Skills? How many points are normal?

[Niles]

Re: Skills? How many points are normal?

 

Ok' date=' we do that and I would still have over 20 pts in background skills. And this is me, as a person, by the time I graduated High School.[/quote']

 

I don't trust peoples ability to honestly evaluate their own capabilities, not even myself.

 

Certainly not someone who takes nine out of twenty one and still gets a result over 20.

[Niles]

Re: Skills? How many points are normal?

 

2 Language: Latin (fluent conversation)

9 Paramedics 16-

3 Persuasion 12-

3 PS: Doctor 13-

3 Scholar

1 1) KS: Chemistry (2 Active Points) 11-

1 2) KS: Medicine (2 Active Points) 11-

2 3) KS: Reproduction (3 Active Points) 13-

1 4) KS: Surgery (2 Active Points) 11-

3 Scientist

1 1) SS: Anatomy 11- (2 Active Points)

1 2) SS: Biology 11- (2 Active Points)

2 3) SS: Fertility / Infertility 13- (3 Active Points)

2 4) SS: Gynaecology 13- (3 Active Points)

1 5) SS: Medicine 11- (2 Active Points)

2 6) SS: Obstetrics 13- (3 Active Points)

1 7) SS: Surgery 11- (2 Active Points)

2 Systems Operation (Medical Systems) 13-

4 TF: Jetskis, SCUBA, Small Motorized Boats, Small Motorized Ground Vehicles

 

Sure, I could be cheesey and do the powergamer stint of (0) PS: Doctor 11-, but I actually want my character to be something more than that. This character specialized in treating infertility. And guess what? I not only used these skills at his job, but I was able to use them during each adventure aspect as well. This way is not only efficient for me, but it is more effective.

Or you could buy your skills like a sane person:

9 Paramedics 16-

0 PS: Obstetrician 11- (everyman)

6 SS: Medicine 16-

3 TF: Jetskis, SCUBA, Small Motorized Boats

0 TF: Small Motorized Ground Vehicles (everyman)

1 Fringe benefit: Licence to practice Medicine

And you remain one of the finest doctors on the continent for less than half the points.

If you want to be good at a skill, get a high level in it, don't buy it a dozen times under slightly different names.

[Shike019]

Re: Skills? How many points are normal?

 

I don't trust peoples ability to honestly evaluate their own capabilities, not even myself.

 

Certainly not someone who takes nine out of twenty one and still gets a result over 20.

 

OK, I mis counted. I admit that. But in all honesty By the time I finished Highschool I had that skill list. I also made several Area honors Bands (One in principle sax, one in second chair). I taught Sax, Euphonium and Clarinet. I am an Eagle scout. I ski raced throughout Highschool, played soccer throughout my young life and had soccor lessons from British Professionals, and Studied Soo Bahk Do until I was a Junior in High School (made it to 2nd gup which is more than a mere familiarity with the style).

 

All I'm saying is that 6 points in background skills doesn't fit me and I was an average Highschool kid from where I came from.

[Shike019]

Re: Skills? How many points are normal?

 

Or you could buy your skills like a sane person:

9 Paramedics 16-

0 PS: Obstetrician 11- (everyman)

6 SS: Medicine 16-

3 TF: Jetskis, SCUBA, Small Motorized Boats

0 TF: Small Motorized Ground Vehicles (everyman)

1 Fringe benefit: Licence to practice Medicine

And you remain one of the finest doctors on the continent for less than half the points.

If you want to be good at a skill, get a high level in it, don't buy it a dozen times under slightly different names.

 

You see, I think this is where the problem lies between the two sides of the argument. To those of us on the other side of the equation, he didn't buy the same skill multiple times. They are distinct but related areas of science and knowledge, each of which gives a bonus. Also, SS: medicine and SS: Surgery are completely different skill sets and I as a GM would give the SS: Medicine heavy penalties for doing surgery and many others would. I guess the problem we are facing is that of granularity in their skill sets. In my opinion if someone wants to be a surgeon he has to buy SS: surgery or PS: Surgeon. not PS: Doctor.

[Rapier]

Re: Skills? How many points are normal?

 

You see' date=' I think this is where the problem lies between the two sides of the argument. To those of us on the other side of the equation, he didn't buy the same skill multiple times. They are distinct but related areas of science and knowledge, each of which gives a bonus. Also, SS: medicine and SS: Surgery are completely different skill sets and I as a GM would give the SS: Medicine heavy penalties for doing surgery and many others would. I guess the problem we are facing is that of granularity in their skill sets. In my opinion if someone wants to be a surgeon he has to buy SS: surgery or PS: Surgeon. not PS: Doctor.[/quote']

 

That's it exactly.

 

The character Doc has:

9 Paramedics 16-

0 PS: Obstetrician 11- (everyman)

6 SS: Medicine 16-

3 TF: Jetskis, SCUBA, Small Motorized Boats

0 TF: Small Motorized Ground Vehicles (everyman)

1 Fringe benefit: Licence to practice Medicine

 

Obstetrician is NOT an everyman skill, but lets pretend he actually paid the points for it. PS: Obstetrician would give you a -2 to diagnose a cold or cancer. It would also give you at least a -2 in surgery. A general skills give you penalties at the specific. Can you get by with PS: Doctor? Sure, however you best have a buttload of levels to offset the penalties I'm gonna hit you with.

 

Doctors go through an internship where they give multiple specialties a try. It would make sense for a doctor to have:

 

PS: Obstetrician 15-

PS: Surgeon 12-

PS: Psychologist 12-

 

Again, just because you don't want to pay for a skill doesn't mean that you can just call it EveryMan and be done with it. If that is your theory, then you never have to spend points on ANY skills, because they are ALL EveryMan.

[Vondy]

Re: Skills? How many points are normal?

 

 

If you did not have those skills I would assume you had no real interest in exploring that aspect of the character. Ever. Or that if you did, you expected to be just as clueless about Smallville as Diana and Bruce, which probably wouldn't make much sense unless Smallville had Changed a lot since you've been gone.

 

I've seen this sentiment from several posters lately, and to be perfectly honest, I think looking at a character sheet and background is a poor substitute for communication. It can be a passable indicator of what the player wants, but its little more than that. I expect my players to tell me what they want to do with their characters, and I take the time to ask them.

[Kirby]

Re: Skills? How many points are normal?

 

Or you could buy your skills like a sane person:

Ah, here you are trying to state your opinion as fact while simultaneously implying that I'm insane. People have been banned for that.

 

9 Paramedics 16-

0 PS: Obstetrician 11- (everyman)

6 SS: Medicine 16-

3 TF: Jetskis, SCUBA, Small Motorized Boats

0 TF: Small Motorized Ground Vehicles (everyman)

1 Fringe benefit: Licence to practice Medicine

And you remain one of the finest doctors on the continent for less than half the points.

If you want to be good at a skill, get a high level in it, don't buy it a dozen times under slightly different names.

Quite frankly, you're ignorant about what you speak. I didn't list any of the same skills under different names. I listed different, detailed skills. And your assumption that an 11- PS skill makes me "one of the finest doctors on the continent" and a better doctor than a 13-, is plain ludicrous. The fact that you eliminated specialized complimentary skills as well as necessary skills for his profession (Reproduction, Surgery, Anatomy, Biology, Fertility / Infertility, Gynaecology) shows that you have no clue what you're talking about. Try a dictionary for starters.

 

You seem to be doing nothing more than arrogantly boasting about your lack of knowledge and assuming everyone should follow your uneducated path.

I had misinterpreted your statement as an expression of pride in ignorance' date=' an attitude I detest.[/quote']Go back to the d20 kids table.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Skills? How many points are normal?

 

Oh and another thing to toss out there for the 0-6 Skills Pts:

 

I never once said I liked to see that 10-20% in Non Combat Skills, Just in Skills.

 

Fair enough, but I think many posters are arguing for skills that have limited or no use in an adventuring capacity. Compare your list to Kirby's, for example.

 

Like say this:

 

Power Skill (I like to experiment a bit with what I can do; 5pts)

+2 CSLs w/ MP (I've been practicing in the Danger Room; 6pts) *

Acrobatics + Breakfall (practice, practice, practice; 3pts each) *

[17pts already!]

Stealth + Shadowing (I know sometimes kicking in the front door is a bad plan; 3pts each) *

[23 points, getting up there]

AK: City (I've learned the city better since I got this gig, helps for response time; 2pts) *

Teamwork (remember that Danger Room?; 3pts) *

[28 points now]

Streetwise (I know what's what; 3pts)

= 31 Points, and we haven't left our Adventuring Persona yet.

 

I added the *'s. This accounts for 23 of those 31 points, and all seem too imply these are skills you learned after starting your superheroic career. If we assume a novice character who has not yet had access to the Danger Room, nor much time adventuring to realize the need for these skills, the character would logically not currently have these skills, but might be using his early xp to acquire many of them.

 

Your list also implies that pretty much every character should buy Stealth, Shadowing, Acrobatics and Breakfall. This seems inconsistent with the source material to me, although it does depend on one's interpretation, and which source material one specifically selects.

 

Batman has all four of those skills. How many other members of the "Big 7" JLA do? Similarly Captain America has all these skills, but how many other Classic Avengers do? Are these skill choices based more on "the skills I think my character would have based on the source material" or "the skills I want my character to be able to perform"?

[Vondy]

Re: Skills? How many points are normal?

 

Or you could buy your skills like a sane person:

9 Paramedics 16-

0 PS: Obstetrician 11- (everyman)

6 SS: Medicine 16-

3 TF: Jetskis, SCUBA, Small Motorized Boats

0 TF: Small Motorized Ground Vehicles (everyman)

1 Fringe benefit: Licence to practice Medicine

And you remain one of the finest doctors on the continent for less than half the points.

If you want to be good at a skill, get a high level in it, don't buy it a dozen times under slightly different names.

 

This is a matter of preferred style and design philosophy and has nothing to do with correctness. Basically, your entire argument (throughout this thread), while valid, is also wholly subjective, and essentially irrelevant to how other people choose to build characters.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Skills? How many points are normal?

 

Quite frankly' date=' you're ignorant about what you speak. I didn't list any of the same skills under different names. I listed different, detailed skills. And your assumption that an 11- PS skill makes me "one of the finest doctors on the continent" and a better doctor than a 13-, is plain ludicrous. The fact that you eliminated specialized complimentary skills as well as necessary skills for his profession (Reproduction, [b']Surgery[/b], Anatomy, Biology, Fertility / Infertility, Gynaecology) shows that you have no clue what you're talking about. Try a dictionary for starters.

 

You seem to be doing nothing more than arrogantly boasting about your lack of knowledge and assuming everyone should follow your uneducated path.

Go back to the d20 kids table.

 

It soounds like you're applying prerequisites for various skills. Anyone who has succeeded in medical school must, logically, have a basic knowledge of biology and anatomy. If he does not, how can he be a medical doctor/surgeon? The basic question is whether that level of knowledge is subsumed into the skill to practice medicine, or be a surgeon. Is there an official Hero package deal out there somewhere for a medical doctor? What skills does it require of all MD's? Presumably, these are the de minimis requirements to be a reasonably competent medical practitioner.

 

Similarly, an Ob Gyn must have some knowledge of Reproduction and Fertility / Infertility to be an Ob/Gyn. So does it cost 3 points to move my existing MD up to an Int based PS: Ob/GYN, or 9 points, since you must have the two additional skills? What point cost, ultimately, is reasonable for such a skill set? It's not too hard to price a background as an MD out of the market if we work at it, and encourage all our players to write up high school dropout burger flippers so they can keep some points for abilities that will provide some in-game benefit.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Skills? How many points are normal?

 

Ah, here you are trying to state your opinion as fact while simultaneously implying that I'm insane. People have been banned for that.

**********************************************************

You seem to be doing nothing more than arrogantly boasting about your lack of knowledge and assuming everyone should follow your uneducated path.

Go back to the d20 kids table.

 

May I make a request that we all try to keep it civil?

[Kirby]

Re: Skills? How many points are normal?

 

0 TF: Small Motorized Ground Vehicles (everyman)

This is the only thing I've seen you post that's been accurate. The reason I paid for it is because I was purchasing other TFs at the same time and didn't mind spending one xp to include it, as opposed to purchasing it separtely and zeroing out the price.

[Kirby]

Re: Skills? How many points are normal?

 

What point cost' date=' ultimately, is [i']reasonable[/i] for such a skill set?

While I understand your point, I wasn't aiming for a simplified doctor approach (which I have done before).

 

My wife's gynaecologist has more skills/degrees than my health care doctor. Our reproductive specialist has more skills/degrees than her gynaecologist (the gynaecologist said the reproductive specialist probably has -IIRC- three or more degrees than he does, how much was joking, I'm not sure, but the reproductive specialist does have more initials after his name, for what it's worth).

 

An (not exactly accurate) analogy would be going from a bachelor's degree, to a master's degree to a doctorate. Or perhaps better suited would be a geologist going into astronomy and specializing in terraforming.

 

While I could by PS: Doctor and just pump points into that skill alone, that doesn't make me a surgeon, similarly like being an OB/GYN doesn't make me a Pediatrician.

[Niles]

Re: Skills? How many points are normal?

 

Quite frankly' date=' you're ignorant about what you speak. I didn't list any of the same skills under different names. I listed different, detailed skills. And your assumption that an 11- PS skill makes me "one of the finest doctors on the continent" and a better doctor than a 13-, is plain ludicrous. The fact that you eliminated specialized complimentary skills as well as necessary skills for his profession (Reproduction, [b']Surgery[/b], Anatomy, Biology, Fertility / Infertility, Gynaecology) shows that you have no clue what you're talking about. Try a dictionary for starters.

I eliminated redundancy and waste, your list was so bloated with skills that were restatements or subsets of other listed skills that it confused the issue. Though I admit I should have listed the PS as OBGYN.

 

I didn't assume that an 11- PS made this character one of the finest doctors on the continent, Page 46 of HERO5 lists the skills used in the HERO system to be a Medical Doctor. I assumed having all of these skills at 16- as well as as a complimentary PS made the character one of the finest doctors on the continent.

[Niles]

Re: Skills? How many points are normal?

 

Obstetrician is NOT an everyman skill' date=' but lets pretend he actually paid the points for it.[/quote']Why don't you reread the rules on everyman skills, after you're done I'll accept your apology.

PS: Obstetrician would give you a -2 to diagnose a cold or cancer. It would also give you at least a -2 in surgery.

All of these things are the domain of SS: Medicine (with a complimentay skill bonus from Paramedic) a character with the skill list I gave is better at these tasks than the original character, not worse.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Skills? How many points are normal?

 

My wife's gynaecologist has more skills/degrees than my health care doctor. Our reproductive specialist has more skills/degrees than her gynaecologist (the gynaecologist said the reproductive specialist probably has -IIRC- three or more degrees than he does' date=' how much was joking, I'm not sure, but the reproductive specialist [i']does[/i] have more initials after his name, for what it's worth).

 

Many initials can be gained behind your name, especially after the first set, by applying and showing that you already have the skills from practicing your first set of initials. Lack of these added initials does not necessarily mean the attendant skill set is missing.

 

"Degrees" does not necessarily equate to "skills". Perhaps each degree should be a 1 point Perk, conveying a certain level of respect (at least until the person impressed discovers that, degree or otherwise, you're not competent, or you are competent).

 

While I could by PS: Doctor and just pump points into that skill alone' date=' that doesn't make me a surgeon, similarly like being an OB/GYN doesn't make me a Pediatrician.[/quote']

 

The game does simplify things. If you buy PS: Accountant, are you:

 

- an expert in public corporations

- an expert in private corporations

- skilled at internal audit

- skilled at external audit

- skilled in various specialized industries

- expert in matters of taxation (for public companies, private companies, individuals, estates, trusts, immigrants, emigrants, nonresidents, charities and/or specific industries)

- skilled in business valuation

 

 

If you can gather a group of 100 people with identical professional credentials and, say, three years' post-qualification experience, I doubt you will find two among them with identical skill sets.

 

You could certainly require a separate skills listing, costing 25+ points, for each one. But is that necessary, or even desirable, for game purposes? I suggest it is not.

[Kirby]

Re: Skills? How many points are normal?

 

I eliminated redundancy and waste, your list was so bloated with skills that were restatements or subsets of other listed skills that it confused the issue. Though I admit I should have listed the PS as OBGYN.

 

I didn't assume that an 11- PS made this character one of the finest doctors on the continent, Page 46 of HERO5 lists the skills used in the HERO system to be a Medical Doctor. I assumed having all of these skills at 16- as well as as a complimentary PS made the character one of the finest doctors on the continent.

Again, you simply don't know what you're talking about, aside from skimping on skills to bloat your self worth. Where shall we start? Well, for semantics, Paramedics 16- + Medicine 16- would be both, not all.

For many Character Concepts 0-6 points is more than sufficient. Don't let anyone tell you any differently. Also remember your everyman skills.

Or you could buy your skills like a sane person:

9 Paramedics 16-

0 PS: Obstetrician 11- (everyman)

6 SS: Medicine 16-

3 TF: Jetskis, SCUBA, Small Motorized Boats

0 TF: Small Motorized Ground Vehicles (everyman)

1 Fringe benefit: Licence to practice Medicine

And you remain one of the finest doctors on the continent for less than half the points.

If you want to be good at a skill, get a high level in it, don't buy it a dozen times under slightly different names.

Already you've contradicted yourself (and not the only time) by giving 10+ points more than your "many character concepts" statement.

 

The next part is that you still cannot comprehend what I've stated. Having an SS: Medicine doesn't make you a surgeon. Not all doctors are surgeons. Not all surgeon are brain surgeons. And since you eliminated the KSs, let me quote FREd, page 47 (that's the page following where you found the doctor requirements). "Whereas Knowledge Skills give a character knowledge of how or why something works, Professional Skills give a character the ability to perform some task or do some type of work. For example, a character with KS: Plumbing knows generally how plumbing works, the history of plumbing, how much plumbers earn on a yearly basis and so forth. A character with PS: Plumbing might not understand the intricacies of water pressure and water flow friction, but he could fix a broken pipe and knows how to sue plumbing tools. A character could (and often should) have a KS and a PS of the same subject to reflect both a theoretical and practical knowledge." [Emphasis mine.]

 

From the Science Skill: "A character with a specific science has a vague knowledge of the general science, and vice versa. For example, a character with Microbiology knows a lot about microscopic organisms and general facts about Biology." [Emphasis mine.]

 

I designed my character to know a lot about each of those subjects. You've essentially tried to turn him into a glorified clinic. But if he needs to perform sugery (-3) or specifically brain surgery (-3) he's dropped from a 16- to a 10-. In the case of my character you would have him practicing gynaecology (-3) and infertility treatments (-3) to again being at a 10-. Instead of being "one of the finest doctors on the continent" you've created Doctor Nick from The Simpsons. D'oh!

 

Whenever I see characters made for campaigns with a minimum ependiture [sic] on skills I see stupidity such as this:

KS:the martial world

KS:famous martial artists

KS:noteworthy martial artists

KS:interesting martial artists

KS:martial arts history

KS:history of martial arts

etc.

I exagurated [sic] for effect.

The more you post, the more it shows you lack credibility.

[Kirby]

Re: Skills? How many points are normal?

 

The game does simplify things. If you buy PS: Accountant, are you:

 

- an expert in public corporations

- an expert in private corporations

- skilled at internal audit

- skilled at external audit

- skilled in various specialized industries

- expert in matters of taxation (for public companies, private companies, individuals, estates, trusts, immigrants, emigrants, nonresidents, charities and/or specific industries)

- skilled in business valuation

To begin with, buying a PS: Accountant doesn't make you an expert, it makes you competent. Buying it up to higher levels/rolls would make you an expert. But to use your own analogy: If I buy PS: Doctor I am qualified to be:

-a doctor in a public hospital

-a doctor in a private practice

-skilled at diagnosing illnesses

-skilled at writing prescriptions

-skilled (overqualified?) at working at a pharmacy

 

Also, being an accountant doesn't make you an expert in being a Treasurer with a non-profit organization, specifically PTAs. In fact, PTAs discourage CPAs from becoming Treasurers, because until they "relearn," they mess up the money count, which brings in the IRS. Fines start, on average between 4-$7,000.

You could certainly require a separate skills listing' date=' costing 25+ points, for each one. But is that necessary, or even desirable, for game purposes? I suggest it is not.[/quote']Aside from a straw man-type argument you've presented, I'll state again that being a doctor doesn't make you a surgeon. And being an accountant doesn't make you a mathematician, much less a professor of mathematics.

[Kirby]

Re: Skills? How many points are normal?

 

All of these things are the domain of SS: Medicine....

 

medicine - any substance or substances used in treating diseases or illnesses. the art or science of treating disease with drugs or curative substances, as distinguished from surgery and obstetrics. [Emphasis mine]

 

So, no, they're not. You lack credibility.

[Kirby]

Re: Skills? How many points are normal?

 

Many initials can be gained behind your name, especially after the first set, by applying and showing that you already have the skills from practicing your first set of initials. Lack of these added initials does not necessarily mean the attendant skill set is missing.

 

"Degrees" does not necessarily equate to "skills".

I'm not quite sure what you're referring to here, but I'll just say that our reproductive specialist is qualified to diagnose, treat, and even perform surgery in ways that my wife's gynaecologist is not.

[Kirby]

Re: Skills? How many points are normal?

 

Back to the original topic of this thread:

My first time playing in a champions game in..well ages.. I think last time i saw a champions book it was first edition. How many skill points do normal 350 points charcters have or..Should they have?

Most of the printed ones have about 50 pts it looks like including ks and such..and Im a bit worried my 275 pts character only has 21 pts worth.

Again, you're probably fine. There shouldn't be anything to worry about unless your GM has a preferred minimum. And if he does, I'm sure he'll be more than willing to help you achieve that.

[Rapier]

Re: Skills? How many points are normal?

 

Why don't you reread the rules on everyman skills' date=' after you're done I'll accept your apology.[/quote']

 

All characters have some ability in a few Skills to relfect the fact that everybody knows how to do these things to some extent.

 

I could go on and continue to quote the text, but do I really need to?

 

I might suggest you brush up on that bit of text yourself, since it also goes on to explain that EveryMan Skills are Familiarities, which are 8-. Whereas your Obstretician example has a whopping 11-.

 

Now, I will accept one apology for being incorrect and one for smarm.

[Niles]

Re: Skills? How many points are normal?

 

I could go on and continue to quote the text, but do I really need to?

 

I might suggest you brush up on that bit of text yourself, since it also goes on to explain that EveryMan Skills are Familiarities, which are 8-. Whereas your Obstretician example has a whopping 11-.

 

Now, I will accept one apology for being incorrect and one for smarm.

 

One PS at 11- (a characters job' date=' hobby or the like)[/quote']

One PS at 11- (a characters job' date=' hobby or the like)[/quote']

One PS at 11- (a characters job' date=' hobby or the like)[/quote']Who owes whom an apology?

[Niles]

Re: Skills? How many points are normal?

 

Again' date=' you simply don't know what you're talking about, aside from skimping on skills to bloat your self worth.[/quote']I am not the one bloating anything here. Does Bloating your characters skill list have the as much of the same effect on your own self worth as it appears?

 

Already you've contradicted yourself (and not the only time) by giving 10+ points more than your "many character concepts" statement.

Many character concepts do call for 0-6 point of skills, world renowned doctor is not one of them.

 

The next part is that you still cannot comprehend what I've stated. Having an SS: Medicine doesn't make you a surgeon. Not all doctors are surgeons. Not all surgeon are brain surgeons. And since you eliminated the KSs' date=' let me quote FREd, page 47 (that's the page following where you found the doctor requirements). "[i']Whereas Knowledge Skills give a character knowledge of how or why something works, Professional Skills give a character the ability to perform some task or do some type of work. For example, a character with KS: Plumbing knows generally how plumbing works, the history of plumbing, how much plumbers earn on a yearly basis and so forth. A character with PS: Plumbing might not understand the intricacies of water pressure and water flow friction, but he could fix a broken pipe and knows how to sue plumbing tools. A character could (and often should) have a KS and a PS of the same subject to reflect both a theoretical and practical knowledge[/i]." [Emphasis mine.]

Sure and as for a science skill:

A science skill thus functions as a combination of a PS and a KS' date=' since it provides both theoretical knowledge of the subject and the practical skills of working with the equipment associated with the science.[/quote']

I designed my character to know a lot about each of those subjects.

No you have actualy created you character to know something about each of those subjects over and over again, I created the character to be excellent at the practice of medicine into which category all of these tasks fall. Inventing new penalties for preforming the basic tasks of skills inculded in the main book is pure dickery.

 

As for what skill is used for surgery and if it uses takes a penalty to do so:

this skill is often known as Healer or Chirurgeon

chirurgeon

NOUN: Archaic, A surgeon.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Skills? How many points are normal?

 

Ok - no one owes anyone an apology. The tone of this thread is going very downhill very quickly.

 

Let's all stop insinuating insults, demanding apologies and talking trash. Seriously, act civil.

 

I'll be elsewhere, considering finding a moderator. . .