Getting the “Pulp Feel” with Hero

[ghost-angel]

Re: Getting the “Pulp Feel” with Hero

 

But even supposing you were right that any restriction was rooted in my interpretation rather than the system itself' date=' the restriction would be real, nonetheless.[/quote']

 

There is no doubt about the truth of this statement. And by no means do I think you are a bad gamer because of it, or any other negative thoughts. Nor do I think you are wrong in wanted another system to play Pulp in. It's all down to preferences.

 

But you statements do outline the largest difference between us: I started playing Hero as a Fantasy game, and then a Cyberpunk game, and finally a Champions game.

 

By the time I got to Champions as a genre I'd already taken the rules and mechanics as a "Bare Bones with nothing implied" concept. They didn't lead me in one particular direction or another as far as "feel of the system" went. Which is an important distinction between how you and I see Hero; neither of us wrong in our views.

 

For me a genre is less what the mechanics behind it are and more the feel portrayed in the game - if someone were to treat a Fantasy Mage as nothing more than a Superhero I have no doubt I would have my suspension of disbelief broken and be unhappy in the game.

 

(and I realize there is some irony in that statement because I am playing essentially a Mage in a Superhero game GMed by Bigdamnhero. And the same suspension of disbelief is not broken. Possibly because Superhero Comics open themselves up to a cross-concept feel without having to break genre.)

[Questar]

Re: Getting the “Pulp Feel” with Hero

 

There is no doubt about the truth of this statement. And by no means do I think you are a bad gamer because of it' date=' or any other negative thoughts. Nor do I think you are wrong in wanted another system to play Pulp in. It's all down to preferences.[/quote']

 

Well...thank you. I don't think I'm a bad gamer either. And I have no doubt at all that you are a *very* good gamer.

 

But you statements do outline the largest difference between us: I started playing Hero as a Fantasy game, and then a Cyberpunk game, and finally a Champions game.

 

By the time I got to Champions as a genre I'd already taken the rules and mechanics as a "Bare Bones with nothing implied" concept. They didn't lead me in one particular direction or another as far as "feel of the system" went. Which is an important distinction between how you and I see Hero; neither of us wrong in our views.

 

For me a genre is less what the mechanics behind it are and more the feel portrayed in the game - if someone were to treat a Fantasy Mage as nothing more than a Superhero I have no doubt I would have my suspension of disbelief broken and be unhappy in the game.

 

But consider how you might feel if somone wanted you to start a campaign with, say, a d20 system rather than Hero. Would you feel then that the mechanics were not really a factor in your enjoyment? Would you feel that what really mattered was the feel portrayed in the game by the players? If it's all in what you make of it and your own attitude, then how can you espouse a preference for Hero or any other system?

 

It sounds like you're saying that all systems are equal in your eyes, because the actual mechanics are not as important as the imagination the player brings to it. While I would agree that ultimately everything rests on the player's imagination, I think the mechanics of the system can help or hinder the process. On some level you must think so too, because you do prefer the Hero system to others (as do I, in general).

 

 

(and I realize there is some irony in that statement because I am playing essentially a Mage in a Superhero game GMed by Bigdamnhero. And the same suspension of disbelief is not broken. Possibly because Superhero Comics open themselves up to a cross-concept feel without having to break genre.)

 

I think that's why Hero lends itself well to all sorts of different genres. Because to be able to simulate superhero comics, you have to have a system that can do just about anything.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Getting the “Pulp Feel” with Hero

 

But consider how you might feel if somone wanted you to start a campaign with, say, a d20 system rather than Hero. Would you feel then that the mechanics were not really a factor in your enjoyment? Would you feel that what really mattered was the feel portrayed in the game by the players? If it's all in what you make of it and your own attitude, then how can you espouse a preference for Hero or any other system?

 

It sounds like you're saying that all systems are equal in your eyes, because the actual mechanics are not as important as the imagination the player brings to it. While I would agree that ultimately everything rests on the player's imagination, I think the mechanics of the system can help or hinder the process. On some level you must think so too, because you do prefer the Hero system to others (as do I, in general).

 

hmmm, interesting thought there. Because no, I definitely do not view all systems equal, and actually have a certain level of antipathy for D20 itself.

 

Mostly because other systems, while able to achieve good roleplaying, and a lot of it is down to the players, aren't as transparent as Hero is for me.

 

To me Hero Mechanics come up during character and campaign creation. Once I get into actual play they get pushed off to second tier thoughts with the game at the forefront. No other system has gotten that far for me. When I was in a D20 game the mechanics and rules kept coming up and interfering with the general feel of playing the game out.

 

So yes, I do have some bias that Hero Mechanics work best for me, and they are a big factor in my enjoyment. But most of it comes from the fact that, for me at least, the mechanics get out of my way when I sit down at the table. And I don't get that feeling from any other system I've played.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Getting the “Pulp Feel” with Hero

 

And I hope you have a blast. I'm certainly not trying to convince anyone to use a different system.

My apologies: I didn’t mean to imply that you were.

 

Assuming such a positive attitude by players and GM' date=' I think it's inescapable that the system used will have a big impact on the game. Not all systems are created equal. Not all of them do all things equally well, and some are more suited to a particular kind of gaming experience than others. [/quote']

Point taken. I’m not saying the system is irrelevant. I would never recommend Savage Worlds to run a hard sci-fi game, ferinstance. And frankly I don’t think d20 really works terribly well for Pulp either; the HP & AC mechanics in particular are IMO very poorly suited to that genre.

 

Hero, OTOH, works for me for any genre I’ve tried so far. Maybe it’s partly because, like g-a, I started with Fantasy Hero and only got around to Champions much later. So the mechanics don’t particularly “feel” more superhero-y than any other genre. Sure, the first wizards we created tended to be kinda super-heroic (a small number of killer spells with few limitations). But once we’d played around with the system a bit -- lower AP caps, more Limitations, better-balanced END costs, etc -- that went away and it felt like fantasy. I’m not saying you need to do this, you may well have tried it and found it wanting. I’m just using it as an example.

 

So perhaps what I am looking for is more a *sense* of combat rather than a *simulation* of combat to some degree. Something that doesn't feel like a frame-by-frame depiction. And something that moves so fast that you aren't stopping to think about range penalites or the bonus you get from a martial maneuver. And something that encourages the player to think outside the box of the phased' date=' segmented movement of Hero. [/quote']

I think I see what you mean here. You have a point that Hero does lend itself well to that sort of detailed blow-by-blow simulation, and that style may not be appropriate to the Pulp genre. But then, I tend to run Hero combat fairly fast and furious even in Champions games. As I said before, if stopping to look up a modifier or whatever is going to slow play down, my tendency is to SWAG it and keep moving. I know this would drive some players crazy, but the people I tend to game with would rather have a fun, fast-moving game than a precise simulation.

 

If I had to point to one thing that slowed things down the most it would probably be determining the current OCV and DCV in any given attack. With so many different ways that each can be modified' date=' it can take time to remember them all and apply each one. [/quote']

I guess I just don’t see as much of this. Maybe because I handle most of the mechanics for my players, so I don’t have to wait on The Slow Guy. (Every group has one, right?) As g-a suggested, having a lot of that stuff pre-calculated helps. Also since I know all the PCs and NPCs, it’s fairly easy to come up with a “ballpark” estimate for most attacks, ie “OK, I’m sure a 9- will hit here, and I know a 13+ is going to miss.” Well that takes care of 2 out of 3 rolls where I can just announce “hit” or “miss” and only 1 in 3 where I actually have to count all the modifiers.

 

(Again, please don’t take this as “I’m a better GM than you.” I’m just talking. )

 

I have some specific things I'm looking for. For example' date=' dogfighting, which I find unsatisfactory in Hero. [/quote']

Here I’m in total agreement. I’m not too thrilled with the spaceship combat mechanics in Star Hero either. But because I’m an incorrigible house-ruler anyway, my tendency is to bend the existing rules into a shape that better fits what I’m dialing for. Truth is, I’ve probably done that to a greater or lesser degree with every game I’ve ever run, regardless of system. What I like about Hero is there are generally fewer such overhauls required, and the nature of the system makes it easier to tack such things on without messing up the fundamentals.

 

When I was in a D20 game the mechanics and rules kept coming up and interfering with the general feel of playing the game out.

Exactly. I don’t think I’ve ever played a d20 game that didn’t have to pause at least once while someone looked up “x” rule or “y” spell. And these are people who know d20 well. (Tho the constantly-changing editions is partly a factor here.) I hardly ever see that in Hero.

[nanniemouse]

Re: Getting the “Pulp Feel” with Hero

 

Okay, what is it you want? Maybe you could come up with an alternate system for those part of the Hero system that you find problematic. Nothing is written in stone and new ideas could help us all.

 

Start with dog fighting. What do you need to make it feel right? Pulp is no more scientifically accurate than comics, so maybe you just need to build on the "Super" dogfight ideas. If not, a separate combat system could be designed for air combat. It's time consuming, but it might help you break your block.

 

If you can't find the perfect system perfect one yourself!

[mraley]

Re: Getting the “Pulp Feel” with Hero

 

Hero' date=' OTOH, works for me for any genre I’ve tried so far. Maybe it’s partly because, like g-a, I started with Fantasy Hero and only got around to Champions much later. So the mechanics don’t particularly “feel” more superhero-y than any other genre.[/quote']

 

I have the same feeling. My first experience with HERO was a Pulp game, run by (noted Pulp HERO author) Rob Hudson. I liked it so much I married the GM. (Okay, there were other reasons, too....)

 

Now I'm in three Pulp campaigns, including the original one. And oddly enough, while I've been playing in Pulp campaigns for fifteen years, in that time I've only played two scenarios in a Champions game. Supers just aren't that popular with my gaming group.

 

Mary Ann

[Questar]

Re: Getting the “Pulp Feel” with Hero

 

 

 

 

I guess I just don’t see as much of this. Maybe because I handle most of the mechanics for my players, so I don’t have to wait on The Slow Guy. (Every group has one, right?) As g-a suggested, having a lot of that stuff pre-calculated helps. Also since I know all the PCs and NPCs, it’s fairly easy to come up with a “ballpark” estimate for most attacks, ie “OK, I’m sure a 9- will hit here, and I know a 13+ is going to miss.” Well that takes care of 2 out of 3 rolls where I can just announce “hit” or “miss” and only 1 in 3 where I actually have to count all the modifiers.

 

(Again, please don’t take this as “I’m a better GM than you.” I’m just talking. )

 

I don't make any claims regarding how good a GM I am. I have my strengths and weaknesses. Quick math is not one of my strengths. Nor do I have the kind of memory that can instantly recall what the basic OCV is for all the PC's and badguys. I have to look it up. Yes, I can make it a bit faster by having it all on a single sheet, but I still often have to look it up. There are a lot of GM's who are better at this kind of tracking than me. (That is, they can keep this kind of stuff in their head.)

 

I expect my players to help me out by knowing what their OCV is.

 

Player A says. "I'm going to shoot the badguy with my energy blast."

 

Me: "Okay. What's your OCV?"

 

Player A: "A 12. I'm putting my Overall level into it."

 

Me: "Okay, how many hexes away ... let's see, eight hexes, so that's a range penalty of -2, for a 10 OCV. He's partially hidden behind that crate, so he'll have a +2 for partial concealment."

 

Player B "Maybe you should spread your blast, get a better chance to hit."

 

(Knowing that Player A is not that experienced, I allow Player B to offer him this advice and consider it, so that Player A can learn the system better.)

 

Player A "How do I spread my blast?"

 

(Player B takes time to explain the mechanics of this.)

 

Player A "Okay, I spread it for a +2 OCV."

 

Me: "Okay, your OCV is now 12."

 

Player A: "I rolled an 11, did I hit?"

 

Me: "Hang on, let me see what his DCV is."

 

I check the sheet, see where any levels might apply, and come up with a DCV of 10. I add the +2 DVC for partial concealment for a final DCV of 12.

 

Me: "Yes, it's a hit."

 

 

There is a typical example of a very simple combat manuever, a PC simply firing an energy blast. But all of those steps must be walked through to resolve this very basic attack. When you add martial arts, bouncing attacks, bracing, etc., etc., etc. ... the complexity goes up, and the time required to walk through the additional steps goes up too.

 

Those options are terrific for a detailed simulation of combat and allow the player a wide latitude of attack options. I consider it a strength of the system, and it is a part of why I have always played Hero over other systems.

 

But it's a strength that comes with a corresponding weakness, in that it takes time to calculate these things. The best GM in the world still has to go throught the steps of calculating OCV and DCV and applying modifiers. If you "ballpark" it all the time, then the players will eventually figure it out. I have had GM's who did this, basically just estimating to save time, and I found it annoying as a player. Why bother buying extra levels or coming up with a surprising maneuver if the GM is just going to sort of ballpark it anyway?

 

If you feel these mechanics "get out of the way" when you are playing, it likely has a lot to do with being extremely familiar with the basics and as Ghost-Angel said, having a focus on using just a few tactics.

 

Okay, what is it you want? Maybe you could come up with an alternate system for those part of the Hero system that you find problematic. Nothing is written in stone and new ideas could help us all.

 

Start with dog fighting. What do you need to make it feel right? Pulp is no more scientifically accurate than comics, so maybe you just need to build on the "Super" dogfight ideas. If not, a separate combat system could be designed for air combat. It's time consuming, but it might help you break your block.

 

If you can't find the perfect system perfect one yourself!

 

I think it would probably be easier to look for one that's already out there than to try to create one. There are dogfighting rules out there that are probably better than any I could come up with myself. I recall a terrific game from years ago called "Fight In The Skies" that really captured that sense of using altitude and manuevers as the core tactics in dogfighting.

 

I've also glanced through the Crimson Skies clix rules for dogfighting, but haven't given them a thorough read.

 

Possibly, combining something like Fight in the Skies with a simpler combat system like Savage Worlds would work to get closer to what I want, I don't know. But integrating systems can be tricky, too. What do you do, for example, if you have a flying character who doesn't use a plane? How do you integrate such characters into the dogfight? That's the very kind of consideration that made Hero give dogfighting rules such a simplified approach.

[JakSpade]

Re: Getting the “Pulp Feel” with Hero

 

When dealing with OCV calculations, I always stress to the players that they keep their OCV calculated this way: Add 11+OCV and subtract 3d6 and tell me what DCV you hit. I then tell them whether they hit or not. Much easier than comparing values and making the math more complex than it needs to be.

 

As far as using Fight in the Skies or Crimson Skies for dogfight rules, I say Go For It. Everything's got an airspeed and weapons. Compare the guy with the rocketpack in speed and maneuverability, and either treat him like a similar aircraft, or make up your own stats for him.

 

jak

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Getting the “Pulp Feel” with Hero

 

Those options are terrific for a detailed simulation of combat and allow the player a wide latitude of attack options. I consider it a strength of the system, and it is a part of why I have always played Hero over other systems.

 

But it's a strength that comes with a corresponding weakness, in that it takes time to calculate these things.

So... disallow the options you feel slow things down. Just because all those options are available doesn't mean you have to use them all (or permit your players to do so); the flexibility of Hero works both ways. All I'm saying is if you're looking for a simpler system, rather than hunting for an entirely different game system maybe you could just try running a simplified version of the system you already know. Might work for you, might not. Just a suggestion.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Getting the “Pulp Feel” with Hero

 

Indeed. If you look at the Basic Combat Rules there isn't too much variety. Pretty dirt simple actually.