AOE Hand Attack

[Constantine]

I don't have a book in front of me, and I was just reading the Indirect attack and blocking question posed to Steve, and I had a thought. Can Area of Effect Hand Attack be blocked if you are not adjacent to the attacking character, but are in the area of effect? And, if it is possible, would said block spoil the entire attack, or would just the blocker be unaffected?

[Sean Waters]

Re: AOE Hand Attack

 

AoE, adjacent or otherwise, cannot be blocked/MDd unless it is bought 'can be blocked' and if it is bought 'can be blocked/MDd' then you would have to look at the overall build and sfx to determine if the attack doesn't go off, goes off somewhere else or just doesn't work against that one character but does against all others in the area.

 

Pretty useless, wishy-washy answer, for which I apologise.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: AOE Hand Attack

 

I believe that UMA, UB and USPS suggest that AOE HTH attacks be considered un-Dodgable* but still Blockable. Indirect HTH attacks are suggested to be un-Blockable but still Dodgable.

 

*Dive for Cover and Flying Dodge would still work since they involve movement.

[Sean Waters]

Re: AOE Hand Attack

 

I believe that UMA, UB and USPS suggest that AOE HTH attacks be considered un-Dodgable* but still Blockable. Indirect HTH attacks are suggested to be un-Blockable but still Dodgable.

 

*Dive for Cover and Flying Dodge would still work since they involve movement.

 

You are probably absolutely right. Sigh.

 

Now I'm not trying to be difficult, but can someone explain the logic of that? I get the dodging bit just not the blocking bit :

 

Now are we talking AOE HTH attacks (i.e. all non-ranged attacks) or AOE HTH Attack attacks (i.e. the specific power)? Not sure why that should make a difference, but I suppose it might.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: AOE Hand Attack

 

You are probably absolutely right. Sigh.

 

Now I'm not trying to be difficult, but can someone explain the logic of that? I get the dodging bit just not the blocking bit :

 

Now are we talking AOE HTH attacks (i.e. all non-ranged attacks) or AOE HTH Attack attacks (i.e. the specific power)? Not sure why that should make a difference, but I suppose it might.

 

The blocking bit is because the 2 most common sfx's for of an AOE HTH attack (lowercase on purpose) involve either a 'super-fast' sweep or 'super-large' fist. Regarding the first, the sweep rules already have a mechanic that stops all further attacks as soon as one misses so it stands to reason that Block should come into play. And regarding the second, why should a super-large fist be any harder to block than a super-dense one?

[Sean Waters]

Re: AOE Hand Attack

 

The blocking bit is because the 2 most common sfx's for of an AOE HTH attack (lowercase on purpose) involve either a 'super-fast' sweep or 'super-large' fist. Regarding the first' date=' the sweep rules already have a mechanic that stops all further attacks as soon as one misses so it stands to reason that Block should come into play. And regarding the second, why should a super-large fist be any harder to block than a super-dense one?[/quote']

 

Well I accept that, but by that logic I'd just build them as 'AoE with a 'can be blocked' -1/4 limitation (like 'can be MDd', p114). It seems to make more sense to me to build the power you want than skew the whole thing to make it line up with common sfx.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: AOE Hand Attack

 

Well I accept that' date=' but by that logic I'd just build them as 'AoE with a 'can be blocked' -1/4 limitation (like 'can be MDd', p114). It seems to make more sense to me to build the power you want than skew the whole thing to make it line up with common sfx.[/quote']

 

 

Well, you're always going to have problem if the goal is to have 'perfect' mechanics when mixing an advantage designed for ranged attacks with HTH attacks*

 

*which are themselves similar but still distinct from normally ranged attacks with the 'no range' limitation.

 

One can argue that Range has no sfx but HTH almost demands a sfx of sorts to make sense.

[Constantine]

Re: AOE Hand Attack

 

The specific power I was talking about was Hand Attack, or whatever they are calling it these days. And thanks for your responses. Food for thought.

Merry Christmas & Happy Holidays, all!

[Hyper-Man]

Re: AOE Hand Attack

 

Well I accept that' date=' but by that logic I'd just build them as 'AoE with a 'can be blocked' -1/4 limitation (like 'can be MDd', p114). It seems to make more sense to me to build the power you want than skew the whole thing to make it line up with common sfx.[/quote']

 

Well, just because an AOE HTH attack CAN be Blocked doesn't automatically mean the target will know this or have an effective means to do so. AOE 1 Hex (Accurate) is about the closest thing in the system to a sure hit barring a Block or Dive for Cover since it is always going to be vs. a DCV of 3.

 

Also, taking a 1/4 limitation is only fair if applied only to the AOE 1 hex (accurate) advantage (normally a +1/2) which requires the use of a naked modifyer and more complex math than most GM's and Players are are really concerned with.

[Dust Raven]

Re: AOE Hand Attack

 

The idea that an AoE attack can be Blocked is one I've never agreed with. At least by default. As per Missile Deflecting AoE attacks, it depends on the SFX, but by default, no, you cannot Block a fist the size of the hex your standing in. In fact, it's how I've bought "unblockable fists" in the past. AoE 1 Hex Accurate.

 

As far as Blocking an AoE HTH attack (HA or otherwise), that is blockable (either because it's bought with a Limitation or the GM just says it is), I'd say it depends heavily on the SFX of the attack and the block. A giant hand slap that covers seven hexes might be stopped by a single successful Block and no one gets hit, but a Block against a multitude of superfast punches that fill the area might only protect the character Blocking and no others.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: AOE Hand Attack

 

The idea that an AoE attack can be Blocked is one I've never agreed with. At least by default. As per Missile Deflecting AoE attacks, it depends on the SFX, but by default, no, you cannot Block a fist the size of the hex your standing in. In fact, it's how I've bought "unblockable fists" in the past. AoE 1 Hex Accurate.

 

As far as Blocking an AoE HTH attack (HA or otherwise), that is blockable (either because it's bought with a Limitation or the GM just says it is), I'd say it depends heavily on the SFX of the attack and the block. A giant hand slap that covers seven hexes might be stopped by a single successful Block and no one gets hit, but a Block against a multitude of superfast punches that fill the area might only protect the character Blocking and no others.

 

Well, by your own admission, you are essentially describing the house rules for your game which is fine.

 

With regards to the 'multitude of superfast punches' I am curious what explains the Blocker's gain in the next phase's relative DEX order vs. this attacker IF the Block doesn't stop the entire attack? It's always been my understanding that the Block regardless of sfx, when successful, breaks the attacker's rhythm. Skipping this effect on other targets in the same hex and phase of the Block makes no sense.

[Sean Waters]

Re: AOE Hand Attack

 

Well' date=' just because an AOE HTH attack CAN be Blocked doesn't automatically mean the target will know this or have an effective means to do so. AOE 1 Hex (Accurate) is about the closest thing in the system to a [u']sure hit[/u] barring a Block or Dive for Cover since it is always going to be vs. a DCV of 3.

 

You can get slightly closer: one hex AoE, extra hex area (x2) (or inmost cases, radius AoE), (accurate) (with no range if a ranged attack) will always land a hit on a target within one hex of a normal sized character barring, as you say, diving for cover or whatever that martial equivalent is.

 

Also' date=' taking a 1/4 limitation is only fair if applied only to the AOE 1 hex (accurate) advantage (normally a +1/2) which requires the use of a naked modifyer and more complex math than most GM's and Players are are really concerned with.[/quote']

 

I agree....but....then I don't The equivalent limitation for ranged attacks - 'Can be missile deflected' does not require it only to be applied to the advantage as there are a number of attacks that cannot normally be deflected - including mental powers and entangles - usually ranged, but if not then they could not be MD'd, you'd have to block them. I can certainly see the logic of applying the lmitation only to the advantage points, but I'm not sure that would be a consistent approach. It would mean that you coudl buy an unblockable punch as 'one hex AoE, nonselective, can be blocked' for even points (although a higher AP cost). Now arguably there should be a diffeerence as block is ubiquitous whereas MD is not. I can't make my mind up.

[Dust Raven]

Re: AOE Hand Attack

 

Well, by your own admission, you are essentially describing the house rules for your game which is fine.

 

With regards to the 'multitude of superfast punches' I am curious what explains the Blocker's gain in the next phase's relative DEX order vs. this attacker IF the Block doesn't stop the entire attack? It's always been my understanding that the Block regardless of sfx, when successful, breaks the attacker's rhythm. Skipping this effect on other targets in the same hex and phase of the Block makes no sense.

My house rule or not, my point was if you can Block the HTH attack, it doesn't necessarily mean you block for everybody. As you point out, there is still the issue of who goes first if the Blocker and the attacker act next in the same Segment. I'd say if the Block was successful, the Blocker goes first as usual, but just the Blocker, not anyone else in the area. If the GM rules that each target in the area had to Block separately, and more than one was successful, they each go before the attacker, in order of their DEXs.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: AOE Hand Attack

 

I agree that regular AE attacks should not be blockable (nor Explosions). But with Selective Target or Non-Selective Target, they can be.

 

As a house rule, I also allow "Automatic Selective Target" for an additional +1/2, which hits only the targets you want in the area, but doesn't require additional attack rolls.

 

From a SFX perspective, the "Flurry of Fists" ought to be blockable, and therefore I wouldn't build it as a plain AE, but might use Selective.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: AOE Hand Attack

 

Another variation would be to use AOE 1 Hex Accurate and combine it with the Sweep maneuver. It effectively gives a character with a 9 OCV an 11- to hit vs. 4 targets.

 

Wan't it to be unblockable too? Add Indirect at the (+1/4) level.

[Sean Waters]

Re: AOE Hand Attack

 

Another variation would be to use AOE 1 Hex Accurate and combine it with the Sweep maneuver. It effectively gives a character with a 9 OCV an 11- to hit vs. 4 targets.

 

Wan't it to be unblockable too? Add Indirect at the (+1/4) level.

 

Although I would not call it 'indirect' I'd certainly allow a +1/4 advantage to make an atatck unblockable if it was not already.

[Dust Raven]

Re: AOE Hand Attack

 

Can’t block this

Can’t block this

Can’t block this (oh-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh)

Can’t block this (oh-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh)

Can’t block this

 

My, my, my, my big fist hits you so hard

Gotta keep you on your guard

I hit you to your dismay

Indirect effect on my HA

Feels good when I know you're down

An AoE attack is comin’ around

And you’re head got clocked

Cuz this is a punch uh you can't block

 

(Oh-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh)

I told you hero

Can't block this

(Oh-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh)

Yeah, that's how we fightin' and ya know,

Can't block this

(Oh-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh)

Look in my eyes man, can't block this

(Oh-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh)

[Sean Waters]

Re: AOE Hand Attack

 

Can’t block this

Can’t block this

Can’t block this (oh-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh)

Can’t block this (oh-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh)

Can’t block this

 

My, my, my, my big fist hits you so hard

Gotta keep you on your guard

I hit you to your dismay

Indirect effect on my HA

Feels good when I know you're down

An AoE attack is comin’ around

And you’re head got clocked

Cuz this is a punch uh you can't block

 

(Oh-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh)

I told you hero

Can't block this

(Oh-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh)

Yeah, that's how we fightin' and ya know,

Can't block this

(Oh-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh)

Look in my eyes man, can't block this

(Oh-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh)

 

 

Remind me to rep you when I can

[Dust Raven]

Re: AOE Hand Attack

 

Remind me to rep you when I can

 

[what did you do ray?]

 

It just.... popped in there...

 

[/what did you do ray?]