Firewing vs. Gravitar?

[Kirby]

Re: Firewing vs. Gravitar?

 

Now's the time I'm going to Channel some Chuckg, so prepare for sarcasm and snippitiness:

You have this exactly backwards' date=' Gravatar [[i']sic[/i]] is powerful, and Menton is Munchkin.

 

If Menton wants you dead, you die; unless you have fairly high level of Hardend Resistant mental defense. Yeah that's something you ought to just assume you need.

First, backwards would be Gravitar is powerful, Menton is both. It's pretty obvious to me you don't know what munchkin is.

 

Gravitar is merely built to take on groups of weaker foes without using the tired default tactic of pick a guy' date=' hammer him into GM's option, repeat.[/quote']Oh, the irony! She does use the same trick you reference, but she does it en masse as opposed to one at a time. If she can't, she leaves. (Hopefully this will change when CU II comes out.)

 

Destroyer by contrast is built to take on huge single opponents' date=' he wins against groups merely by virtue of power, he performs much better against powerful foes than Gravitar does. I don't like his build it feels like a reasonable villian with all the active points arbitrairily doubled.[/quote']I don't like Destroyer myself, but you're obviously uninformed about him. To begin with, he's The Master Villain for HERO and always has been. You send neither one single opponent nor groups of 350 point heroes against him in a slugfest; you send teams of experienced people. If you do the former, you are a munchkin and a poor GM. Destroyer is one you face *after* going through his minions and his elite supers. *Then* you face him and he uses the cliche "get away" card after a tough fight.

 

Gravitar is markedly less munchkin than 4th. Ed. Eurostar. (hello' date=' our CVs average about 3-4 points above other villians of our point value, and we all have more speed than our concepts realy justify)[/quote']

If you're going to participate in a debate, do some research and bring your Cliff Notes. There's a reason Eurostar was seemingly over-the-top: they were the elite villains of Europe (plus Durak). Fiacho didn't just take anybody. He had the best of the best (or the worst of the worst, depending on your point of view). Durak was the ultimate brick in 4th Ed (with Grond being a close 2nd), Mentalla was about the 2nd most powerful well-known mentalist. Each member was essentially the most powerful villain of their type that would work well in a team under Fiacho's command. That was their concept and they fit it nearly perfectly.

 

End Chuckg channelling.

 

:sigh: It seems this thread keeps getting sidetracked. I don't know if there's reason to return. Omegaplex, I hope you received your answer.

[Questar]

Re: Firewing vs. Gravitar?

 

Which is dismissing the point. The point was' date=' before you scoff when people mention eurostar, remember that a lot of posters here have more experience with a much more powerful eurostar than currently exists, and are speaking from that experience. [i']That was it.[/i] Further, I think you're blowing a simple statement of regret over a fondly remembered villian team being neutered way out of proportion. It used to be you could say "we took down eurostar" and everyone would know to be duly impressed. Now they just shrug and say: "they aren't so bad." What's more, I don't recall having said anything to the extent that "nothing should change." Rather, I said, essentially, that I thought the way the changes were made were heavy handed fashion (and proposed an alternative) - and more importantly: were disregarded by some of us. The main thrust was why some people would read "Eurostar" differently than you do.

 

 

 

And yet, what you are saying doesn't jive with the reality of how they were presented in 4th edition; they did make sense, and they worked very well. That's why so many people used them, and remember them so well. With the exception of their speed scores being a too high (for my game, at least, but others have made the same comment) they worked, in their role as super-terrorists like a charm. Psychology is just as important as powers. They were scary, and a worthy challenge.

 

Also, you have to remember, 4th edition didn't really have much in the way of a consistent Universe, and Classic Enemies wasn't intended to fill that role. It was just a collection of favorites, who came from campaigns with different power levels. And, it was clear there was no uniform champions campaign out there. It was explicit about this in the intro. As such, most powerful in what universe? Most of those books were ala carte - choose your entre - in their presentation rather than a cohesive whole. And I can recall at least one poster saying they had to make them more powerful to use them (eyeballs out of sockets).

 

None of this is to say the new team doesn't have some merits - they work for a certain kind of game/scenario, but I confess I don't like the roster as well, or the fact that I simply couldn't use the 5th Edition Eurostar in my game because they used to be one of the primary menaces - and the new team simply couldn't keep up. I don't think its fair to assume people have to give up their memories, or their preferences, because their is a new edition. Nor do I think things have to be static.

 

I have to second a lot of things you've said here, Von D-Man. It's frankly surprising to me that such a popular team from 4E should be retconned so extremely as to make them into something totally different. To many of us, Eurostar was the "Doc D" of villain teams. If 5E Doctor Destroyer had been toned down to the status of a second-leaguer, would that seem right?

(Instead, 5E went the other way, ballooning him into a cosmic deity so powerful that he is useless in most campaigns unless you're in a mood to humiliate the PC's. But at least they didn't rewrite his concept the way Eurostar's concept was rewritten.)

 

I am one who prefers the 4E Eurostar, and puzzled that whoever did the new version didn't seem to recognize the qualities in the team that made them such a popular villain group.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Firewing vs. Gravitar?

 

You have this exactly backwards, Gravitar is powerful, and Menton is Munchkin.

 

If Menton wants you dead, you die; unless you have fairly high level of Hardend Resistant mental defense. Yeah that's something you ought to just assume you need.

 

Gravitar is merely built to take on groups of weaker foes without using the tired default tactic of pick a guy, hammer him into GM's option, repeat. Destroyer by contrast is built to take on huge single opponents, he wins against groups merely by virtue of power, he performs much better against powerful foes than Gravitar does. I don't like his build it feels like a reasonable villian with all the active points arbitrairily doubled.

 

Gravitar is markedly less munchkin than 4th. Ed. Eurostar. (hello, our CVs average about 3-4 points above other villians of our point value, and we all have more speed than our concepts realy justify)

 

Nitpick, but resistant mental defense doesn't do anything with Menton. None of his telepathic attacks do killing damage. Your probably thinking of his Psychokinetic Rending attack, which is Pen, yes, but its physical based.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Firewing vs. Gravitar?

 

Kirby may be quitting, but I'm not.

 

Re: your explanation- its blatantly inadequate. You accuse her of munckinism, as near as I can tell, on the grounds that she is tough, has powerful attacks, and good movement. The 100 STR TK is no more active points than any number of other master villains have, and the only thing she can MPA it with is the area gravity. Likewise, while she can up her defense with the force wall, she can only do it by sacrificing a whole bunch of her offensive options.

 

The only qualitative complaint I see is the two area attacks, and while they are both big and buff, one of them is totally negated by three different things, one of them rather common. The other, the area gravity, only works on non-brick non-teleporter non-desolids, essentially, and can be countered by proper tactics. Yeah, the area gravity is potent. Its also hardly some kind of autofire double pen monstrousity.

 

Re: the Crowns, you completely ignore a couple things. One, they all have flight, with fairly decent inches. Not only can this be used to help get them out of the area gravity, it also provides mobility that reduces the likelihood of multiple people getting caught in the first place. Second, all but one of the Crowns has either an exotic attack that effects her ( one of which, once landed, can be maintained even if she does catch him with the area gravity ), or flash/darkness. Third, Force can Missile Reflect Gravitar's own attacks back at her. Fourth, they all have power defense, totally negating two of Gravitar's nastier tricks.

 

This isn't even getting into the fact that Dark Seraph can kill her with two hits of his Drain Body. . .

 

So yes, I say with fair confidence that if Gravitar took on the Crowns, she'd end the fight running, at best. She'd definitely do nowhere near as good as against Eurostar.

 

Re: the Ultimates, do you really think I was comparing them to *her*? I was comparing them to *Eurostar*. And yes, after further analysis, I do think they'd do quite a bit better. Radium can do almost as much damage as Mentalla, most of the team have much better mobility than Eurostar, they can keep her Entangled most of the fight, and Blackstar is totally immune to her unless he's attacking.

 

Do I think they'd win? Probably not. And they can't pursue her if she breaks contact, either. But they'd definitely take alot more phases to go down than the one Eurostar did. Making them the second team Gravitar can't kill in one attack.

 

Re: your attempted refutation- there's no contradiction. Yes, Gravitar has a whole bunch of weaknesses. Yes, she doesn't actually need her two area attacks to trash Eurostar.

 

This is because Eurostar is poorly set up to exploit her weaknesses, a flaw on Eurostar's part, not her's. Most of the attacks you mentioned are totally irrelevant. Fiacho's autoflechettes can only do pecking damage, at best, and the other two have no range. Durak isn't strong enough to do meaningful damage, and he doesn't have any option but physical. Scorpia's specials all depend on piercing skin, which isn't happeneing here. Ultrasonique's attacks are either too weak, or target unnecessary senses.

 

Mentalla is, still, the only one with a meaningful chance to take down Gravitar. We knew this beforehand. Absent the two area attacks, her first, or second, action is still going to be "smash Mentalla", which still results in Eurostar having no way to effectively hurt her.

 

Compare this to the Crown's of Krim. They also have exotic attacks, but unlike Eurostar, they actually have them on multiple characters, at potency great enough to matter. A weakness, btw, does not have to be so extreme as to make you impotent to be a weakness.

 

Long story short: throughout this, you are assuming that Eurostar should be able to beat her. This is an assumption not based in fact.

 

( btw, what the hell's with this complaining about Eurostar being nerfed? I've seen the 4e Eurostar, and the 5e team is, if anything, more potent. Yeah, no Bora for the unstoppable escape, meh )

[Metaphysician]

Re: Firewing vs. Gravitar?

 

Now's the time I'm going to Channel some Chuckg, so prepare for sarcasm and snippitiness:

First, backwards would be Gravitar is powerful, Menton is both. It's pretty obvious to me you don't know what munchkin is.

 

Oh, the irony! She does use the same trick you reference, but she does it en masse as opposed to one at a time. If she can't, she leaves. (Hopefully this will change when CU II comes out.)

So, a 50 STR Hold = a 30d6 EB?

 

No, she doesn't do the same thing en masse. She hits groups with a 75 active point attack, half as much as Destroyer and Takofanes do to single targets. Big difference. If she had area 100 STR TK, then you would see *me* complaining.

 

I don't like Destroyer myself, but you're obviously uninformed about him. To begin with, he's The Master Villain for HERO and always has been. You send neither one single opponent nor groups of 350 point heroes against him in a slugfest; you send teams of experienced people. If you do the former, you are a munchkin and a poor GM. Destroyer is one you face *after* going through his minions and his elite supers. *Then* you face him and he uses the cliche "get away" card after a tough fight.

You might want to reread what he said. He wasn't talking about the campaign usage for Dr Destroyer, he was talking about what his build would be most effective at. And I have to agree: he works best at taking single targets, and twhacking them into GM's Discretion. Hell, his only area attack is the 20d6 EB, which while buff, is hardly unstoppable to anyone with enough defense to belong anywhere near Dr D.

 

If you're going to participate in a debate, do some research and bring your Cliff Notes. There's a reason Eurostar was seemingly over-the-top: they were the elite villains of Europe (plus Durak). Fiacho didn't just take anybody. He had the best of the best (or the worst of the worst, depending on your point of view). Durak was the ultimate brick in 4th Ed (with Grond being a close 2nd), Mentalla was about the 2nd most powerful well-known mentalist. Each member was essentially the most powerful villain of their type that would work well in a team under Fiacho's command. That was their concept and they fit it nearly perfectly.

Looking at the 4e versions of Eurostar, I really am not seeing this "nerfing." Fiacho lost some points in characteristics, but he also gained vastly more martial maneuvers, more levels, more skills, and an array of useful gadgets. Durak didn't change significantly. Mentalla lost a bit of characteristics and traded out raw power for reduced END, but she also gained a point of speed, and Mind Scan. Scorpia and Feuermacher are both more powerful than their Terror, Inc. versions. Only Le Sonne/Ultrasonique actually lost power, and he at least gained a bigger VPP. And thats not counting the new recruit Der Westgote, who is downright terrifying.

 

Yes, Eurostar is no longer the foremost villain team; the Crowns of Krim are. OTOH, the Crowns of Krim hardly would even be recruitable candidates, anyway, and Eurostar is still a villain team capable of kicking starting hero ass.

 

Oh, and if you find this to be objectionable, think about this: Dr Destroyer now has major competition, in the form of Takofanes, Istvatha V'Han, a newer meaner buffer VIPER, a free and vengeful Menton, an updated Dr Yin Wu. . .

 

He may have gotten an upgrade over his prior high end version, but he also gained a *lot* more competition.

 

End Chuckg channelling.

 

:sigh: It seems this thread keeps getting sidetracked. I don't know if there's reason to return. Omegaplex, I hope you received your answer.

 

Btw, your Chuckg impression? Needs alot of work.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Firewing vs. Gravitar?

 

I have to second a lot of things you've said here, Von D-Man. It's frankly surprising to me that such a popular team from 4E should be retconned so extremely as to make them into something totally different. To many of us, Eurostar was the "Doc D" of villain teams. If 5E Doctor Destroyer had been toned down to the status of a second-leaguer, would that seem right?

(Instead, 5E went the other way, ballooning him into a cosmic deity so powerful that he is useless in most campaigns unless you're in a mood to humiliate the PC's. But at least they didn't rewrite his concept the way Eurostar's concept was rewritten.)

 

I am one who prefers the 4E Eurostar, and puzzled that whoever did the new version didn't seem to recognize the qualities in the team that made them such a popular villain group.

 

Um, no offense, but the concept of Eurostar was "elite European superteam bent on unification by conquest." There's nothing in this concept that necessitates they be able to beat anyone short of Dr Destroyer.

 

And, as I mentioned in the prior post, Dr Destroyer may have gotten upgraded, but he also gained alot more high end competition than before. His position is, if anything, downgraded relatively.

[Weldun]

Re: Firewing vs. Gravitar?

 

Did I say that?

[cynical sarcasm]Wow, what wonderful insight you have. When someone posts a point you don't like, put words into their mouth. Well done, Weldun. Well done indeed.[/cynical sarcasm]

 

If you go back and actually read what I wrote, you won't find that any where.

Guess what. I went back... ...AND I DID!

Quite frankly' date=' Gravitar is a munchkin build with a lame write-up... ...Her next two munchkin powers (which I seriously doubt any GM would allow a player to have) are the Flight UAA (AoE 7" radius!) and the 50 STR TK (AoE 11" radius!).[/quote']

Because that's an awful lot she doesn't need. This reinforces the part that she's a munchkin. If she's a full non-combat move away' date=' she needs just a 12- to [i']hit the hex[/i] her opponent is in. And if she misses by one or two hexes? No big deal, is it? She'd have to miss by 12 hexes before her AoE 50 STR TK would actually miss.

[Weldun]

Re: Firewing vs. Gravitar?

 

Take it with a grain of salt. Proper planning prevents piss-poor performance.

 

 

You did mentioned she was flashed, and that's about it, aside from the "protective cocoon" recoveries she took. You didn't mention anything else. Even if she was downtown, why didn't she fly straight up? Was there a 50+ story skyscraper above her? If she was using the AoE, did it not affect any of the buildings or civilians in a 22" diameter? (If it did, why weren't the PCs helping the civilians or trying to prevent building collapse?)

 

One can only respond with what is provided. I can't read your mind and say "Oh, of course she used that tactic and the PCs did this and that."

I have to back Kirby on this one. I recently had a villain get flashed for the majority of a turn, so, they flew straight up.

[Kirby]

Re: Firewing vs. Gravitar?

 

So' date=' what you're basically saying is [b']anyone with a AoE-radius, ranged attack is a Munchkin[/b]. At least with Gravitar, only one of these attacks can even do damage.

Your misconception is getting in the way.

 

Show me where I said "anyone with an AoE-radius, ranged attack is a munchkin." Here's a hint: I DIDN'T!.

(Hmm, doesn't look quite as good as "AND I DID!" Dang contractions.)

 

If you have the book and the willingness to read, check out Deadweight from Enemies of San Angelo, pg 38-9. He has gravity powers and guess what, one of them is a 50 STR TK AE 7" radius. (Personal immunity, no range.) He's not a munchkin build. Scratch your brain on that one.

[Questar]

Re: Firewing vs. Gravitar?

 

Um, no offense, but the concept of Eurostar was "elite European superteam bent on unification by conquest." There's nothing in this concept that necessitates they be able to beat anyone short of Dr Destroyer.

 

And, as I mentioned in the prior post, Dr Destroyer may have gotten upgraded, but he also gained alot more high end competition than before. His position is, if anything, downgraded relatively.

 

No offense taken. But you're simply mistaken. You should re-read the Eurostar write-up for both 4E and 5E, because the concept is far more than what you have described in both versions.

 

The write-up in 4E says "Eurostar sees themselves as the most powerful villain group in the world". And they weren't the only ones who saw themselves that way. Later in the write-up, they are described as "Perhaps the most ruthless and deadly team of paranormals ever assembled".

 

And certainly their stats gave them a lot of credibility in making that claim. That's why Von D-man was talking about how they used to be thought of as a Benchmark for villain teams, and that defeating them was considered something very impressive, worthy of bragging about.

 

The 5E version maintains the spirit of the claim, citing Fiacho's remark that "Eurostar does not rob banks. We wreck economies." And it also plainly says that "Eurostar has solidified its reputation as the most dangerous supervillain team on earth". That's a bit more than just an "elite supervillain team".

 

However, their 5E stats don't live up to that reputation. It seems to be a reputation built on past glory. They have become in reality little more than the "elite supervillain team" you term them. The fear of facing Eurostar has waned considerably from 4E to 5E and they are no longer considered that "benchmark" team that Von D-Man described.

 

That's how I interpreted Von D-Man's remarks, and that's what I was agreeing with. Their abilities do not live up to their billing as the world's most dangerous supervillain team. It's not really Eurostar, it is a different team with the same name.

[Weldun]

Re: Firewing vs. Gravitar?

 

Your misconception is getting in the way.

 

Show me where I said "anyone with an AoE-radius, ranged attack is a munchkin." Here's a hint: I DIDN'T!.

(Hmm, doesn't look quite as good as "AND I DID!" Dang contractions.)

 

If you have the book and the willingness to read, check out Deadweight from Enemies of San Angelo, pg 38-9. He has gravity powers and guess what, one of them is a 50 STR TK AE 7" radius. (Personal immunity, no range.) He's not a munchkin build. Scratch your brain on that one.

1) I don't have that book, no.

2) The write-up, based on the information that you have given, is wrong. His AoE should be 9" radius.

3) Fair enough. You had only implied the AoE=Munchkin, but have now clarified your position.

 

If you take a look at the quoted sections, however, you can see where it is very easily read that way. Namely, "her next two munchkin powers." I still fail to see how these two, specific powers are, "munchkin", when STR 100 TK is a far more likely candidate.

 

Now, as for any bad feelings that this debate may be generating... chill. This goes out to everyone.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Firewing vs. Gravitar?

 

Your misconception is getting in the way.

 

Show me where I said "anyone with an AoE-radius, ranged attack is a munchkin." Here's a hint: I DIDN'T!.

(Hmm, doesn't look quite as good as "AND I DID!" Dang contractions.)

 

If you have the book and the willingness to read, check out Deadweight from Enemies of San Angelo, pg 38-9. He has gravity powers and guess what, one of them is a 50 STR TK AE 7" radius. (Personal immunity, no range.) He's not a munchkin build. Scratch your brain on that one.

 

IIRC, he also is a street level thug with barely any power *other* than an area gravity TK.

 

. . .you know, if anything, I'd consider a 50 STR area TK hold to be *more* unbalanced if your supposed to be fighting Spider-man range street levelers. . .

 

So, care to explain why exactly Gravitar's construct is so bad? Is it the sheer size? The fact that she can throw it at range? Nothing inherent to the power at all, just the fact that she has other stuff?

 

( btw, I'm actually willing to grant you that the 12" UAA Flight is unbalanced. Its totally appropriate power, but it is a questionable one. If it didn't have three different negation conditions, one of them being Power Defense, I'd zatz it from her sheet in an instant )

[Metaphysician]

Re: Firewing vs. Gravitar?

 

No offense taken. But you're simply mistaken. You should re-read the Eurostar write-up for both 4E and 5E, because the concept is far more than what you have described in both versions.

 

The write-up in 4E says "Eurostar sees themselves as the most powerful villain group in the world". And they weren't the only ones who saw themselves that way. Later in the write-up, they are described as "Perhaps the most ruthless and deadly team of paranormals ever assembled".

 

And certainly their stats gave them a lot of credibility in making that claim. That's why Von D-man was talking about how they used to be thought of as a Benchmark for villain teams, and that defeating them was considered something very impressive, worthy of bragging about.

 

The 5E version maintains the spirit of the claim, citing Fiacho's remark that "Eurostar does not rob banks. We wreck economies." And it also plainly says that "Eurostar has solidified its reputation as the most dangerous supervillain team on earth". That's a bit more than just an "elite supervillain team".

 

However, their 5E stats don't live up to that reputation. It seems to be a reputation built on past glory. They have become in reality little more than the "elite supervillain team" you term them. The fear of facing Eurostar has waned considerably from 4E to 5E and they are no longer considered that "benchmark" team that Von D-Man described.

 

That's how I interpreted Von D-Man's remarks, and that's what I was agreeing with. Their abilities do not live up to their billing as the world's most dangerous supervillain team. It's not really Eurostar, it is a different team with the same name.

 

Looking at the two, I just don't see it. For one thing, it'd still be damn terrifying taking them on, because they don't operate on anything resembling traditional super villain style tactics. They fight like terrorists, complete with hostage situations and making sure the other guy is dead.

 

Also, I think you may be underestimating how destructive 5e Eurostar can be. Remember, one of the big things they've gained in the transition is a much longer skill list on Fiacho. That, more than anything else, can *really* contribute towards their ability to cause big damage, much moreso than an extra die or two of martial arts of energy blast damage.

 

*shrug* I can see what your saying, and I do see it somewhat. I think a big reason for this change in relative role is because, in 5e, the villain array in general has been buffed. The problem with Eurostar is, its hard to buff them proportionately without breaking their concept. I mean, honest question: would Eurostar really still be Eurostar if they were 700-1000 point villains striding Europe like angry demigods?

[Metaphysician]

Re: Firewing vs. Gravitar?

 

1) I don't have that book, no.

2) The write-up, based on the information that you have given, is wrong. His AoE should be 9" radius.

3) Fair enough. You had only implied the AoE=Munchkin, but have now clarified your position.

 

If you take a look at the quoted sections, however, you can see where it is very easily read that way. Namely, "her next two munchkin powers." I still fail to see how these two, specific powers are, "munchkin", when STR 100 TK is a far more likely candidate.

 

Now, as for any bad feelings that this debate may be generating... chill. This goes out to everyone.

 

I don't think the 100 STR TK is that bad, though yes, its alot more powerful than the area TK ( its the one power that gives her a shot, albeit a poor one, at beating Dr Destroyer ). In order to use it, she has to forgo any other multipower usage, leaving her with just the area TK as a secondary attack. . . and against anyone she actually *needs* to use the 100 STR TK on ( as opposed to being able to disable just as readily with 60 STR TK comboed with, say, an 18d6 EB ), the area gravity isn't really going to mean much.

[John T]

Re: Firewing vs. Gravitar?

 

As mentioned by several earlier posters, for me the ultimate winner in such a conflict would be The Story... and hopefully the PCs.

 

Regarding the issue of TK as attack, isn't there a provision for breaking out of TK using applicable movement powers such as Flight (aside from the obvious Teleport, which Firewing doesn't have... although I could certainly justify BUYING it on him...)

[Metaphysician]

Re: Firewing vs. Gravitar?

 

As mentioned by several earlier posters, for me the ultimate winner in such a conflict would be The Story... and hopefully the PCs.

 

Regarding the issue of TK as attack, isn't there a provision for breaking out of TK using applicable movement powers such as Flight (aside from the obvious Teleport, which Firewing doesn't have... although I could certainly justify BUYING it on him...)

 

Yep. IIRC, its along the lines of 5" movement = +5 strength ( though I can't remember where it covers this, help anyone? ). Thats why I don't think the area gravity is anywhere near as deadly as some do. Most characters can get out of it in a couple phases, between pushing strength and using some of their movement as extra force. Its just, that gives Gravitar some extra phases to use to wail on the opposition, hence why its worth the points it costs.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Firewing vs. Gravitar?

 

Yep. IIRC' date=' its along the lines of 5" movement = +5 strength ( though I can't remember where it covers this, help anyone? ). Thats why I don't think the area gravity is anywhere near as deadly as some do. Most characters can get out of it in a couple phases, between pushing strength and using some of their movement as extra force. Its just, that gives Gravitar some extra phases to use to wail on the opposition, hence why its worth the points it costs.[/quote']

 

The optional rule is that 2" of Flight or Leaping can be used as an additional +1 point of Strength instead of for movement. That's on 5E p. 238/ 5ER p. 365 under "Movement And Strength". That extra STR only applies for purposes of lifting or pushing, though, so it would be GM interpretation as to whether it would help against a particular use of TK. For Gravitar's AOE TK I could see it applying if she's increasing a person's weight, but if she's just holding them in the air it would be harder to justify how it would help. YMMV, of course.

 

And I'm happy to see that the heat of the debate on this thread has cooled back down to reasonable levels.

[Kirby]

Re: Firewing vs. Gravitar?

 

3) Fair enough. You had only implied the AoE=Munchkin, but have now clarified your position.

 

If you take a look at the quoted sections, however, you can see where it is very easily read that way. Namely, "her next two munchkin powers." I still fail to see how these two, specific powers are, "munchkin", when STR 100 TK is a far more likely candidate.

The 100 STR TK is a candidate, IMHO. But if you go back to look at what I stated, saying "next two" denotes that there has already been at least one other posted. While her AoE powers are munchkinized, I never implied that all were, nor that those were her only munchkin stats.

[Kirby]

Re: Firewing vs. Gravitar?

 

Regarding the issue of TK as attack' date=' isn't there a provision for breaking out of TK using applicable movement powers such as Flight (aside from the obvious Teleport, which Firewing doesn't have... although I could certainly justify BUYING it on him...)[/quote']

As an optional rule, the GM can allow characters to use their Flight or Leaping to enhance their ability to lift or push. Every 2" of Combat Movement becomes +1 point of STR. Any movement "velocity" used in this way cannot be used for movement, nor can it be used to increase the damage done by Combat Maneuvers and similar attacks which use the character's STR to do damage.

-Pg. 238, FREd

[Metaphysician]

Re: Firewing vs. Gravitar?

 

The optional rule is that 2" of Flight or Leaping can be used as an additional +1 point of Strength instead of for movement. That's on 5E p. 238/ 5ER p. 365 under "Movement And Strength". That extra STR only applies for purposes of lifting or pushing, though, so it would be GM interpretation as to whether it would help against a particular use of TK. For Gravitar's AOE TK I could see it applying if she's increasing a person's weight, but if she's just holding them in the air it would be harder to justify how it would help. YMMV, of course.

 

And I'm happy to see that the heat of the debate on this thread has cooled back down to reasonable levels.

 

I don't see why it wouldn't help in midair. After all, flight by its definition is moving through air. Its the base *strength* that one must wonder why it actually helps any, as once your floating in midair, there's nothing to exert on.

 

This would be, btw, why Gravitar has UAA Flight: to simulate using gravity to lift or throw around a character in spite of their strength.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Firewing vs. Gravitar?

 

The 100 STR TK is a candidate' date=' IMHO. But if you go back to look at what I stated, saying "next two" denotes that there has already been at least one other posted. While [i']her[/i] AoE powers are munchkinized, I never implied that all were, nor that those were her only munchkin stats.

 

Out of curiousity, could you explain exactly why her area of effect gravity power is munchkin, while Deadweight's nearly identical power isn't?

 

And I still fail to see why anything else on her sheet is so offensive; all the 1000 point villains have stuff just as nasty or worse. . .

[novi]

Re: Firewing vs. Gravitar?

 

Actually, near as I can tell is that Kirby is complaining over her 54 PD/ED, coupled with a high CON.

 

Yes, it's at least a little cheesy, but I take it as a sign that defeating her with conventional attacks is supposed to be very unlikely.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Firewing vs. Gravitar?

 

Actually, near as I can tell is that Kirby is complaining over her 54 PD/ED, coupled with a high CON.

 

Yes, it's at least a little cheesy, but I take it as a sign that defeating her with conventional attacks is supposed to be very unlikely.

 

Yep, though she's hardly got what I'd call high CON. Lots of characters have higher.

 

Plus, all you need to beat her is two characters coordinating with 20d6 attacks.

[Kirby]

Re: Firewing vs. Gravitar?

 

2) The write-up' date=' based on the information that you have given, is wrong. His AoE should be 9" radius.[/quote']

TK costs 3 pts for every 2 STR, for 50 STR, the cost is 75. According to FREd, AoE radius gives 1" radius for every 10 character points in the power (NOT including the AoE modifier), so his radius now is 7.5". Adding Personal Immunity (+1/4) and then subtracting No Range (-1/2) brings the Character Points down to 63, (6.3" rounded up [?] to 7") though the Active Points are 94 (9.4" rounded down to 9"). If 5ER changed the radius to Active Points, you are correct. If it's still Character points, it's either 6" or 7".

 

Deadweight is in Enemies of San Angelo which has a copyright of 1998-1999 and came out when 4th Ed was current. My copy of FREd (4th printing) has a copyright of 2003.

[Kirby]

Re: Firewing vs. Gravitar?

 

Its the base *strength* that one must wonder why it actually helps any' date=' as once your floating in midair, there's nothing to exert on.[/quote']Increased gravitational pull. It's the same simple science of why you can't push a car as fast as you can run and why when you hanglide into a cliff, you don't keep gliding.