't have a ricasso but there are illistrations in Fiore, Meyer, Tallhoffer and others where they are fighting half sword. Most of the blade really wasn't sharpened because you didn't cut with the lower half of the blade so what would be the point in sharpening it and making it more prone to cracking.

 

The earlier blades you metioned are classified as side swords and yes Marozzo and Silver both wrote about the uses of the weapon.

 

I'd like to read some of Silver's work.

 

I have the Tallhoffer Fechtbuch reprint, it is very impressive.

[gewing]

Re: Alternate Swords, cuz Katanas are overdone!

 

I am so in lust with some of the wacky gunpowder weapons of the era. Gunsmthing was really coming into its own as an artform' date=' and there are a lot of beautiful custom guns in museum sets. I've wanted to build a replica of the double barreled wheellock pistol from the Gratz armory colection for YEARS.[/quote']

 

 

I doubt they would be fun to shoot, but the scottish all metal pistols with the ball on the end of the pistol grip would have worked pretty well as clubs or hammers, At a glance, that is.

[Markdoc]

Re: Alternate Swords, cuz Katanas are overdone!

 

To add my 2 pennies-worth to the above posts:

 

'Half-swording' was often done with bog-standard swords (both 1-H and the longer varieties of 'war sword') - the practitioners are usually wearing plate gauntlets (whether or not they have the full set of plate armour), so a ricasso that far up the blade is unnecessary

 

Ummmm. No. Plate gauntlets - even the most intricate - don't have plate on the *inside* of your hand. You couldn't hold anything if they did. You wore either a leather glove or cloth under your gauntlet. It's possible that you might have chain under cloth, but I'm not aware of any such thing actually existing. So you'd be grabbing the blade with a lightly protected hand and then "jabbing" really hard - which is as good a way of slicing your hand right open as I can imagine.

 

It is the use of these kind of 'half-swording' techniques that renders the myth that the 1-H sword was just a status symbol during the plate era (because it could not get through the armour) obsolete

 

You can get the sword tip to move both fast and precisely using this technique - just what you need to strike at the joints in the armour or at the eyeslit etc. I am not saying it is easy because it isn't - not remotely - but it can be done, and that is why it appears in those fighting manuals.

 

Actually, if you follow the links posted the "hand on blade" technique is *not* used in those manuals. Indeed, I'm unaware of any renaissance manual that teaches such a technique, except for those for greatswords which have a ricasso.

 

I do agree that the regular broadsword or the bastard sword remained more than just a status weapon - with practice, you can get quite precise with the point, especially since armour contains many places where the tip will naturally slide into something soft and hurty - armpits and groin being the obvious examples - simply by sliding the tip of the blade along the armour. It's why late period swords emphasise the point more and why late period armour spends so much effort trying to block those "slide lines" with knurls and flutes. The bastard sword perhaps became popular because having a second hand on the hilt (not the blade) made this easier.

 

cheers, Mark

[Markdoc]

Re: Alternate Swords, cuz Katanas are overdone!

 

I doubt they would be fun to shoot' date=' but the scottish all metal pistols with the ball on the end of the pistol grip would have worked pretty well as clubs or hammers, At a glance, that is.[/quote']

 

I don't know how well they worked, but they were *meant* to be used like that - pistol discharge was normally at very short range, and often used to soften the enemy up immediately before getting stuck in. You might not always have time to stow your pistol and draw a blade.

 

It's why some of them have that whacking great knob on the end of teh handle.

 

cheers, Mark

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Alternate Swords, cuz Katanas are overdone!

 

I doubt they would be fun to shoot' date=' but the scottish all metal pistols with the ball on the end of the pistol grip would have worked pretty well as clubs or hammers, At a glance, that is.[/quote']

 

I've shot one (a functioning replica... Dixie gunworks IIRC). They have a weird kick to them due to the bannana shaped handle, but they aren't anywhere near as hard to handle as a proper 16th century wheellock... The wheel locks I've fired are all frickin huge (for pistols, anyway... around .70 cal), and the only thing I can compare them to is a sawed off shotgun... The first time I got to fire one, I nearly brained myself. That earlier style was usually a cavalry sidearm, the kind used by scots Border Reivers and german Schwartzritiers (sp?), and I didn't realize that they're often fired two handed.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Alternate Swords, cuz Katanas are overdone!

 

I don't know how well they worked, but they were *meant* to be used like that - pistol discharge was normally at very short range, and often used to soften the enemy up immediately before getting stuck in. You might not always have time to stow your pistol and draw a blade.

 

It's why some of them have that whacking great knob on the end of teh handle.

 

cheers, Mark

 

Yep. Exactly right.

[Markdoc]

Re: Alternate Swords, cuz Katanas are overdone!

 

Sorry I didn't snip, but...

 

I thought that the steel Japanese armor was a later development, and that many of the earlier armors had some steel, some leather, some bamboo, etc...

 

Leather armour yes - hardened lacquered leather for light troops stayed in fashion for a long time. But then hardened leather stayed in fashion in Europe too, for the same reason - it was relatively cheap.

 

I know of at least one suit of bamboo armour, but it was for ceremonial use (I've also seen reference to european knightly armour made from paper maché, for the same purpose). But as far as we know samurai didn't go into battle in bamboo armour any more than French knights did in plate made of paper.

 

The earliest japanese armour we have copies of are called tankô or "small armour" (sometimes translated "short armour"). They are simple cuirasses made of several laced metal plates and date back to the 5th or 6th century (ie: well before the samurai arose). The older Yamato era armours haven't survived, but grave carvings of them look a bit like tankô, so they are probably also metal (could be hardened leather: it's hard to say from a crude stone carving )

 

Hardened leather was used to make some of the fantastic crests on helmets, but the bowl of the helmet is always metal, apart from ceremonial parade helmets which are made of very light leather and paper.

 

Bamboo was used to make shields for sieges, stakes for archers and pretty much everything else you can imagine - just not armour.

 

cheers, Mark

[Bismark]

Re: Alternate Swords, cuz Katanas are overdone!

 

Ummmm. No. Plate gauntlets - even the most intricate - don't have plate on the *inside* of your hand. You couldn't hold anything if they did. You wore either a leather glove or cloth under your gauntlet. It's possible that you might have chain under cloth, but I'm not aware of any such thing actually existing. So you'd be grabbing the blade with a lightly protected hand and then "jabbing" really hard - which is as good a way of slicing your hand right open as I can imagine.

 

 

 

Actually, if you follow the links posted the "hand on blade" technique is *not* used in those manuals. Indeed, I'm unaware of any renaissance manual that teaches such a technique, except for those for greatswords which have a ricasso.

 

I do agree that the regular broadsword or the bastard sword remained more than just a status weapon - with practice, you can get quite precise with the point, especially since armour contains many places where the tip will naturally slide into something soft and hurty - armpits and groin being the obvious examples - simply by sliding the tip of the blade along the armour. It's why late period swords emphasise the point more and why late period armour spends so much effort trying to block those "slide lines" with knurls and flutes. The bastard sword perhaps became popular because having a second hand on the hilt (not the blade) made this easier.

 

cheers, Mark

 

Cheers Mark - I stand corrected... []

 

BTW, where the Japanese tankô is concerned - the stuff I saw (which was the top end of the market, as it were) looked like a crude analogue of the Roman lorica segmentata - in bronze.

 

Question for you (as you appear to know your stuff) - when did Japan come out of the Bronze Age? - I heard it was about 300AD [just curious...]

 

Back to the original thread topic - try this for an exotic sword (exotic because it was not exactly popular or widespread judging by the paucity of surviving examples): the flammard (1-H analogue of the flamberge). Wavy-edged blade, sometimes with an early pattern basket hilt as well.

[L. Marcus]

Re: Alternate Swords, cuz Katanas are overdone!

 

Japan never had a Bronze Age. The went from Stone straight to Iron.

[Markdoc]

Re: Alternate Swords, cuz Katanas are overdone!

 

Question for you (as you appear to know your stuff) - when did Japan come out of the Bronze Age? - I heard it was about 300AD [just curious...]

 

Japan never had a Bronze Age. The went from Stone straight to Iron.

 

That's right. The Yayoi period (c. 300 BC - AD 300 AD) is sometimes referred to as the Japanese bronze age, since bronze items start appearing then - but they seem to have been mostly imported. However the Japanese switched over to iron very rapidly during this era. The reason is probably that Japan has no natural source of tin: therefore, no bronze. They had plenty of iron, though.

 

cheers, Mark

[gewing]

Re: Alternate Swords, cuz Katanas are overdone!

 

I don't know how well they worked, but they were *meant* to be used like that - pistol discharge was normally at very short range, and often used to soften the enemy up immediately before getting stuck in. You might not always have time to stow your pistol and draw a blade.

 

It's why some of them have that whacking great knob on the end of teh handle.

 

cheers, Mark

 

 

 

That was kind of what I figured.

[Maelstrom]

Re: Alternate Swords, cuz Katanas are overdone!

 

I love the flamberge -- a zweihander with a blade that was serpentine for some of the length, like a kris.

 

Also, the qaddara -- IIRC, with a slightly curving damascene blade and an ivory teardrop handle, on the one I handled.