Sean Waters Posted October 15, 2006 Report Share Posted October 15, 2006 Re: Force Wall Modification Oh and just to show that there is no such thing as a right answer in Hero: Page 238 — to satisfy pedants everywhere, the description for the "Instant Change" example power should note that the power applies to worn clothing, which is what it's obviously intended to affect. It doesn't allow a character to Transform clothing he's not wearing, even if he happens to be touching it. Since the Limited Target Limitation already covers the fact that the power doesn't apply against non-worn objects, the No Range Limitation is not applied; that would constitute "double-dipping." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesG Posted October 16, 2006 Report Share Posted October 16, 2006 Re: Force Wall Modification It was in a private email I had with him. I was asking about a character writeup in one of the supplements that had built one of the powers in way that the core rules forbid. He answered as I stated above. I've heard he's also stated somewhere in the Rules section, but I can't say for sure. - Christopher Mullins I know you've already seen it, but for others who have been following this thread, see here where Steve Long says that the material in the supplements (other than Digital Hero) CAN generally be considered book legal: http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50185 And Chistopher, regarding your followup at http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50201 There are certail rules restrictions in the Hero 5th Edition Revised. Examples: Astral Projection must be built with Duplication. Dispel may not affect characteristics. Is it possible for supplements to contain builds such that Astral Projection is built with power other than Duplication, or a Dispel that built vs a characteristic? The 5ER rules don't say that Astral Projection MUST be used built with Duplication, at least that I can find. It merely uses Duplication as an example of one way to build an Astral Form. One way, not the only way. 5ER does forbid the use of Dispel for Characteristics. What supplement violated this rule? I'd like to check it out. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schir1964 Posted October 16, 2006 Report Share Posted October 16, 2006 Re: Force Wall Modification The 5ER rules don't say that Astral Projection MUST be used built with Duplication' date=' at least that I can find. It merely uses Duplication as an example of one way to build an Astral Form. One way, not the only way.[/quote'] I'll have to go back find the thread that talked about this. It may have been a Hero 5th Edition thing that was removed in the Revised version. There were quite a few people who said it didn't make sense for them say that Duplication should be used, period. 5ER does forbid the use of Dispel for Characteristics. What supplement violated this rule? I'd like to check it out. Thanks. I was simply giving examples of the type of "forbid" rules that might be violated by builds in supplements. The specific email I had was 4 to 5 years ago when I was working on Metacreator Template. I noticed something different in one of the supplements that didn't jibe with Hero 5th Edition. Apparently, the policy is such that supplements are supposed to follow the core rules. I'm very glad to hear that I was wrong. (8^D) It never made sense to me for them to not enforce the rules on the supplements. (8^D) If I ever get time, I'll try to go through the few supplements I have and try to rediscover the oddity in the builds. - Christopher Mullins Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted October 16, 2006 Report Share Posted October 16, 2006 Re: Force Wall Modification Brothers, sisters, come together. Can't we, for once, just agree that Hero is completely adamant about the way in which the rules are applied except in cases where it doesn't work like that, or someone thinks it should be different. I really do think that is part of the beauty of it all Anyway, what did we decide about force walls? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesG Posted October 16, 2006 Report Share Posted October 16, 2006 Re: Force Wall Modification Apparently, the policy is such that supplements are supposed to follow the core rules. I'm very glad to hear that I was wrong. (8^D) It never made sense to me for them to not enforce the rules on the supplements. (8^D) Yeah, it didn't make much sense to me either, but you started to have me worried. Glad we got that settled! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted October 17, 2006 Report Share Posted October 17, 2006 Re: Force Wall Modification Yeah' date=' it didn't make much sense to me either, but you started to have me worried. Glad we got that settled! [/quote'] You were looking for sense? Did you purchase the appropriate detect*? *You know, the one with all those levels of 'microscopic' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utech Posted October 17, 2006 Report Share Posted October 17, 2006 Re: Force Wall Modification I certainly don't think that Self Only and No Range are double dipping on Force Wall. They may be on other powers. Self Only Force Wall Defenses that protect only the person with the power. Can be used at range normally. Can be used to Englobe others (assuming it is large enough). No Range Force Wall Defenses that protect the person with the power and anyone (or anything) else that is behind the Force Wall. The Force Wall must appear in the hex with the person who generated the Force Wall. Can Englobe others along with the person who generated the Force Wall. Self Only and No Range Force Wall Defenses that protect only the person with the power. The Force Wall must appear in the hex with the person who generated the Force Wall. Might be able to Englobe others along with the person who generated the Force Wall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zornwil Posted October 17, 2006 Report Share Posted October 17, 2006 Re: Force Wall Modification Brothers, sisters, come together. Can't we, for once, just agree that Hero is completely adamant about the way in which the rules are applied except in cases where it doesn't work like that, or someone thinks it should be different. I really do think that is part of the beauty of it all Anyway, what did we decide about force walls? So what's with the sig-pic? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpydirShellX Posted October 17, 2006 Report Share Posted October 17, 2006 Re: Force Wall Modification Now that's an idea... Force Wall, IPE, Backlash, AoE(One Hex)(+1/2), Mega-Scale(+1/4), Self Only (-1/2) Anybody within a kilometer that targets you gets the backlash effect, since they are englobed, doesn't interfer with their movement or targeting of others since it's self only... course the user would have to buy indirect on their attacks... or they could just convince their opponent that the reflected attack was your own.... Hmmm.... would a variable SFX(+1/2) allow you to change the type of attack? So if they used a water blast you could send back a fire one... Of course there would be the issue of max damage on the force wall.... and having to reset if it was exceeded.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted October 17, 2006 Report Share Posted October 17, 2006 Re: Force Wall Modification So what's with the sig-pic? New phone with a spiffy camera on it Don't worry, it has gone now (the sig-pic, not the phone) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted October 17, 2006 Report Share Posted October 17, 2006 Re: Force Wall Modification Now that's an idea... Force Wall, IPE, Backlash, AoE(One Hex)(+1/2), Mega-Scale(+1/4), Self Only (-1/2) Anybody within a kilometer that targets you gets the backlash effect, since they are englobed, doesn't interfer with their movement or targeting of others since it's self only... course the user would have to buy indirect on their attacks... or they could just convince their opponent that the reflected attack was your own.... Hmmm.... would a variable SFX(+1/2) allow you to change the type of attack? So if they used a water blast you could send back a fire one... Of course there would be the issue of max damage on the force wall.... and having to reset if it was exceeded.... Very inventive: I can see that being used again. It will be interesting to see what problem it is used to solve BTW it seems that, in that instance, 'self only' is an advantage and I'm not sure you can apply area effect advantages (and megascale) to a power that aleady has an AoE defined, but I DO like the basic idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utech Posted October 17, 2006 Report Share Posted October 17, 2006 Re: Force Wall Modification While I appreciate the evil thought process , I'd have to say it's a no-go for lots of reasons. Anybody within a kilometer that targets you gets the backlash effect, since they are englobed,I don't think so. If you are englobed with them they are hitting you directly, not the Force Wall. The Backlash does not come into play. doesn't interfer with their movement I don't think so. If they are Englobed, they cannot move out of the Force Wall without breaking it (or having an appropriate movement power, of course). or targeting of others since it's self only...That's true. course the user would have to buy indirect on their attacks...Not if the attacks are aimed at someone Englobed with the user. Yes if the attacks are aimed at someone outside the Force Wall. or they could just convince their opponent that the reflected attack was your own....Acting? Persuasion? Oratory? Seduction? Some sort of linked power? Presence Attack? Hmmm.... would a variable SFX(+1/2) allow you to change the type of attack? So if they used a water blast you could send back a fire one... I don't think so. Variable SFX would allow you to change the special effects of your Force Wall -- not any attack that might be somehow reflected by your Force Wall. Thus it could change from a Bubble of Force to a Magical Shield to a Bunch of Linebackers to . . . well, you get the picture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zornwil Posted October 17, 2006 Report Share Posted October 17, 2006 Re: Force Wall Modification New phone with a spiffy camera on it Don't worry, it has gone now (the sig-pic, not the phone) No worries, I found it interesting, just wasn't sure if it had some more meaning/background. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesG Posted October 17, 2006 Report Share Posted October 17, 2006 Re: Force Wall Modification No Range Force Wall Defenses that protect the person with the power and anyone (or anything) else that is behind the Force Wall. The Force Wall must appear in the hex with the person who generated the Force Wall. Can Englobe others along with the person who generated the Force Wall. I would also allow a No Rangle Force Wall to englobe an enemy right next to the Waller, without the Waller also needing to be inside the FW. Similar to the way some No Range area effect attack powers do not attack the user. Basically as long as some part of the FoWa is at "No Range" it's OK. So if someone had a 6" by 1" No Range FoWa, they could make a Wall stretching out 6" as long as one end point was adjacent to him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utech Posted October 17, 2006 Report Share Posted October 17, 2006 Re: Force Wall Modification Basically as long as some part of the FoWa is at "No Range" it's OK. So if someone had a 6" by 1" No Range FoWa' date=' they could make a Wall stretching out 6" as long as one end point was adjacent to him.[/quote'] Sounds fair to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted October 17, 2006 Report Share Posted October 17, 2006 Re: Force Wall Modification Sounds fair to me. That sounds like a good way to build a stretching based character's ability to make a wall with a part of his body by grabbing anchor point(s). The 'breaking' of the wall would then represent losing his grip on the anchor point(s). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted October 17, 2006 Report Share Posted October 17, 2006 Re: Force Wall Modification No worries' date=' I found it interesting, just wasn't sure if it had some more meaning/background.[/quote'] Well the thought process (why is that not in inverted commas?) behind it was a graphic representation of my approach on the boards, argumentative, amused/philosophical and confused. Or something like that Also I seemed to be arguing with myself, which seemed appropriate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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