Nnd

[zornwil]

Re: Nnd

 

People can do so but there is no discussion in the rules anywhere on how to get that kind of feel to the game.

 

Old hands know that the critical part of any game is the setting up by the GM and the design of the heroes and villains. All of that kind of thing can be written into the design of attacks and defences making it easy for the GM to get the playstyle he's looking for.

 

A newbie has no chance and the gameplay will, most likely, be the lowest achievable by the game and thus less likely to grab and inspire and make them think - yeah Hero rocks....

 

 

Doc

Okay, I see where you're going. To me, in some part but not entirely, it overlaps with my other comments on the importance of discussing the rules objectives/philosophy. Anyway, yes, I think that is part of a holistic discussion on SFX and the larger scope of how to manage run-time (so to speak). Good point.

[zornwil]

Re: Nnd

 

I want to rep for this but, alas, I cannot.

 

something about spreading it around. Like Rep is some kind of preserve. Rep Preserves! goes good on toast.

Thanks.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Nnd

 

That's not metagaming. Why wouldn't anyone engaged in fighting with guys with tough stuff make things to break tough stuff?

 

I see it as systemic metagaming: Hero trying to cover all the angles. You CAN, in game terms, think of an attack that puts SOME damage through almost ANY defence, you have to have it for some sort of comlpeteness sake, even if there is not a real world analogue or internal logic to it.

 

OddHat gives some good examples of when penetrating could be used, but I do have 'logic' problems with them all:

 

The monofilament wire - so sharp you don't know you've been cut. Well i've cut myself a few times with things so sharp I have not realised immediately and I'b build it like this: 1d6 HKA (Custom limitation: -1/2 the stun damage is applied in the target's NEXT phase) - IME it may not hurt immediately, but it does hurt (actually it may not hurt as much as normal so you could build it with reduced stun multiplier.

 

The problem with building that with penetrating is that , against an unarmoured opponent, the same assumptions do not apply - same with the 'stilletto slipping through armour' scenario - if it does not hurt much slipping between the ribs of an armoured opponent, it should not hurt much slipping betweent he ribs of an unarmoured one. Moreover it assumes weaknesses in the armour that are found on every hit (well you could build the penetrating with an activation or RSR roll I suppose, but I've never seen it done that way).

 

The iron shirt technique v the Ki strike sufferes the same sort of problems as above and would seem to me better suited to the NND approach. I appreciate that it is a matter of style, especially when you are talking about something unquantifyable like a Ki strike, but again I am not sure I like the way the final result pans out against a range of opponents.

 

The problem, with penetrating, as I contended above is that it is a system meta-construct. I would not 'blame' or criticise anyone for using it as it is a part of the core system. I just don't think it should be there.

[SpydirShellX]

Re: Nnd

 

I see it as systemic metagaming: Hero trying to cover all the angles. You CAN, in game terms, think of an attack that puts SOME damage through almost ANY defence, you have to have it for some sort of comlpeteness sake, even if there is not a real world analogue or internal logic to it.

 

OddHat gives some good examples of when penetrating could be used, but I do have 'logic' problems with them all:

 

The monofilament wire - so sharp you don't know you've been cut. Well i've cut myself a few times with things so sharp I have not realised immediately and I'b build it like this: 1d6 HKA (Custom limitation: -1/2 the stun damage is applied in the target's NEXT phase) - IME it may not hurt immediately, but it does hurt (actually it may not hurt as much as normal so you could build it with reduced stun multiplier.

 

I've had paper-cuts that the only cause I could think of happened hours ago.

 

The problem with building that with penetrating is that , against an unarmoured opponent, the same assumptions do not apply - same with the 'stilletto slipping through armour' scenario - if it does not hurt much slipping between the ribs of an armoured opponent, it should not hurt much slipping betweent he ribs of an unarmoured one. Moreover it assumes weaknesses in the armour that are found on every hit (well you could build the penetrating with an activation or RSR roll I suppose, but I've never seen it done that way).

 

The iron shirt technique v the Ki strike sufferes the same sort of problems as above and would seem to me better suited to the NND approach. I appreciate that it is a matter of style, especially when you are talking about something unquantifyable like a Ki strike, but again I am not sure I like the way the final result pans out against a range of opponents.

 

The problem, with penetrating, as I contended above is that it is a system meta-construct. I would not 'blame' or criticise anyone for using it as it is a part of the core system. I just don't think it should be there.

 

Actually, I think the stilletto example is a good one... just not the assumption that it's required to hit weak spots in the armor as it's function. The idea should more be a stilletto with a strong enough blade that it can get through the armor (except that hardened against such things) despite it. I think that penetrating represents attacks that focus large amounts of effort in very small spaces.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Nnd

 

I've had paper-cuts that the only cause I could think of happened hours ago.

 

I bet they were not enough to cause a point of BODY damage though

 

 

 

Actually' date=' I think the stilletto example is a good one... just not the assumption that it's required to hit weak spots in the armor as it's function. The idea should more be a stilletto with a strong enough blade that it can get through the armor (except that hardened against such things) despite it. I think that penetrating represents attacks that focus large amounts of effort in very small spaces.[/quote']

 

That is not true though: thin armour will not stop a stilletto, but if you keep on making it thicker, even if you do not 'harden' it, the blade will be stopped. It does not model reality, or more to the point, concept, well.

 

And it does not address the point about it not hurting enough i.e. the disproportionality between BODY and STUN.

[zornwil]

Re: Nnd

 

I bet they were not enough to cause a point of BODY damage though

 

 

 

 

 

That is not true though: thin armour will not stop a stilletto, but if you keep on making it thicker, even if you do not 'harden' it, the blade will be stopped. It does not model reality, or more to the point, concept, well.

 

And it does not address the point about it not hurting enough i.e. the disproportionality between BODY and STUN.

The question is not whether it's true in the real world but whether we want it to be true in the game world for fictional adventure purposes. That said, I understand you don't like it and I realize that your'e not the only one. I think it's a good choice. Shrug.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Nnd

 

This is not a criticism of how you do it in your game' date=' but I personally dislike NPCs having mechanics that PCs are not allowed to have, and avoided it in my games.[/quote']

Generally speaking, I would allow PC's to have access to AND. It's definitely one of those Danger/Stop Sign things that the GM has to examine carefully. I trust myself to use it wisely as GM. In the players case, however...

 

That being said, most players I've had understand how inefficient NND (and the similar Advantages AVLD, and my AND) are. So most of them would never want to buy AND on a power - after all they *do* have limited points to spend. As I said before, Armor Piercing only costs +1/2 and bypasses half of defences. NND is "twice as good" in that it bypasses all defenses, but you also lose BODY damage and Knockback, and some pre-defined defence makes certain targets completely immune. For twice the price, you get less than twice the benefit. And for AVLD, the thrice the price-to-benefit ratio is worse. And my house-rule AND is four times the price. Unless you're an NPC with unlimited points to spend or you're intended to be defeated, AND is not a wise purchase. The only thing AND has over a "double-power AP" is that it bypasses Hardened, but at the same time, you lose both BODY and Knockback.

 

I wonder how frequently you all use Hardened in your games. How common is it for PCs? For NPCs/villains? How common in Champions? How common in Fantasy Hero? Other genres? How common is multiple levels of Hardened?

 

In my games, it's fairly uncommon in Champions, and very rare in FH. I don't think I've ever made a PC that had even one level of Hardened defense.

[zornwil]

Re: Nnd

 

Generally speaking, I would allow PC's to have access to AND. It's definitely one of those Danger/Stop Sign things that the GM has to examine carefully. I trust myself to use it wisely as GM. In the players case, however...

 

That being said, most players I've had understand how inefficient NND (and the similar Advantages AVLD, and my AND) are. So most of them would never want to buy AND on a power - after all they *do* have limited points to spend. As I said before, Armor Piercing only costs +1/2 and bypasses half of defences. NND is "twice as good" in that it bypasses all defenses, but you also lose BODY damage and Knockback, and some pre-defined defence makes certain targets completely immune. For twice the price, you get less than twice the benefit. And for AVLD, the thrice the price-to-benefit ratio is worse. And my house-rule AND is four times the price. Unless you're an NPC with unlimited points to spend or you're intended to be defeated, AND is not a wise purchase. The only thing AND has over a "double-power AP" is that it bypasses Hardened, but at the same time, you lose both BODY and Knockback.

 

I wonder how frequently you all use Hardened in your games. How common is it for PCs? For NPCs/villains? How common in Champions? How common in Fantasy Hero? Other genres? How common is multiple levels of Hardened?

 

In my games, it's fairly uncommon in Champions, and very rare in FH. I don't think I've ever made a PC that had even one level of Hardened defense.

Hardened isn't really common, though it varies a lot. Some have it, some don't. Once in a while there'll be somebody with almost no hardened defenses. A couple PCs, IIRC, have some form of Hardened. It is certainyl more common than your campaigns. Knockback is pretty rare, largely as I simply don't care for it (it costs a little extra if you want "normal" KB). Using HERO, I most often run supers, once in a while heroic level modern (with or without Urban Fantasy elements).

 

PS - multiple levels have been rare to date, but will increase as we're entering higher and higher power ranges now, moving into a galactic champions sort of realm

 

PPS - makes more sense now, too, thanks for the explanation, I have some powers that PCs "can" buy but aren't economical and so they don't, also

[Sean Waters]

Re: Nnd

 

Remember Pulsar?

 

Odd chap, bit of a nut, never taken seriously, commando training and an energy MP, NND and EB.

 

My players never took him seriously.

 

So, change the costume and sfx to black/negative energy, ditch the EB, replacing it with an entangle, and suddenly he is a force to be reckoned with.

 

Weird, huh?

 

NND scares players, well it scares the ones without the defences, and very often the defences are reasonably obvious (I check if he has a force field: no? I'll use the NND) and villains rarely work alone, so an NND attack is not much of a disadvantage, really: they'll still have targets even if half the opposition is unaffected.

 

It is a braver move for PCs to take an NND as their only main attack, and it is a shame in a way that most PCs are built as individuals rather than team members. Must be good against everything, or at least not suck.

 

I probably had a point, but it escapes me now.

 

Oh, yes: economy, efficiency, and almost everything else beginning with 'e' - Grrr

[OddHat]

Re: Nnd

 

Oh, yes: economy, efficiency, and almost everything else beginning with 'e' - Grrr

 

Here, learn to love things beginning with E.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Nnd

 

Here, learn to love things beginning with E.

 

OMG:eek:

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Nnd

 

Remember Pulsar?

 

Odd chap, bit of a nut, never taken seriously, commando training and an energy MP, NND and EB.

 

My players never took him seriously.

 

So, change the costume and sfx to black/negative energy, ditch the EB, replacing it with an entangle, and suddenly he is a force to be reckoned with.

 

Weird, huh?

 

NND scares players, well it scares the ones without the defences, and very often the defences are reasonably obvious (I check if he has a force field: no? I'll use the NND) and villains rarely work alone, so an NND attack is not much of a disadvantage, really: they'll still have targets even if half the opposition is unaffected.

 

It is a braver move for PCs to take an NND as their only main attack, and it is a shame in a way that most PCs are built as individuals rather than team members. Must be good against everything, or at least not suck.

 

I probably had a point, but it escapes me now.

 

Oh, yes: economy, efficiency, and almost everything else beginning with 'e' - Grrr

 

Yeah, I remember Pulsar.

my character Blackjack accidentally killed him in our campaign.

Riddled the fellow with throwing knives.. I had no idea an ex commando would try and take over a nuclear aircraft carrier without wearing even middling armor.

Oops.

[OddHat]

Re: Nnd

 

OMG:eek:

 

Feel like doing the write ups?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Nnd

 

Feel like doing the write ups?

 

No.

 

 

 

Question: if you hit an entangled character with an NND, is the entangle considered a barrier or a personal defence? (we can assume that the entangle is not specifically the defence to the attack)

[ghost-angel]

Re: Nnd

 

No.

 

 

 

Question: if you hit an entangled character with an NND, is the entangle considered a barrier or a personal defence? (we can assume that the entangle is not specifically the defence to the attack)

 

Well, entangles can be used to make barriers, unless you place a limitation on them not to be able to.

 

. . . dang, hard call. I would say unless specifically used to create a barrier they are not one.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Nnd

 

Well, entangles can be used to make barriers, unless you place a limitation on them not to be able to.

 

. . . dang, hard call. I would say unless specifically used to create a barrier they are not one.

 

....which makes an entangle/NND MP a particularly synergetic combination...

 

I have to ponder that one

[OddHat]

Re: Nnd

 

....which makes an entangle/NND MP a particularly synergetic combination...

 

I have to ponder that one

 

The entangle automatically protects the Entangle Target unless purchased with the "Entangle and Character Both Take Damage" or "Takes No Damage From Attacks" options. Some NNDs may pass through anyway, depending on the SFX of the Entangle and NND (Ice Bonds that don't suffocate the character will not protect against Sleeping Gas).

[Sean Waters]

Re: Nnd

 

The entangle automatically protects the Entangle Target unless purchased with the "Entangle and Character Both Take Damage" or "Takes No Damage From Attacks" options. Some NNDs may pass through anyway' date=' depending on the SFX of the Entangle and NND (Ice Bonds that don't suffocate the character will not protect against Sleeping Gas).[/quote']

 

I seem to recall debating that meta point recently

 

My view (which I think concurs with Dust Raven's) is that it depends whether the entangle that coats you is a barrier or considered a personal defence: it the former I do not think that the NND would get through, although the defence from entangle acts more like personal defences i.e. they let stun through even if BODY of the entangle is not exceeded.

[OddHat]

Re: Nnd

 

I seem to recall debating that meta point recently

 

Yes.

 

IMO, the GM who allows an NND to be stopped by an inappropriate (in SFX terms) Entangle, whether it's a barrier or personal defense, is violating Common and Dramatic Sense. It's exactly the sort of call a GM is expected to make.

 

My view (which I think concurs with Dust Raven's) is that it depends whether the entangle that coats you is a barrier or considered a personal defence: it the former I do not think that the NND would get through, although the defence from entangle acts more like personal defences i.e. they let stun through even if BODY of the entangle is not exceeded.

 

There's something to be said for this point of view, but that still doesn't get the GM out of his responsibility to make sure that the interaction of SFX makes sense in the context of his game.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Nnd

 

Yes.

 

IMO, the GM who allows an NND to be stopped by an inappropriate (in SFX terms) Entangle, whether it's a barrier or personal defense, is violating Common and Dramatic Sense. It's exactly the sort of call a GM is expected to make.

 

 

 

There's something to be said for this point of view, but that still doesn't get the GM out of his responsibility to make sure that the interaction of SFX makes sense in the context of his game.

 

Well we agree that it ultimately the responsibiity of the GM, but that responsibility should be exercised at the character creation stage when vetting builds and building vets:

 

GM: You've got a gas attack: can that go through barriers, because the rules say it can't unless you build it right, like with indirect?

 

Player: Damn you, you excellent GM, and your Munchkin-Foiling Powers!