Getting the “Pulp Feel” with Hero

[bigdamnhero]

The more I have thought about it' date=' the more I have felt that the HERO system is probably not my best choice for pulp. I want something less detailed and more spontaneous. I want a simpler combat system with a bit less predictability. Much as I love HERO for Champions, it just doesn't feel right for the freewheeling pulp genre. [/quote']

 

Rather than further derail the Thrilling Places thread, I thought I’d start a new discussion. The only PH games I’ve run so far have been one-shot demos and convention games. I've also played in a number of d20 Pulp games. Based on that (admittedly limited) experience, I think Hero works really well for Pulp as long as the GM makes a concerted effort to keep things moving.

 

But I’m curious what other folks have experienced:

• Do you feel it’s hard to capture the “freewheeling” feel of the Pulp genre with the Hero System? Why or why not?
  
• Is it just the perennial “how to speed up combat” question, or are there other considerations?
  
• What changes (if any) have you made to Hero mechanics in order to make it feel more Pulp?
  
• Do you use a lot of optional rules (Hit Location, Wounding, MPAs, etc) or keep it to the bare essentials?
  
• How simple/complicated do your Pulp PC & NPC builds tend to be?

It seems to me the pulps are closer stylistically to superhero comic books than any other genre. (Not surprising, since the later is in many ways a direct descendant of the former.) So in theory a system that models one well should be able to do the other well too, right? Why the disconnect (if there is one)?

 

Of course, my normal GMing style tends to be kinda fast & furious anyway, so that probably helps with Pulp. If a bit of handwavium is required to keep things moving, I'd generally rather err on the side of quick over accurate. OTOH I’m also borderline-obsessive about prep work ahead of time; it's easier to do that sort of thing when you know the PC's stats better than the players.

 

Your thoughts...give them to me.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Getting the “Pulp Feel” with Hero

 

Pulp is half in the attitude of play.

 

I think mechanically though you have to do a few things:

First and Foremost the GM must keep combat moving. Get an egg timer if you have to. This is true of several genres (Cyberpunk being another notable genre that needs this). A player takes too long, bam - lost phase.

 

Second, ditch optional rules, keep bleeding and limb loss for dramatically appropirate moments. Pulp is all about larger than life - reminds me of the Scene in the movie Last Action Hero when Arnie gets back in the movie after being gut shot in the real world the doc goes "What is this a joke?" And walks off after Arnie's character spent many minutes in very real pain in the "real world."

 

Keep it simple and sweet. Getting hurt is a whole lot of fluff until you reach 0 Body or lower and suddenly youv'e got a "Oh My God! You Killed Him! You FIEND!" moment.

 

Mook Rules - use 'em liberally. Unless it's a dramatic fight mooks go down fast and hard. The only danger is usually that the battle delays our heroes at a critical moment allowing something dramatic to happen (the doomsday device is activated, the mad scientist escapes, the girl is kidnapped successfully).

 

Did I mention keep combat moving? Good. Now apply that to everything. Keep it moving. Pulp is dramatic action.

 

No actual changes to mechanics need be made to Hero - the system does dramatic action supberbly well.

 

Oh and don't forget most bad guys have pathetic aim - OCV2-3 at best.

[JakSpade]

Re: Getting the “Pulp Feel” with Hero

 

Rather than further derail the Thrilling Places thread' date=' I thought I’d start a new discussion. The only PH games I’ve run so far have been one-shot demos and convention games. I've also played in a number of d20 Pulp games. Based on that (admittedly limited) experience, I think Hero works really well for Pulp [u']as long as[/u] the GM makes a concerted effort to keep things moving.

 

I'm starting to put my ideas down for a Pulp Hero game, and I find that the GM is going to have to keep a closer eye on pulp characters than regular, because I've noticed that with a lot of variance in the character types, skill levels tend to fly around a lot, and you have to make sure that the characters each have to be able to do ONE THING really well (a pilot be good at piloting, a soldier be good at fighting, etc). Once that gauge is in place, I think it will fall into place a lot better.

 

But I’m curious what other folks have experienced:

• Do you feel it’s hard to capture the “freewheeling” feel of the Pulp genre with the Hero System? Why or why not?
  

Actually, in it's current form, it's not that bad. HERO does a good job of managing combats in a way that everyone is capable of monitoring their characters up to any level of minutia, a lot like a miniatures game. But, fortunately enough, HERO is easy to alter (since all the pieces fit so well together) to fall in line with a fast paced freewheeling game.

• Is it just the perennial “how to speed up combat” question, or are there other considerations?

When I run my game, I'm going to remove the use of SPD and the speed chart. I won't be spending points for speed to round anything off or anything. If people want to purchase another attack, they can do so for 20pts, and that will allow them to make an additional half-action during their round. Other than that, you get your actions as normal during combat.

• What changes (if any) have you made to Hero mechanics in order to make it feel more Pulp?

Well, I am adding Luck Chits (house rules from the boards) to cover Hero Point type action, with rerolls, and dramatic editing for the players, so they have a little more control over the drama.

• Do you use a lot of optional rules (Hit Location, Wounding, MPAs, etc) or keep it to the bare essentials?

Mostly keeping to the essentials. There are some other ideas that I like from other games (such as aspects from Spirit of the Century), but they wouldn't fit with HERO.

• How simple/complicated do your Pulp PC & NPC builds tend to be?

Like I said earlier, I will write my PCs and NPCs so that they have at most ONE THING that they are really good at. This will probably include some Talents or power-like abilities. But I won't dip into the powers much at all, unless it has something to do with weird science or special abilities (which will be rare).

It seems to me the pulps are closer stylistically to superhero comic books than any other genre. (Not surprising, since the later is in many ways a direct descendant of the former.) So in theory a system that models one well should be able to do the other well too, right? Why the disconnect (if there is one)?

It depends on whether you want to go with an environment like The Rocketeer, where everyone's a skilled normal, with very little weird tech, or something like Sky Captain, where everyone is a skilled normal, and there's a lot of tech, to something like The Shadow, where everyone is a skilled normal with unusual powers/magic/abilities.

Of course, my normal GMing style tends to be kinda fast & furious anyway, so that probably helps with Pulp. If a bit of handwavium is required to keep things moving, I'd generally rather err on the side of quick over accurate. OTOH I’m also borderline-obsessive about prep work ahead of time; it's easier to do that sort of thing when you know the PC's stats better than the players.

 

Your thoughts...give them to me.

Well, I'd rather be accurate, but I tend to float towards the middle here when confronted with fast, feverous, flavor.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Getting the “Pulp Feel” with Hero

 

Another suggestion I'd make from my Justice Inc. pulp game days...

Luck. All over the place.

Consider allowing Luck balanced by and equal amount of Unluck to not apply against total cost, but act as a "0 point"/ Zero sum package deal.

Great for those Indiana Jones types. Pulp plots often seem to suddenly change fortune by the whim of fate (and plot), and Luck does a great job with this. I also used a "pushing your luck" system that is posted somewhere on here...

(Found it!)

This made for great Cliffhangers, as it was quite likely that by the end of an Episode, the Heros will have depleted their normal Luck reserves, and are suffering mightily under Bad Luck (The rickety rope bridge breaks, for instance),

But at the beginning of the next session, with their Luck suddenly back in force, they escape by some miracle that puts them onto the next leg of the plot.

[JakSpade]

Re: Getting the “Pulp Feel” with Hero

 

Here's the link to RDU Neil's house rules for Luck Chits, a lot like Hero Points, Bennies, or Action Points in other games...

 

jak

[Questar]

Re: Getting the “Pulp Feel” with Hero

 

Rather than further derail the Thrilling Places thread' date=' I thought I’d start a new discussion. The only PH games I’ve run so far have been one-shot demos and convention games. I've also played in a number of d20 Pulp games. Based on that (admittedly limited) experience, I think Hero works really well for Pulp [u']as long as[/u] the GM makes a concerted effort to keep things moving.

 

But I’m curious what other folks have experienced:

• Do you feel it’s hard to capture the “freewheeling” feel of the Pulp genre with the Hero System? Why or why not?

 
I've posted a couple of my thoughts on other threads, but I'll go into more detail here. I found it difficult to get that "freewheeling" feel that I associate with the pulp genre when I ran some "pulp-like" adventures in my regular Champions campaign. Since I don't have a current pulp campaign, I am speaking from limited experience, but it's enough to make me question the system for this genre. I see others here have felt a need to tweak things in the rules as well, with luck chits, "push your luck", etc. Those strike me as moves in the right direction, and they are moves that take you away from the HERO system.
 

Is it just the perennial “how to speed up combat” question, or are there other considerations?
What changes (if any) have you made to Hero mechanics in order to make it feel more Pulp?
Do you use a lot of optional rules (Hit Location, Wounding, MPAs, etc) or keep it to the bare essentials?

 
It's far more than just a "speed-up combat" question, though that's part of the goal. In the only full Pulp session I ran, I dropped the Speed Chart, and that helped out a great deal. I found it helped not only to speed up combat, but also to keep the players actively involved at all times. Plus, it meant that the mooks were moving as often as the PC's, which kicked up the tension a lot. Tension...tension...that's a key part of the pulp "feel" to me.
 
But I made the mooks go down with a single hit from a killing attack, or two hits from a normal attack. That also not only speeded up combat, but helped get the "feel" of the genre. In pulp, if a guy gets shot, he goes down and may well be dead. No having to shoot him two or three times, and then he falls unconscious from the stun multiplier. The mechanics of killing attacks in HERO are a big drawback to getting the pulp feel, IMO.
 
Those are the only real changes I made, but as you can see, that's already moving away from the HERO system. I would make more changes if I did it again, such as adding the luck chits. I would use no optional rules at all, and even simplify combat further. More on that below.
 

How simple/complicated do your Pulp PC & NPC builds tend to be?

It seems to me the pulps are closer stylistically to superhero comic books than any other genre. (Not surprising, since the later is in many ways a direct descendant of the former.) So in theory a system that models one well should be able to do the other well too, right? Why the disconnect (if there is one)?

 

I don't think that pulp is stylistically close to the comics except in very broad ways. The detail needed to model the complex power sets in comics is not needed or appropriate for the simple guns and flying fists of pulp ... or I should say, for the kind of pulp "feel' that I envision personally. I don't mean that you couldn't have a fun, "pulpish" style adventure using HERO. I just mean that approaching the genre with a HERO mindset will likely still yield a game that has a complex, detailed approach to combat. It might be a fun "period" adventure, but not really different in flavor than a low-powered superhero game. That's not what I am really looking for in this genre.

 

To me, the combat aspect of pulp is not as important as it is in a superhero game. What is important is ACTION (as opposed to combat) and a dose of the bizarre, even the horrific. It's important that the characters (in general) have to fear bullets and knives and falling from heights and ravening, rabid dogs. They must be constantly on the go, moving quickly from one goal to the next. Spending an extended time on a single combat works against this, and in HERO, even the simple combats often wind up taking extended time because of all the options available.

 

I think the HERO system would tend to bog the genre down with details and fine points. Not that I have found a substitute system that I like (yet). If I were trying to adapt HERO to my vision of pulp, I would probably eliminate martial arts entirely. Things like fencing I would probably resolve with a skill v skill roll, maybe the best 2 out of 3 or something like that. I don't know, I'm just thinking out loud. But I would radically streamline things to try to get the flavor of the genre and just to keep things moving.

 

 

 

Of course, my normal GMing style tends to be kinda fast & furious anyway, so that probably helps with Pulp. If a bit of handwavium is required to keep things moving, I'd generally rather err on the side of quick over accurate. OTOH I’m also borderline-obsessive about prep work ahead of time; it's easier to do that sort of thing when you know the PC's stats better than the players.

 

Your thoughts...give them to me.

 

Well, I admit I'm still forming my thoughts. I am just giving some tentative leanings here. And it seems unlikely I will get a chance to explore this genre using any system.

[Prometheus]

Re: Getting the “Pulp Feel” with Hero

 

To me' date=' the combat aspect of pulp is not as important as it is in a superhero game. What is important is ACTION (as opposed to combat) and a dose of the bizarre, even the horrific. It's important that the characters (in general) have to fear bullets and knives and falling from heights and ravening, rabid dogs.([/quote']

 

This touches on one of those balancing acts the GM and player need to be aware of. If the characters are too easily defeated by the mundane, the players may be to reluctant to expose their character to danger. That's understandable, they're invested. If on the other hand the characters are immune to most of the challenges they face, they're going to run rampant. I've always felt that pulp characters need to straddle the two- not to powerful, but not too fragile or ineffectual either.

 

An excellent primer on pulp gaming can be found here.

[JakSpade]

Re: Getting the “Pulp Feel” with Hero

 

I think that one of the things that we tend to forget is that a lot of the elements that make the genre "actiony" are just story elements, not mechanics issues. And it's how we model those story elements using the game system that make it more exciting. Removing some elements of HERO and adding others to model the action elements of the typical pulp story doesn't make HERO any less the game system that it is. Sure, you could use some other system, but for those of you who use and like HERO, you use it because the pieces fit so well together that you can model what you want without losing the system you like.

 

So, yes, the heroes fear bullets, falling, and mummies. But they survive because they are lucky, or good at what they do, or because they are the main characters of the story. The game system gives you all the parts you need to model all these story elements in game mechanics, or fudge them as you feel. It really shouldn't be any more difficult to model pulp in HERO than any other game system, unless that system has been taylored specifically to deal with pulp story elements.

 

jak

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Getting the “Pulp Feel” with Hero

 

I see others here have felt a need to tweak things in the rules as well' date=' with luck chits, "push your luck", etc. Those strike me as moves in the right direction, and they are moves that take you away from the HERO system. [/quote']

I agree about some kind of luck chits being good for Pulp, and typically use them myself. But I don't necessarily see that as being "away from" Hero; the Heroic Action Points system in Pulp Hero is a great example.

 

I dropped the Speed Chart' date=' and that helped out a great deal. I found it helped not only to speed up combat, but also to keep the players actively involved at all times. Plus, it meant that the mooks were moving as often as the PC's, which kicked up the tension a lot. [/quote']

I use the Speed Chart, but since 90% of the PCs and NPCs (not counting non-combatant civilians) have either SPD 3 or SPD 4, it's not nearly as big a factor as in, say, a superheroes game. But then that's true for most of the heroic-level games I run. Also, I keep everybody's SPD & DEX on a little chart; that way I tell the players when it's their phase, rather than waiting for them to tell me. Helps keep things moving.

 

But I made the mooks go down with a single hit from a killing attack' date=' or two hits from a normal attack. That also not only speeded up combat, but helped get the "feel" of the genre. In pulp, if a guy gets shot, he goes down and may well be dead. No having to shoot him two or three times, and then he falls unconscious from the stun multiplier. [/quote']

I totally agree that most mooks in Pulp should have glass jaws. But given the lethality of firearms in Hero (compared to, say, d20 Modern) and the lack of armor in Pulp (mooks don't get Combat Luck), I've never had a problem with this. And if a mook goes down from STUN, I generally consider him dead. (Unless I want the heroes to have a prisoner.) Oh, I typically use a flat x3 STUN multiplier, but again I do that for most games if I'm not using hit locations.

 

I don't think that pulp is stylistically close to the comics except in very broad ways.

I was thinking in broad terms. Yes, radically different power sets; I just meant that the action tends to be very "comic-booky." Or at least it used to be, pre-Iron Age.

 

What is important is ACTION (as opposed to combat)

Well put, tho personally I would say the same thing about most RPG genres, including supers.

 

It's important that the characters (in general) have to fear bullets and knives and falling from heights and ravening' date=' rabid dogs. They must be constantly on the go, moving quickly from one goal to the next. [/quote']

Again, I agree. One of my favorite mechanics for this is "Hero's Grace" from PH, Combat Luck that always lets the first point of BODY through. Doesn't slow play down, but helps the players feel like they're in danger.

 

I think the HERO system would tend to bog the genre down with details and fine points.

Only if you let it. Just because all the details and options are there, doesn't mean you have to use all of them.

 

Not that I have found a substitute system that I like (yet).

You mentioned Savage Worlds in the previous thread - I haven't played it myself, but from my friends that have, it sounds closer to what you're looking for. But I'm sticking with Hero.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Getting the “Pulp Feel” with Hero

 

you have to make sure that the characters each have to be able to do ONE THING really well (a pilot be good at piloting' date=' a soldier be good at fighting, etc). Once that gauge is in place, I think it will fall into place a lot better.[/quote']

That's a really good standard to use.

 

Like I said earlier' date=' I will write my PCs and NPCs so that they have at most ONE THING that they are really good at. This will probably include some Talents or power-like abilities. But I won't dip into the powers much at all, unless it has something to do with weird science or special abilities (which will be rare).[/quote']

Most of the Pulp characters I've written have at most one, maybetwo powers. They feel more like Talents, really, and with only one or two they're not hard to manage.

 

Well' date=' I'd rather be accurate, but I tend to float towards the middle here when confronted with fast, feverous, flavor. [/quote']

Yeah, I'd rather be fast and accurate. I just meant that if it's a choice between the two, I'll usually go with whatever keeps the game moving the best.

[The Monster]

Re: Getting the “Pulp Feel” with Hero

 

Re: speeding up combat.

I use the SPD chart - but for my pulp campaigns, every PC is SPD3 unless they have a really good character reason (martial artist, basically). It really makes it easier when the SPD range is 2-4 instead of 2-9. It's one of the things that slows down Champions, IMO.

 

I don't so much use special combat rules for mooks as I do special recovery rules - basically, once they're KO'd, mooks won't get back into the fight - for many, even if they're just Stunned, they don't wanna play any more. One of the subtle distinctions between street punks and "elite" mooks is that the elite mooks usually have to be actually KO's or killed to put them away for good. I also don't waste time thnking too much about what mooks do - they'll generally either stand there and fight, dive for cover, or run away, nothing clever or daring. As someone else pointed out, story element, not mechanic element.

 

I actually do use hit locations, too. When targeting mooks, the primary application is for those head/vital shots that put the poor sod out instantly, and for the arm/leg hits that probably aren't important - yes, he's hit, but not badly enough to make him stop. I rarely keep real count of hit points (BODY or STUN) for mooks; a good hit takes 'em out, otherwise they're fine, unless they've been winged three or four times. And the color commentary for hit locations is too good to pass up.

[nanniemouse]

Re: Getting the “Pulp Feel” with Hero

 

The biggest problem with the "feel" of my game is the fact that most of the players didn't really know Pulp. The players that do actively keep the feeling going. It's more an attitude than mechanics. If the Players and the GM are working together it works.

.

I like "Heroic Action Points". Yeah, it takes a moment to decide if they are going to use their precious points, but the players take more risks when they have a safety net (although their luck does run out). It creates situations where they go like gangbusters at the beginning of a session, but start having difficulties at the end if they were too liberal with their points. It spurs tension and creativity.

 

I find charts with speed, con, and dex as well as body and stun are useful to keep combat moving. I just run my finger down the page and tell the player when it's his turn rather than make the players figure out who goes next. If I have their defences on the list, I can just say" You've taken 20 stun and are stunned" rather than giving them their damage and waiting for them to do the math. Plastic page protectors and transparency pens make it easy to note damage and changes as we go. It seems to be more a case of organization than actual mechanics for my group.

 

I still have some problems with some of the mechanics I am not as familiar with, but I am going through the characters and making notes of any rules I need to keep in mind for their individual abilities. Charts of various combat maneuvers and modifiers help. I find the more prepared the GM is, the less problems there are with the "mechanics".

 

Kathleen

[Questar]

Re: Getting the “Pulp Feel” with Hero

 

I agree about some kind of luck chits being good for Pulp, and typically use them myself. But I don't necessarily see that as being "away from" Hero; the Heroic Action Points system in Pulp Hero is a great example.

 

 

I use the Speed Chart, but since 90% of the PCs and NPCs (not counting non-combatant civilians) have either SPD 3 or SPD 4, it's not nearly as big a factor as in, say, a superheroes game. But then that's true for most of the heroic-level games I run. Also, I keep everybody's SPD & DEX on a little chart; that way I tell the players when it's their phase, rather than waiting for them to tell me. Helps keep things moving.

 

 

I totally agree that most mooks in Pulp should have glass jaws. But given the lethality of firearms in Hero (compared to, say, d20 Modern) and the lack of armor in Pulp (mooks don't get Combat Luck), I've never had a problem with this. And if a mook goes down from STUN, I generally consider him dead. (Unless I want the heroes to have a prisoner.) Oh, I typically use a flat x3 STUN multiplier, but again I do that for most games if I'm not using hit locations.

 

 

I was thinking in broad terms. Yes, radically different power sets; I just meant that the action tends to be very "comic-booky." Or at least it used to be, pre-Iron Age.

 

 

Well put, tho personally I would say the same thing about most RPG genres, including supers.

 

 

Again, I agree. One of my favorite mechanics for this is "Hero's Grace" from PH, Combat Luck that always lets the first point of BODY through. Doesn't slow play down, but helps the players feel like they're in danger.

 

 

Only if you let it. Just because all the details and options are there, doesn't mean you have to use all of them.

 

 

You mentioned Savage Worlds in the previous thread - I haven't played it myself, but from my friends that have, it sounds closer to what you're looking for. But I'm sticking with Hero.

 

 

And I hope you have a blast. I'm certainly not trying to convince anyone to use a different system. I've hardly ever played anything else in years of gaming.

 

I mentioned Savage Worlds, but I haven't played it, just skimmed through the free "demo rules" on the website. I don't know whether it would work for the kind of "pulp-feel" I am looking for, but reading the posts here is making the conviction grow that Hero really won't give me that gaming experience.

 

For me, it's not just a matter of speeding up combat or even of cultivating a particular "attitude". I have been down all of those routes to some degree or other, and I think the HERO combats I run are really as fast as they can be. I use a software program called GM Aid which tracks through the speed chart, remembers who has a held phase or half-phase, rolls and calculates dice for the villains (and heroes too, if they want), applies defenses automatically and instantaneously does the math for things like explosions, damage reduction, and so on. I've had years of experience with the system, and have a sense of when to linger and I know how to push things along.

 

But maybe it's because I have been playing so long that a sort of "hero-game" mindset has crept into my playing. It all has basically the same feel to me no matter what genre I play. I am still approaching the game with the same sort of strategies and expectations, just on different levels. (And I have played the system with all sorts of different point levels.)

 

And since for me, the genre I started with was superheroes, every Hero game feels like a modifed version of superheroes. That is okay in a way, because that is the genre I have enjoyed the most. But when I played in a fantasy campaign, my wizard character began to feel to me like a low-level superhero.

 

I think what I may be wanting in a pulp campaign is something that would make me approach the game in a really different way with a different set of priorities and mindset. Maybe what I am envisioning would be closer to a narrative style of playing where the mechanics of the game are more hidden, and the players take their actions not by calculating OCV and counting hexes, but just by having a sense of what they can do and reacting in character. There would still have to be some underlying mechanics, but vastly simplified, so that it didn't intrude and become the focus of the game.

 

Again, I'm just thinking out loud here. But Hero is designed to be a detailed *simulation* of combat, played out second by second. This is exactly what you need to depict the frame-by-frame action of comic book superheroic combats. And certainly you can run combats in a pulp setting with the same level of detail. But the source material of pulps has a different feel to it when I read it. The combats are less defined, without drawing a picture of every detail, without describing every punch or bullet. It gives the *sense* of fast and furous action, but in a more abstract way. Often the reader is seeing things through the eyes and emotions of a single character, and the emotional state of that character is often the focus, rather than specific description of the combat.

 

So perhaps what I am looking for is more a *sense* of combat rather than a *simulation* of combat to some degree. Something that doesn't feel like a frame-by-frame depiction. And something that moves so fast that you aren't stopping to think about range penalites or the bonus you get from a martial maneuver. And something that encourages the player to think outside the box of the phased, segmented movement of Hero.

 

Is there such a system? I don't know. I've never really been tempted to look much outside of Hero before. But my particular enjoyment of the pulp source material makes me want to find a system that could capture those aspects of it that I enjoy. And maybe if I find something, I can persuade my players to give it a try.

[BigJackBrass]

Re: Getting the “Pulp Feel” with Hero

 

So perhaps what I am looking for is more a *sense* of combat rather than a *simulation* of combat to some degree. Something that doesn't feel like a frame-by-frame depiction. And something that moves so fast that you aren't stopping to think about range penalites or the bonus you get from a martial maneuver. And something that encourages the player to think outside the box of the phased, segmented movement of Hero.

 

Is there such a system?

 

You might well find much of what you are looking for with Fudge and in particular a new RPG built on the FATE system, which is a variant of Fudge, called Spirit of the Century. The basic system is very, very simple, using descriptive attributes and skills rated on a "ladder," so if you roll well your result moves up the ladder and if you roll poorly it moves down. This means you have results such as a "Good" punch or "Suberb" bluff.

 

That in itself doesn't make for an excellent pulp game, but the chaps at Evil Hat, who publish SotC, have included a very interesting system to encourage creative use of the environment and having players take actions that might have negative effects for them. In essence, it amounts to bribery from the GM, but they couch it in more sophisticated terms More than almost any game I have seen, this one captures the spirit and the feeling of pulp action. For anyone having trouble with Hero in this instance I think you'll get a lot out of reading Spirit of the Century, even if it's only to pinch the good ideas and adapt them.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Getting the “Pulp Feel” with Hero

 

One of the big things, and I think it was already brought up, is you won't get the Pulp Feel at all without players who want to play Pulp. Regardless of the system.

 

If the players are really into Pulp Action and Pulp Storytelling then the system will mean less, in fact Hero is a great choice because it has, in my experience, a great habit of getting the heck out of the way of the Players when they sit down to play and get whatever feel they want from the game.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Getting the “Pulp Feel” with Hero

 

One of the big things, and I think it was already brought up, is you won't get the Pulp Feel at all without players who want to play Pulp. Regardless of the system.

 

If the players are really into Pulp Action and Pulp Storytelling then the system will mean less, in fact Hero is a great choice because it has, in my experience, a great habit of getting the heck out of the way of the Players when they sit down to play and get whatever feel they want from the game.

What I was trying to say, only more concisely put. (As usual.)

 

I've played Pulp with Hero, d20, and Savage Worlds. And I can honestly say system matters far less than the attitude of the GM & players.

[Questar]

Re: Getting the “Pulp Feel” with Hero

 

You might well find much of what you are looking for with Fudge and in particular a new RPG built on the FATE system' date=' which is a variant of [i']Fudge[/i], called Spirit of the Century. The basic system is very, very simple, using descriptive attributes and skills rated on a "ladder," so if you roll well your result moves up the ladder and if you roll poorly it moves down. This means you have results such as a "Good" punch or "Suberb" bluff.

 

That in itself doesn't make for an excellent pulp game, but the chaps at Evil Hat, who publish SotC, have included a very interesting system to encourage creative use of the environment and having players take actions that might have negative effects for them. In essence, it amounts to bribery from the GM, but they couch it in more sophisticated terms More than almost any game I have seen, this one captures the spirit and the feeling of pulp action. For anyone having trouble with Hero in this instance I think you'll get a lot out of reading Spirit of the Century, even if it's only to pinch the good ideas and adapt them.

 

 

I will indeed check this out. Thanks for the tip. Savage Worlds does seem to be a faster-moving system than Hero and more suited to the fast and furous pulp genre, but I am not totally sold on it. I will have to playtest it at some point I suppose. I am not sure that it is worth learning a new system if I can come up with a way to radically modify Hero for my purposes. Spirit of the Century may give me some ideas or point me in a direction I hadn't thought of.

[JakSpade]

Re: Getting the “Pulp Feel” with Hero

 

I really like Savage Worlds, but I'm kinda getting tired of everyone suggesting it for every type of play. I just don't think it can cut everything as well as Hero.

 

IMHO, moving from Hero to Savage Worlds is alright, but it just doesn't fill the void for me. I like the way they have the system set up, and it does play fast and furious, but the system just doesn't seem whole to me. To me, I like to see the underlying system, rather than the lists generated by the system. The edges and hinderances are nice, but they just seem created and a cost slapped on them. It's kind of like a "teach a man to fish" thing. If I know that a 1pt edge is light, a 2pt edge is moderate and a 3pt edge is heavy, and the same with hinderances, it would feel better to me.

 

And the exploding dice is another thing. It's great to put forth a cinematic feel, but sometimes it can get wild and trump the story.

 

Bah! Enough ranting on this. I've had this discussion with all my friends. It's probably the reason why we aren't playing Hero right now, just a bunch of SW games...

 

jak

[Questar]

Re: Getting the “Pulp Feel” with Hero

 

One of the big things, and I think it was already brought up, is you won't get the Pulp Feel at all without players who want to play Pulp. Regardless of the system.

 

If the players are really into Pulp Action and Pulp Storytelling then the system will mean less, in fact Hero is a great choice because it has, in my experience, a great habit of getting the heck out of the way of the Players when they sit down to play and get whatever feel they want from the game.

 

 

No doubt, if the players aren't into it, no RPG will work, whatever the genre.

 

But it hasn't been my experience that Hero "gets out of the way" of the players. I'm speaking specifically about mechanics of combat here. While Hero offers a staggering array of options, it requires a lot of attention to detail to play out those options and resolve them. You must be willing to invest a certain degree of time to simulate that level of detail. And when you have been doing it for quite awhile you develop certain expectations and mindsets about how to do it.

 

 

 

I've played Pulp with Hero, d20, and Savage Worlds. And I can honestly say system matters far less than the attitude of the GM & players.

 

Assuming such a positive attitude by players and GM, I think it's inescapable that the system used will have a big impact on the game. Not all systems are created equal. Not all of them do all things equally well, and some are more suited to a particular kind of gaming experience than others.

 

Sure, you can create a good game with a variety of different systems and have a lot of fun. But if you're going for a particular kind of flavor, choosing the right system is very important. That's why I have always used Hero for my superhero campaigns. I just feel that it provides me with the full range to create the kind of superhero gaming experience I want. I don't think I would like a d20 game nearly as well, no matter how good the attitude of the other players and GM.

 

My players have a positive attitude to my games, and while they may not be all that familiar with original pulp source material, they know Indiana Jones and Sky Captain and The Shadow to some degree. I think they could move into a pulp setting easily enough. But if they do, I want to give them a gaming experience that is significantly different than the superhero campaign they're used to. I want the game to have a faster flow and wilder feel. I think it's legitimate to try to look for a system that will help me accomplish that.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Getting the “Pulp Feel” with Hero

 

But it hasn't been my experience that Hero "gets out of the way" of the players. I'm speaking specifically about mechanics of combat here. While Hero offers a staggering array of options' date=' it requires a lot of attention to detail to play out those options and resolve them. You must be willing to invest a certain degree of time to simulate that level of detail. And when you have been doing it for quite awhile you develop certain expectations and mindsets about how to do it.[/quote']

 

Our experiences differ in that regards. Sure Hero Combat has a staggering array of options, but most people focus on a few tactics to utilize.

 

And quite frankly - I guess I just have less trouble running through Hero Combat. I don't find it clunky, slow, overwhelming, or particularly time consuming compared to any other system I've ever played.

 

In fact - when you get right down to it I've run Hero Combat faster in some cases than any other system I've tried. It may just be experience with it but I've been in plenty of Hero games where combat just FLIES.

[Questar]

Re: Getting the “Pulp Feel” with Hero

 

Our experiences differ in that regards. Sure Hero Combat has a staggering array of options, but most people focus on a few tactics to utilize.

 

And quite frankly - I guess I just have less trouble running through Hero Combat. I don't find it clunky, slow, overwhelming, or particularly time consuming compared to any other system I've ever played.

 

In fact - when you get right down to it I've run Hero Combat faster in some cases than any other system I've tried. It may just be experience with it but I've been in plenty of Hero games where combat just FLIES.

 

 

I wouldn't call Hero combat clunky or overwhelming. And I have become adept at running it over the years of experience I've had with it.

 

Some years back our group consisted of three players and a GM. Combat went fairly quickly, everyone was experienced with the rules and it never seemed to drag out. However, I can't recall that it ever FLEW. Sometimes we were into it so much that it seemed to fly, but actually a regular combat still took quite a bit of time. We'd look up and be surprised at how much time had gone by.

 

Now we have a group that is six, sometimes seven players and a GM. The players are at different levels of experience, some of them relatively new. Combat at times just seems to creep along. With a higher number of PC's, the number of villains is often higher too. A GM can only do so much to move things along in a situation like this. Believe me, I've been through all the options (single combat challenges, breaking into two groups and having players run villains for the other group, etc.).

 

I can't compare Hero's combat system to others as I haven't played others much. But I do find Hero combats are time-consuming, and it's my strong impression that most people who have played other systems find Hero to be slower than most due to its complexity.

 

If I had to point to one thing that slowed things down the most it would probably be determining the current OCV and DCV in any given attack. With so many different ways that each can be modified, it can take time to remember them all and apply each one. Applying damage and tracking phases is a breeze for me, since it's all taken care of by my GMaid software.

 

That being said, I think the main reason I am dissatisfied with Hero for the pulp genre is that after years of playing Hero, I feel the need for a change to stimulate my thinking and change my gaming mindset. In the past when I felt sor of burned out, I might create a new character or even start a whole new campaign. But to move into a different genre now, I feel like I need to shake things up even more and find a completely different approach.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Getting the “Pulp Feel” with Hero

 

If I had to point to one thing that slowed things down the most it would probably be determining the current OCV and DCV in any given attack. With so many different ways that each can be modified' date=' it can take time to remember them all and apply each one. Applying damage and tracking phases is a breeze for me, since it's all taken care of by my GMaid software.[/quote']

 

I find this slows things down because people refuse to do some basic adding before it's actually required. Get a piece of paper and write down some of the most common combinations you're likely to use, precalulate the maneuvers OCV/DCV before combat, attach that to your character sheet.

 

Actually, I just got a great addition to my HD Export Templates. precalculated Martial Maneuver OCV/DCV.

 

I dunno, to me switch genre's is a lot like switching systems. I approach Hero with a different attitude for each Genre I play. I don't look at the mechanics of a character for the Star Hero game as I do for the Champions game I'm in.

[Questar]

Re: Getting the “Pulp Feel” with Hero

 

I find this slows things down because people refuse to do some basic adding before it's actually required. Get a piece of paper and write down some of the most common combinations you're likely to use, precalulate the maneuvers OCV/DCV before combat, attach that to your character sheet.

 

Actually, I just got a great addition to my HD Export Templates. precalculated Martial Maneuver OCV/DCV.

 

I dunno, to me switch genre's is a lot like switching systems. I approach Hero with a different attitude for each Genre I play. I don't look at the mechanics of a character for the Star Hero game as I do for the Champions game I'm in.

 

 

I'm not familiar with Star Hero, but I assume it does use the same basic mechanics of the Hero system. You still have segmented, phased movement with combat broken down into one second intervals. You still attack and defend with the same maneuvers and resolve damage the same way.

 

What got me to thinking about switching the system for pulp was the success I had in the only pulp session I ever ran by heavily modifying the Hero rules. Suddenly the game had a very different "feel" just because the mechanics had been modified to a degree. I was surprised at how much I liked how this worked and how much it helped me get closer to the pulp "feel" that I wanted.

 

But it still had some rough edges that I wasn't satisfied with. I reasoned that if a modification of the system helped push me in the direction I wanted to go, that I could get even closer by finding a more fully developed system along the lines of my modifications.

 

All very subjective, of course, but it opened my eyes to just how much the system itself imposes a certain style of play on a game.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Getting the “Pulp Feel” with Hero

 

Star Hero is simply Heroic level sci-fi Hero. Arguably it is merely an extension of Space Pulp type stuff. Star Wars would be good Star Hero fodder.

 

Personally, any style of play the system imposes is not a restriction the system imposes but a line of thought on how we interpret the system. My style of play varies greatly from genre to genre in how I interpret the rules. And it is true that not all options are appropriate for all genre.

 

I've had excellent success with Hero in various Heroic type settings that have nothing to do with Supers, and the mechanics have always nicely gotten the heck out of my way when I sit down to play.

 

I think part of it is not that I modify the rules - but sometimes just knowing when to ignore them in place of daramatic story telling is important.

 

Getting back on the "combar felt like it was going fast even thought it took a long time" aspect - as long as combat FEELS like it's moving quickly, then it is regardless of what the ticks on the clock say. If you can keep the dramatic tension up (important in some genre's like Pulp, a tense Modern day firefight between normals, an epic super battle, a running chase through a sci-fi city, or what have you) you've got a winner.

 

And mechanics have less to do with that than I think you give them credit for. If the mechanics are getting in the way it's simply possible one of two things are happening:

1) a new player unfamiliar with the rules and is still trying to grok things. (in this case only I recommend removing many options until things pick up and the start to reintroduce them)

2) Overanalyzation. The player (or players) have gone into Tactical Simulation Mode (Chess Game Syndrome) and have completely forgotten the context of the game and tension altogether. (the only solution here is to hit them with 5ER, which is heavy enough to knock the smaller players out, and hope they gain some sense of Game back.)

 

I don't think any heavy modification of the rules is required. But on the fly "Dang, can't remember, here use these numbers" is a big help.

 

I for one can never remember supression fire rules, even if the player used them every session for six sessions strait. I ended up giving modifiers I felt warranted the situation off the cuff. The player didn't seem to care, and it kept the action flowing.

 

The biggest things with all the options around is if you can't remember one - well, make it up and deal with it later if at all. But 90% of the time the rules are pretty strait forward and on the character sheet.

[Questar]

Re: Getting the “Pulp Feel” with Hero

 

Star Hero is simply Heroic level sci-fi Hero. Arguably it is merely an extension of Space Pulp type stuff. Star Wars would be good Star Hero fodder.

 

Personally, any style of play the system imposes is not a restriction the system imposes but a line of thought on how we interpret the system.

 

 

I think there's more to it than that, which is why I have chosen Hero in the past over other systems for the kind of gaming experience I wanted. IMO, the system DID make a difference, and Hero gave me something I couldn't get elsewhere.

 

But even supposing you were right that any restriction was rooted in my interpretation rather than the system itself, the restriction would be real, nonetheless.

 

I can see this being true in my case one one level, anyway. I mentioned in another thread that playing fantasy wizards in the Hero system was unsatisfactory to me because it always felt to me like I was playing a superhero, not a wizard. If I had started out using Hero in fantasy campaigns as a wizard, then I likely wouldn't have felt that way. But because I began with Champions and clearly understood the superhero roots behind the logic of the mechanics, that became my association with the Hero system. I could see that the foundation behind the different decisions in creating the system was based on an attempt to recreate superheroic stories and combat. I thought it was brilliantly achieved. And it was clear to me that if the goal had been a different genre, different sorts of decisions would have been made.

 

From a rational standpoint, and this is where I agree with part of your point, there is no reason why the mechanics in Hero could not apply equally well to a fantasy wizard as to a superhero. I understand that. But human beings are not just rational, we are also intuitive. On some level I cannot escape the superhero associations I have with the system. You can put it down to a limitation of mine rather than the system, but that doesn't change the fact that it is real. In fantasy games, I dealt with it by playing warriors rather than wizards.

 

With pulp, things are more complex. I have some specific things I'm looking for. For example, dogfighting, which I find unsatisfactory in Hero. The crucial elements of use of altitude and airspeed are just not modelled. I'm not faulting Hero for this. This is probably true of any RPG that is not specifically designed to be a dogfighting game, and for flying superhero characters it is better left out. The sort of nod and handwave that Hero gives ship-to-ship dogfighting is probably the best way to handle it for supers, and keeps things from becoming even more overly complex. But for pulp, I'd really like to find something that brings out the feeling of dogfighting that is described in many of those old aviator pulps. I think I'd want something similar if I were playing a Star Wars type of campaign, though realistically the dogfighting would be vastly different without gravity ... more like the way flying characters "dogfight" in Champions.

 

Anyway, this example is not just a limit based on my personal interpretation of the system, but a desire for a different type of game mechanic than what is inherent in the system. There are other examples I could cite about what I'm looking for, but this one is probably the most concrete.