Nnd

[Sean Waters]

Just wondering where people stand on the 'defences to NND' thing.

 

It seems to me it is a bit genre dependent anyway - in superheroic games something like the knockout dart - NND defence being ANY resistant PD - is going to be practically useless - everyone and his (super)dog has some resistant defences. I know that you use the lower advantage level, but even so - it is pretty useless.

 

The reason I'm thinking about this is that I'm building a villain and I wanted to give him 'heat vision':

 

3d6 EB NND Does BODY Fully invisible effects: 60 points

 

Basically he stares at something and it bursts into flame. I want to be able to scare the PCs a bit with the prospect of taking BODY damage, although he's never going to manage enough hits to actually kill one of them. I was considering using a RKA instead but this is a little tamer - and will mean that I am unlikely to have to fudge the dice

 

Thing that concerned me was the defence for the NND - I was going to make it LS:Heat, but that seems a bit thin, looking at the examples, but 'resistant ED' would make everyone invulnerable to him, so that goes too far the other way. Now I know as the GM I can do what I please, but it would be nice to get people's feedback ont he right place to pitch this one to do it 'properly'.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Nnd

 

Just wondering where people stand on the 'defences to NND' thing.

 

It seems to me it is a bit genre dependent anyway - in superheroic games something like the knockout dart - NND defence being ANY resistant PD - is going to be practically useless - everyone and his (super)dog has some resistant defences. I know that you use the lower advantage level, but even so - it is pretty useless.

 

The reason I'm thinking about this is that I'm building a villain and I wanted to give him 'heat vision':

 

3d6 EB NND Does BODY Fully invisible effects: 60 points

 

Basically he stares at something and it bursts into flame. I want to be able to scare the PCs a bit with the prospect of taking BODY damage, although he's never going to manage enough hits to actually kill one of them. I was considering using a RKA instead but this is a little tamer - and will mean that I am unlikely to have to fudge the dice

 

Thing that concerned me was the defence for the NND - I was going to make it LS:Heat, but that seems a bit thin, looking at the examples, but 'resistant ED' would make everyone invulnerable to him, so that goes too far the other way. Now I know as the GM I can do what I please, but it would be nice to get people's feedback ont he right place to pitch this one to do it 'properly'.

 

 

Well I think the build still needs work. Definitely not accurate enough

 

Assuming a defense of LS:Heat it WILL affect someone behind a Force Wall but will NOT affect someone behind a sliding glass door!

[ghost-angel]

Re: Nnd

 

I would make it two defenses, LS: Heat is a good one, assuming the SFX are something like IR or UV radiation burns. And you can also add on force field (the SFX not the Power), the field may distort the wavelengths enought render then mostly harmless, by scattering the heat wave.

 

Another thing that comes to mind is lack of exposed skin, but that could be stretching it for your intended SFX.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Nnd

 

Well I think the build still needs work. Definitely not accurate enough

 

Assuming a defense of LS:Heat it WILL affect someone behind a Force Wall but will NOT affect someone behind a sliding glass door!

 

Pretty sure that force walls stop NNDs, like any other barrier. Given that it does BODY damage, the sliding glass door wouldn't last that long anyway.

 

This does raise and interesting point though - and it may well have been what you meant (I am a bit slow): if you hit a FW with a 'does BODY' NND, presumably it does go down, unless it has the appropriate defences. Might have to do something about that....

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Nnd

 

Pretty sure that force walls stop NNDs, like any other barrier. Given that it does BODY damage, the sliding glass door wouldn't last that long anyway.

 

This does raise and interesting point though - and it may well have been what you meant (I am a bit slow): if you hit a FW with a 'does BODY' NND, presumably it does go down, unless it has the appropriate defences. Might have to do something about that....

 

My point was that the sfx of heat vision should have zero affect on glass which typically has an extremely high melting point and allows heat from sunlight to pass right through (ever used a magnifying glass to start a fire before?). Now I am in favor of letting 'a little sfx' bend the rules here but I seem to recall that you were on the other side of the fence on this (or am I thinking Hugh?)

 

I believe we had this discusion before regarding NND's and Force Walls and it was determined that they do NOT stop the NND unless it contains an applicable defense (like LS: need to breath vs. a NND gas attack).

[Sean Waters]

Re: Nnd

 

I would make it two defenses, LS: Heat is a good one, assuming the SFX are something like IR or UV radiation burns. And you can also add on force field (the SFX not the Power), the field may distort the wavelengths enought render then mostly harmless, by scattering the heat wave.

 

Another thing that comes to mind is lack of exposed skin, but that could be stretching it for your intended SFX.

 

I like the force field idea, and it brings me to another point about NND: sfx really should be important here - you can build a 'force field' (the sfx) using armour (the power) so thepoint you make is very important - rarely will a power be an appropriate defence (unless it is something like LS) - much more oftern the sfx will be the important part.

 

The SFX of the heat vision are either IR or possibly microwave radiation. Haven't decided yet.

 

The defence tot he latter SHOULD be that the object doesn't contain any waters, but you can't have 'negative definers' for NND.

[Vestnik]

Re: Nnd

 

3d6 EB NND Does BODY Fully invisible effects: 60 points

 

Basically he stares at something and it bursts into flame. I want to be able to scare the PCs a bit with the prospect of taking BODY damage, although he's never going to manage enough hits to actually kill one of them. I was considering using a RKA instead but this is a little tamer - and will mean that I am unlikely to have to fudge the dice

 

I'm building a character with a very similar power. My concern is -- shouldn't thios power be built Indirect, given that it can't be missile deflected?

[CraterMaker]

Re: Nnd

 

I'd make the defense having Absorbtion (Energy) and having powers with the special effect Water/Ice...

 

Some characters with Water or Ice powers are going to buy susceptibilities to heat/fire attacks, so even if the NND does no damage to them, they'll still take a hurtin from the susceptibility...

 

-CraterMaker

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Nnd

 

The accurate fix in this case would be to add Indirect as a Naked Advantage and then take a limitation something like "only to behave as normal Light (can pass through glass, reflected by mirrors, etc...)"

 

However, it is my opinion that variations of this type of Indirect (a Naked +1/4 reduced by Limitations) is already implied and should be officially considered part of the NND advantage depending on the sfx.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Nnd

 

I'm building a character with a very similar power. My concern is -- shouldn't thios power be built Indirect' date=' given that it can't be missile deflected?[/quote']

 

Why can't it be missle deflected? as built, the primary reason would be due to not being able to percieve the attack.

 

see my previous post..

[OddHat]

Re: Nnd

 

I'd do it SFX vs SFX.

 

What exactly is the SFX of the NND?

 

What SFX would reasonably protect against that?

 

Like Desolidification, NND is one of those cases where mechanics and SFX must be spelled out if the in-game effects are going to make any sense.

[Vestnik]

Re: Nnd

 

Why can't it be missle deflected? as built, the primary reason would be due to not being able to percieve the attack.

 

see my previous post..

 

Thanks.

 

I see my confusion -- Sean's SFX is, I guess, beams coming out of the eyes, setting the target aflame. I was thinking of a scenario in which a character caused objects to spontaneously combust by looking at them, with no intermediary "carrier" (beams from eyes, in this case).

[Sean Waters]

Re: Nnd

 

God Bless the Internet

 

http://boston.bizjournals.com/boston/stories/2004/11/29/daily30.html

 

Not quite what I was after, but, blimey: we are really going to have to work hard to come up with stuff that doesn't exist, aren't we

[Sean Waters]

Re: Nnd

 

Thanks.

 

I see my confusion -- Sean's SFX is, I guess, beams coming out of the eyes, setting the target aflame. I was thinking of a scenario in which a character caused objects to spontaneously combust by looking at them, with no intermediary "carrier" (beams from eyes, in this case).

 

You could have the sfx of spontaneous combustion work in any number of ways. In 'reality' you can transmit energy by radiation, convection or conduction. You are not so limited in Hero, of course. You could open a microgate to the Plane Of Fire inside your target. This would almost certainly be a NND, but what could you possibly consider as the 'defence'? EDM powers? LS (Heat) - obviously - even then it would depend - you might wear a suit that makes you heat resistant but you are still cookable flesh inside. Even teh EDM powers appraoch is not particularly logical - being able to travel to somewhere else does not necessarily give you the ability to interfere with someone else's ability to do so. If you see what i mean

 

The problem with a purely sfx-sfx approach as OddHat advocates is that you can think of attacks that 'logically' would be almost impossible to defend against, and that being the case, you are getting a lot of utility out of the advantage that someone else wouldn't be.

 

I'm not criticising the sfx-sfx approach - but it is going to reward the sneaky-minded who pick a very unusual method of damage delivery. The thing is if you just disallow that, you are cutting off what could be a very creative player, as opposed to a munchkin. Perhaps we need another level of NND: +1 1/2 or even +2 - Very Rare Defence.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Nnd

 

My point was that the sfx of heat vision should have zero affect on glass which typically has an extremely high melting point and allows heat from sunlight to pass right through (ever used a magnifying glass to start a fire before?). Now I am in favor of letting 'a little sfx' bend the rules here but I seem to recall that you were on the other side of the fence on this (or am I thinking Hugh?)

 

I believe we had this discusion before regarding NND's and Force Walls and it was determined that they do NOT stop the NND unless it contains an applicable defense (like LS: need to breath vs. a NND gas attack).

 

I cracked a glass jug the other day with some hot soup. Sunlight on glass tends to heat it slowly and evenly, a heat beam would not necessarily melt it but would almost certainly cause it to shatter from point heating causing expansion in a small area. Mind you there is glass and there is glass. Depending on what it is treated with it can let IR through, absorb it or reflect it, just like it can with other light frequencies. I am not sure I know enough physics to play this game any more.....

 

My recollection of the recent discussion was that Force Walls were treated exactly the same way as any other barrier - i.e. they did stop NNDs. Mind you I only tend to hear what I want to so I could be off on that one.

 

Nonetheless I do take your point about the indirect qualities of certain attacks, and I would suggest that you could build them with indirect, but, as you properly point out, the cost would be that of a 'limited +1/4', and so I'd probably be willing to do that as sfx: you can bounce your attack accurately using a mirror - but someone could potentially reflect it back at you the same way...

[OddHat]

Re: Nnd

 

The problem with a purely sfx-sfx approach as OddHat advocates is that you can think of attacks that 'logically' would be almost impossible to defend against, and that being the case, you are getting a lot of utility out of the advantage that someone else wouldn't be.

 

At which point the GM exercises his judgment and says "no". Or, if he's in a forgiving mood, he considers the possibility that the effect isn't properly represented as an NND, and decides if it could work built some other way (say as an Indirect Double Penetrating attack or similar).

 

I don't object particularly to going to an NND +2 advantage for attacks with very rare defenses, but I'd be more likely to just outlaw such an effect if it didn't fit in a campaign.

[CraterMaker]

Re: Nnd

 

Players trying to pull fast ones on the GM with character designs should be smacked upside the head with a halibut. A big one.

 

But it's almost impossible for a player character to abuse the SFX defence of NND - I mean, if he decides the defence for his NND is wearing paisley, guess who his new recurring villain is? That's right, it's the Fashon Fascist with his paisley trench coat..

 

-CraterMaker

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Nnd

 

Players trying to pull fast ones on the GM with character designs should be smacked upside the head with a halibut. A big one.

 

Like this?

[schir1964]

Re: Nnd

 

Thing that concerned me was the defence for the NND - I was going to make it LS:Heat' date=' but that seems a bit thin, looking at the examples, but 'resistant ED' would make everyone invulnerable to him, so that goes too far the other way. Now I know as the GM I can do what I please, but it would be nice to get people's feedback ont he right place to pitch this one to do it 'properly'.[/quote']

Sean, you are going to shoot me. (8^D)

 

AVLD vs Power Defense (8^D)

 

- Christopher Mullins

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Nnd

 

I don't object particularly to going to an NND +2 advantage for attacks with very rare defenses' date=' but I'd be more likely to just outlaw such an effect if it didn't fit in a campaign.[/quote']

On a very few occasions, I've used an advantage, AND - Absolutely No Defense +2. Only for NPCs where I want to say, "Whatever it is, none of the players have the defense for it, ever." And I've never added "Does BODY" to it. It may seem harsh, but it's a logical progression from NND to AVLD to AND. And it's very inefficient: Armor Piercing ignores half of your defenses for only +1/2, but to ignore the other half costs an additional +1 1/2.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Nnd

 

Just wondering where people stand on the 'defences to NND' thing.

 

It seems to me it is a bit genre dependent anyway - in superheroic games something like the knockout dart - NND defence being ANY resistant PD - is going to be practically useless - everyone and his (super)dog has some resistant defences. I know that you use the lower advantage level, but even so - it is pretty useless.

 

The reason I'm thinking about this is that I'm building a villain and I wanted to give him 'heat vision':

 

3d6 EB NND Does BODY Fully invisible effects: 60 points

 

Basically he stares at something and it bursts into flame. I want to be able to scare the PCs a bit with the prospect of taking BODY damage, although he's never going to manage enough hits to actually kill one of them. I was considering using a RKA instead but this is a little tamer - and will mean that I am unlikely to have to fudge the dice

 

Thing that concerned me was the defence for the NND - I was going to make it LS:Heat, but that seems a bit thin, looking at the examples, but 'resistant ED' would make everyone invulnerable to him, so that goes too far the other way. Now I know as the GM I can do what I please, but it would be nice to get people's feedback ont he right place to pitch this one to do it 'properly'.

 

While I submit there's a level of genre dependency for this, I think that the build itself: 1d6 RKA, NND (LS: Extreme Heat), Does BODY, Invisible Power Effects, works just fine. I would even go so far as to reduce IPE, and make it partial; give the 'heat mirage' effect to it and thus he 'stares' and things 'burst into flame.' Okay. You may want to slap "Continuous" on there as well, so he can 'keep staring' at whatever it is until his LOS is broken - but then the interposing object runs the risk of getting flamed. Especially if part of the design is that he can light almost ANYTHING on fire.

 

Concrete. Costumes. Carrots. Boy Bands. You name it, he ignites it. Insofar as the resistance to the NND... well, let's be fair. Extreme Heat is totally reasonable. "Being a silicone based lifeform" is NOT fair - but totally within the confines of the rules. So the Hero, Hotfoot, a flame-based speedster, has LS: Extreme Heat - no problem. His counterpart, Invicigirl, simply has stupid fast regen - but no resistance. She takes her some BODY damage and immediately starts to heal it. He takes none.

 

Meanwhile, Capt. Force-Wall, as was pointed out earlier, sees that Mr. Bad's powers don't affect his allies and puts up his usual defenses.

 

And gets fried like so much calimari.

 

Now THAT'S comedic gold.

[Lucius]

Re: Nnd

 

God Bless the Internet

 

http://boston.bizjournals.com/boston/stories/2004/11/29/daily30.html

 

Not quite what I was after, but, blimey: we are really going to have to work hard to come up with stuff that doesn't exist, aren't we

 

You mean, this is news to you?

 

Welcome to our nightmare.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Sometimes I envy the palindromedary

[Dust Raven]

Re: Nnd

 

The reason I'm thinking about this is that I'm building a villain and I wanted to give him 'heat vision':

 

3d6 EB NND Does BODY Fully invisible effects: 60 points

 

When writing up Clark from Smallville, it wrote up his heat vision thus:

 

Heat Vision: RKA 2d6, Armor Piercing, IPE (sight & hearing), 1/2 END (75 Active Points); Concentration 0 DCV. Real Cost 50.

 

Of course, if you really want the NND Does Body thing, I'd recomend LS: Heat or any defense bought specifically versus heat damage. No need to say FF or rED or any other mechanic; the defense of an NND does not need to be a game mechanic - it can be counter SFX.

[tesuji]

Re: Nnd

 

 

It seems to me it is a bit genre dependent anyway - in superheroic games something like the knockout dart - NND defence being ANY resistant PD - is going to be practically useless - everyone and his (super)dog has some resistant defences.

A niggle i have with this statement is that its not at all a trope of the superhero genre. There are characters aplenty in superhero comics and stories who don't have resistant defenses.

 

Its a staple of HERO system superheroes that everyone and his little dog too needs resistant defenses. Combat luck is now around so even those who "dont have resistant defenses" can still benefit from the mechanical advantages of having them.

 

The reason I'm thinking about this is that I'm building a villain and I wanted to give him 'heat vision':

 

3d6 EB NND Does BODY Fully invisible effects: 60 points

 

Basically he stares at something and it bursts into flame. I want to be able to scare the PCs a bit with the prospect of taking BODY damage, although he's never going to manage enough hits to actually kill one of them. I was considering using a RKA instead but this is a little tamer - and will mean that I am unlikely to have to fudge the dice

I would resevre NND does body, an attack which completely bypasses all forms of energy defense, for something more exotic. You can still "scare" them with something like a "meson blast" and not have the obvious disconnect of things like "my force field stopps an IR laser and flames but doesn't do crap against "heat vision"?"

 

a rule of thmub is "make special cases special".

 

Thing that concerned me was the defence for the NND - I was going to make it LS:Heat, but that seems a bit thin, looking at the examples, but 'resistant ED' would make everyone invulnerable to him, so that goes too far the other way. Now I know as the GM I can do what I please, but it would be nice to get people's feedback ont he right place to pitch this one to do it 'properly'.

 

Easy to answer from the GM's perspective.

 

Of your X number of PCs (and frequent NPC teammates if any), how many have "LS: heat"?

 

More than half = maybe a little weak as a power. too broad a defense

Less than half but more than a quarter = about right IMO

Less than a quarter = not good, too powerful.

 

After all, the "sample size" of targets you are dealing with is very small, your PCs. This assumes you are wanting a systemic approach, as opposed to an ad hoc basis and aren't comfortable allowing "heat vision nnd only stopped by LS heat" for 2d6 EB but not for 6d6 EB becausae "at 2d6 its manageable".

[Sean Waters]

Re: Nnd

 

Sean, you are going to shoot me. (8^D)

 

AVLD vs Power Defense (8^D)

 

- Christopher Mullins

 

I might shoot you with a knockout dart

 

I did consider this one, to be honest, but, as has been discussed elsewhere, power defence is a bit of an odd one in itself and I can't think of a logical reason why it (or any other exotic defence) should protect from heat damage.