Sliding bars measuring each spell's "energy"

[Robyn]

I thought about titling this "Spell bars", then realized my own first thought would be "A candy bar you can eat that grants spellcasting ability?"

 

I'm trying to find a balance between "free" healing (and other magical effects) and spells that are severely limited in when (and to what degree) they may take place.

 

I like the narrative effect of heroes who can push themselves if they want, but have a limited reserve of energy, and only recover it so quickly. The trick is, I want to keep track of each type of spell that they can cast, separately. So, if they've been casting fireballs and forcewalls all day long, they're about exhausted on that front, but still have a full "battery" when it comes to healing.

 

I'm currently looking at END Reserves - lots, and lots, of END Reserves - for these spells, but some sort of Boostable charge also seems like a possibility.

 

Thoughts?

[Curufea]

Re: Sliding bars measuring each spell's "energy"

 

Do like spells use the same energy to power them?

Would it be worthwhile putting all fire based spells in a multipower, and having that multipower use charges?

 

If you put charges on each spell, rather than for each group, it would be quite fiddley to work out costing to increase the charges with XP - you'd have to do it for each spell individually.

[Frenchman]

Re: Sliding bars measuring each spell's "energy"

 

If you want to have a video-game-esque Mana Bar which allows spells to be more powerful when the caster has more mana available, I can think of two ways right now (not that these are the only two ways, by far):

Each wizard has an END reserve to cast spells from, and it has no more than, say, 1.5 to 2 times the amount of END in it that the casters most powerful spell uses. Preferably with a high recovery (Say 1/2 or more each turn). Casters would be forced to ration their spells in combat, decide whether they want to toss several small fire bolts at a few enemies or one big one at a single foe - but out of combat they could use magic at full power as long as they don't cast several spells in a row.

If you want the amount of Mana (or end or whatever) a wizard has to affect how powerful their spells are without affecting the cost, you could build spells in pieces. Such as firebolt built like: 2d6 EB, +2d6 EB (Only when at 1/4 Mana or more), +2d6 EB (Only when at 1/2 MANA or more), +2d6 EB (Only when at 3/4 MANA or more), +2d6 EB (Only when at Full MANA). Then the caster has a 10d6 firebolt when he first enters combat, but his next firebolt or two is only 8d6. I would reccommend that you make it so that the spells cost the same amount of END/Mana regardless of their power level (by adding increased END/Reduced END where appropriate) for two reasons: Easier to keep track of, and so that the characters first spells don't drain their power so quickly while their last dregs of END are almost impossible to use up.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Sliding bars measuring each spell's "energy"

 

If you want to have a video-game-esque Mana Bar which allows spells to be more powerful when the caster has more mana available, I can think of two ways right now (not that these are the only two ways, by far):

Each wizard has an END reserve to cast spells from, and it has no more than, say, 1.5 to 2 times the amount of END in it that the casters most powerful spell uses. Preferably with a high recovery (Say 1/2 or more each turn). Casters would be forced to ration their spells in combat, decide whether they want to toss several small fire bolts at a few enemies or one big one at a single foe - but out of combat they could use magic at full power as long as they don't cast several spells in a row.

If you want the amount of Mana (or end or whatever) a wizard has to affect how powerful their spells are without affecting the cost, you could build spells in pieces. Such as firebolt built like: 2d6 EB, +2d6 EB (Only when at 1/4 Mana or more), +2d6 EB (Only when at 1/2 MANA or more), +2d6 EB (Only when at 3/4 MANA or more), +2d6 EB (Only when at Full MANA). Then the caster has a 10d6 firebolt when he first enters combat, but his next firebolt or two is only 8d6. I would reccommend that you make it so that the spells cost the same amount of END/Mana regardless of their power level (by adding increased END/Reduced END where appropriate) for two reasons: Easier to keep track of, and so that the characters first spells don't drain their power so quickly while their last dregs of END are almost impossible to use up.

 

Killer Shrike also came up with a good new framework for building this kind of effect. Works great for a lot of video-game style effects.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Sliding bars measuring each spell's "energy"

 

Threshold Framework

[Robyn]

Re: Sliding bars measuring each spell's "energy"

 

Do like spells use the same energy to power them?

 

I haven't decided yet. I know there will be a lot of different types, but depending on how granular I make the spell system by the time I finish reworking it, there may or may not be minor variants that qualify as different spells but all qualify as the same type.

 

Would it be worthwhile putting all fire based spells in a multipower' date=' and having that multipower use charges?[/quote']

 

Almost certainly not; there will be enough different types that multipowers would not singlehandedly model the system, and that means the multipowers would just be an extra mechanic used at the extremely high levels of granularity.

 

If you want to have a video-game-esque Mana Bar which allows spells to be more powerful when the caster has more mana available' date='[/quote']

 

Both of your implementations includes pieces of what I'm contemplating, but each drag their respective pieces off in odd directions.

 

Endurance Reserve, 10 points:
-01- -02- -03- -04- -05- -06- -07- -08- -09- -10-
1pt recovers every few hours

Healing spell, 1d6/1pt; minimum 1d6, maximum 10d6

[color=#9932cc]Examples when END Reserve is full:[/color]

[color=#9932cc]3d6 Healing spell;[/color]
[color=#9932cc]-01- -02- -03- -04- -05- -06- -07-[/color]

[color=#9932cc]8d6 Healing spell;[/color]
[color=#9932cc]-01- -02-[/color]

 

I hope that clears things up.

[Black Rose]

Re: Sliding bars measuring each spell's "energy"

 

I think you'd want to go with something like individual END Reserves for each spell (or possibly spell grouping, whatever). For ease of tracking, I'd recommend using those glass baubles they have at craft stores (or Wal-Mart -- you can buy darn near anything there!).

 

An odd - and probably irritatingly difficult to track - idea occurs to me; base REC for certain types of spells on how often you've used them. This works out so that, if you're sparing with certain spells, you can cast them again and again. But if you fire off a number of them in quick succession, you'll be unable to use the spell until you "recover". Sort of like redlining your heat sink in some mecha combat games (I'm looking at you, Armored Core) means you can't do much of anything until you're topped off.

 

Anyway, this is a cool idea, and I look forward to seeing what you (and others) do with it.

[Robyn]

Re: Sliding bars measuring each spell's "energy"

 

For ease of tracking' date=' I'd recommend using those glass baubles they have at craft stores (or Wal-Mart -- you can buy darn near anything there!).[/quote']

 

Great minds think alike? I think I've encountered that idea on one or two occasions

[Gunrunner]

Re: Sliding bars measuring each spell's "energy"

 

Easy solution:

 

Each spell has Side Effect: 3d6 Drain on individual power; always occurs; return rate of 5 per (however long you want the recovery time) (-1)

 

This way, each time you cast a spell, that spell loses about 10 active points of power until it becomes "burnt out" from too much use.

 

Of course, this may require some book-keeping unless you apply the standard effects rule for the drain, making it an even 10 active point Drain for every use.

 

Or even easier, give each spell a limited number of charges. END reserves would be unnecessary with this approach, unless you apply an extra -1/2 to the Charges limitation to account for the fact that casting still costs END.

[Robyn]

Re: Sliding bars measuring each spell's "energy"

 

each time you cast a spell' date=' that spell loses about 10 active points of power[/quote']

 

Any options for Draining more than 3d6 at a time?

 

Think of it this way: you have a magical "framework" for the spell, and the only limit on how much energy you can channel through it (determining the strength of the spell) is a practical "Well, how much energy do I have?" one. However much energy you spend making the spell stronger, you then lose it, meaning it is unavailable to channel through future spells (until you recover some or all of it).

 

Or even easier' date=' give each spell a limited number of charges.[/quote']

 

Limiting the number of uses for each spell isn't all I'm after; what if, instead of ten 1d6 Healings, my desire is to cast a single 10d6 Healing?

 

There is a form of Charges which permits combining multiple charges for greater effect (it's called Boostable), the problem is its automatically acquired Burnout roll.

[Gunrunner]

Re: Sliding bars measuring each spell's "energy"

 

Ah, I see. I just kinda skimmed the whole thread after the first post, so I'll have to think about that one.

[Frenchman]

Re: Sliding bars measuring each spell's "energy"

 

There is a form of Charges which permits combining multiple charges for greater effect (it's called Boostable), the problem is its automatically acquired Burnout roll.

 

We tend to ignore that in our games - but then again it may become a problem if we ever have a boostable power with more than 3 charges.

[Cantriped]

Re: Sliding bars measuring each spell's "energy"

 

I would say if your going for variance between 10 1d6 effects and 1 10d6 effect then you don't need charges, it's cludgy and something that is literally a fundemental part of the power to begin with. End cost is based upon the Active points of a power. thus a 10dc effect costs 5 END, and a 2 DC effect costs 1. (or 10 and 1 if you put increased end or use 1 END/5ap as a campaign ground rule.) you can always power down a 10 DC effect to 1 or 2 DCs if you'd like. and if that is your goal then going with a highly limited amount of END (or end reserve) at a time is a good way. especially if it recovers fast.

 

so it would be like. Hmm Do I want to fry the guy with my 10d6 Firebolt, or lower to 5d6 so that I can maintain my "Mana shield" while I do it.

 

Or if you wanted it applied to each spell seperately so that : "Hmm, I can only use 30d6 of Firebolt each day, do I really want to waste it all on this guy and end the battle fast. of should I save some for later..."

In which case you simple buy a number of charges equal to roughly how many 'times' the Base AP you want to allow a spell to be used (lets say 2 charges on a 15 DC firebolt) and then add a modifier to the Charges saying that they are "Flexible" rather then "Ultra" so each of those charges is used up in proportion to how much of the power is used.

Example: (15dc firebol with 2 "flexible" charges) This spell effectivly can be used for a maximum of 30dc's worth of Firebolt. Thus if you used 5 DCs of Firebolt to slay a goblin, you would still have 25dcs left in the 'Charges' which would recover like normal.

Such a modifier would have to halve the limitation value of the Charges. just like how a Flexible Multipower slot costs more then an Ultra.

 

course I could be misunderstanding... its late...

[Markdoc]

Re: Sliding bars measuring each spell's "energy"

 

The simplest way to do this - I like simple - is to buy the maximum amount of power you want to use and then limit it.

 

So for example, you buy a 10d6 EB and a seperate (cheap) END reserve that holds 10 END, which either has an all or nothing recovery (once per day, say) or a slow recharge. You then give the spell a limit to reflect the fact that each spell can only draw off its own END reserve, based on the size of the reserve.

 

For example an END reserve that only held 10 END would be worth maybe -1 1/2 since it's only a little more flexible than saying you have 1 use per day (which would give -2). I'd suggest using the charge limitation as a guide, with the END reserve limit giving a +1/2 more than a similar number of charges at full power because it's a bit more flexible.

 

That way, with a 10 END reserve, you can zap off a single 10d6 EB, 2 x 5 d6 EB's or 10 x 1d6 EB's per day. If you want a little more oomph, you can buy up the END reserve so you get 2 x 10d6 EB, etc.

 

cheers, Mark

[Robyn]

Re: Sliding bars measuring each spell's "energy"

 

Or if you wanted it applied to each spell seperately so that : "Hmm' date=' I can only use 30d6 of Firebolt each day, do I really want to waste it all on this guy and end the battle fast. of should I save some for later..."[/quote']

 

Yes, that's closer to what I had in mind. Of course, there wouldn't be a "daily usage" because the maximum expenditure would take more than a single day to recover.

 

Thus if you used 5 DCs of Firebolt to slay a goblin, you would still have 25dcs left in the 'Charges' which would recover like normal.

Such a modifier would have to halve the limitation value of the Charges. just like how a Flexible Multipower slot costs more then an Ultra.

 

Are you saying to build it in a Multipower, or to apply the Multipower-specific mechanics to something that isn't a Multipower?

 

I like Markdoc's solution, which involves a custom Limitation (value may vary, depending on GM, but that should be me so I won't worry ), and not a house rule

[Cantriped]

Re: Sliding bars measuring each spell's "energy"

 

Pretty much, and why not? it's a simple modification to an Existing limitation. rather then Markdoc END reserve that would require every single power be built as a Compound power and is quite literally a more expensive but practically identical solution that still requires "rules tweaking" (because your forcing the players to use a specific build either way and apply the END reserve to only 1 power.)

Example. two 10d6 Firebolts each can be used for up to... lets just say for simplicity 40d6/week (or roughly 200 AP). HEre is how the two powers would look.

 

Katal3's Firebolt: Energy Blast 10d6 (50 Active Points); Charges (4 Flexible Charges which recover every 1 Week; -3/4). [4] RC: 28 pts

 

Markdoc's Firebolt: (Total: 72 Active Cost, 56 Real Cost) Energy Blast 10d6 (Real Cost: 50) plus Endurance Reserve (20 END, 20 REC) Reserve: (22 Active Points); REC: (20 Active Points); Slow Recovery 1 Week (-3 1/2) (Real Cost: 6)

[5 end/20reserve/rec] RC: 56.

[Alcamtar]

Re: Sliding bars measuring each spell's "energy"

 

You could create a custom power modifier:

 

Divisible (+0): this allows a single "use" of a power to be subdivided into separate parts. For example a divisible 10d6 EB could be divided into two 5d6 bolts, or ten 1d6 bolts, or any combination that totals 10d6. Each partial use must be separately activated, targeted, and maintained as if it were a unique power; each activation counts as a separate action, so this isn't a cheap way to get autofire. The division of parts can be determined as needed, on the fly. All limitations (such as RSR or side effects) apply to each part, and END cost is pro-rated, just as if the power were being activated at less than full power.

 

A divisible power can be put into a VPP or a multipower. The total size of the divisible power can exceed the AP reserve, but the AP reserve limits how much can be used at any given time.

 

Divisible does not increase your power in any way. Since a power can normally be cast at less than full power, it does not really let you do anything new that you couldn't do before either. The only new things Divisible lets you do is:

(1) divide up a single charge into several uses

(2) put an oversized power into a MP (though you can't use it all at once)

Since it's not adding anything really new, the modifier cost is +0.

 

 

Now then, each divisible spell can be very large, but can be used in little bits until it is all used up. Each spell may have a single charge per day. If you want it to take more than one day to recover, extend the charges table:

 

1 use ..... -2

1/2 use ... -3 (one use per 2 days)

1/3 use ... -4 (one use per 3 days)

1/4 use ... -5 (one use per 4 days)

 

EXAMPLE: 32d6 firebolt

 

EB 32d6, divisible (+1/4), 1/4 charge (-5), misc limitations (-2)

Active: 200

Cost: 25

 

The wizard could discharge a gigantic 32d6 bolt all at once, or he could use 20x 1d6, 3x 2d6, and 1x 6d6, or any combination desired. The whole thing recharges in four days, or 8d6 per day... perhaps 1d6 per hour of sleep?

 

The 32d6 firebolt could be put into a multipower with a 50 pt reserve. In that case it would cost 2 real points, but only a maximum of 8d6 could be activated at a given time. Multipowers would make such gargantuan powers affordable, while the AP limit and slow recharge keeps them balanced

 

Very simple and flexible, and no END to keep track of.

[Robyn]

Re: Sliding bars measuring each spell's "energy"

 

Pretty much' date=' and why not?[/quote']

You could create a custom power modifier

 

Because each of these are "house rules", unofficial modifications which are untested?

 

practically identical solution that still requires "rules tweaking" (because your forcing the players to use a specific build either way and apply the END reserve to only 1 power.)

 

I don't see a problem with forcing the players to use a specific build. In fact, that's exactly what I had in mind here: once I figured out how to do it, I would let them know that that's how it had to be done, and the only way they could do it.

 

Creating an END reserve for each spell was something I have taken under consideration, and you can see this in my original post. I don't see how it would require "rules tweaking" at all.

 

Example. two 10d6 Firebolts each can be used for up to... lets just say for simplicity 40d6/week (or roughly 200 AP).

 

This model may give you an idea of what I have in mind:

 

Robyn's Firebolt: Energy Blast 10d6, Penetrating +1/2, Sticky +1/2 (AP 100, END=10),

plus END Reserve, 10 END, 10 REC (AP=11), Slow Recovery -2&1/2 (1 END every 6 hours)

 

Note that this essentially does exactly what I want it to do, mechanically. The reason I'm looking for other solutions is that this method would entail a lot of bookkeeping

[Cantriped]

Re: Sliding bars measuring each spell's "energy"

 

Well it looks like your going to end up with lots of book keeping no matter which method you use. simply because your goal is literally to track how much of each power a character can use individually.

 

However I see no reason not to make modifications to the rules. That point aside, the method I suggested isn't 'entirely' untested, simply because I dirived it's value to mechanics that already exist within the game.

Normally, a power uses of the entire 'charge' regardless of the level it is used at., much like how an Ultra slot in a multipower counts as the full AP of the power regardless of the level it is used that.

As such, if a flexible multipower slot is worth 1/2 the reduction in cost of a Ultra slot, then a 'flexible charge' qould also be worth half the normal value of a charge.

 

The mechanical change really isn't that complicated in my oppinion, and lends itself to simpler, cheaper builds. afterall, why should the character pay more points for a power when the result is a more limited power then it would have been without the extra expenditures.

 

However, that aside, I can't think of any ways of reducing the ammount of bookeeping involved without deviating completely from the goal you set out in your initial post. I'll have to think on it.

[Robyn]

Re: Sliding bars measuring each spell's "energy"

 

Well it looks like your going to end up with lots of book keeping no matter which method you use. simply because your goal is literally to track how much of each power a character can use individually.

 

And when, too. Recovery will begin when a Reserve is below full (they don't all refresh at the same time), so their exact moments of replenishment will come at different intervals.

 

the method I suggested isn't 'entirely' untested' date=' simply because I dirived it's value to mechanics that already exist within the game.[/quote']

 

There's a bit of mixing and matching, though. Those rules were tested with the mechanics they were already matched with.

 

Normally' date=' a power uses of the entire 'charge' regardless of the level it is used at.[/quote']

 

I'm not entirely clear on what the difference is between your build and a Boostable charge, though - mechanically speaking.

 

Conceptually, you start out with a single charge and say "Why have just one when you can have many?"

 

Conceptually, the book starts out with many charges and says "You can combine these if you want."

 

It seems like you're just approaching Boostable from the opposite direction.

[Cantriped]

Re: Sliding bars measuring each spell's "energy"

 

Not really, Boostable increases the Active points of the power, scaling up by a static amount in exchange for literally multipling it's cost. In addition it's limited to only +4 DCs and adds a Burnout roll to it.

A flexible charge would simply be the ability to start with a larger power and scale down without losing 'energy' or portions of the charges you didn't use.

 

All I'm saying by having a flexible Charges limitation is that - "If I only used half of the powers AP, then it should only use half the Charge that powers it" no more, no less. And because all your 'charges' recover on a set time frame that's usually longer then a single session would run anyway, it's a little easier on the paperwork end becuase you can usually assume enough time has passed to recover his charges.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Sliding bars measuring each spell's "energy"

 

I'm trying to find a balance between "free" healing (and other magical effects) and spells that are severely limited in when (and to what degree) they may take place.

 

I like the narrative effect of heroes who can push themselves if they want, but have a limited reserve of energy, and only recover it so quickly. The trick is, I want to keep track of each type of spell that they can cast, separately. So, if they've been casting fireballs and forcewalls all day long, they're about exhausted on that front, but still have a full "battery" when it comes to healing.

 

I'm currently looking at END Reserves - lots, and lots, of END Reserves - for these spells, but some sort of Boostable charge also seems like a possibility.

 

Thoughts?

 

Haven't read through everything else yet, so if this was already mentioned, I apologize.

 

Combine:

 

- Costs END (can be personal, from a battery, whatever), but this is the fuel that does the work.

 

- Has Charges. This is the nifty part. Based in part on my thoughts on a new magic system (which is ripped largely from d20) you can do something like so:

 

We'll say there are three schools of magic: Blasty, Zappy and Freezy. You happen to be a Freezy Queen, a woman with high rank among the other mages, and a specialist of Freezy magic. You purchase X number of Charges for your Freezy magic, and then Y & Z for Blasty and Zappy magic, respectively.

 

Although you might end up with excess Fuel (END) at the end of the day, you can still only cast so many spells of each type. This system accomplishes your objectives in the following way:

 

1. It leaves the weight of the charges on the purchaser, without the effort of muddling through stacks of END batteries.

 

2. It neatly simulates the ability to cast so many of a particular spell, or group of spells -- you can break it down how you like. If you wanted to do it per spell you could do that as well; then the spell would have Charges, and Costs END for an extra limitation.

 

3. Anytime you blend Charges with END, it counts as an additional limitation. I'm very fond of this mechanic myself, so I'm biased. But this mechanic seems to perfectly simulate what you want.

 

If Fireballs & Forcewalls are a group of spells, or independent spells, or tracked by themselves, whichever - you can track that easily because each one has individual charges, but the caster uses END to actually power the spell.

 

Make sense?

[Cantriped]

Re: Sliding bars measuring each spell's "energy"

 

How would Constant powers be handled? normally charges have to be bought Continuing in order to last more then a single phase. My sugesstion there would be to jsut ignore that facet of the charges rule as a side effect of the Costs END (make it cost charges + END to activate, then END to maintain)

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Sliding bars measuring each spell's "energy"

 

Or, you can set it as Uncontrolled: Set Duration, so you burn END in advance to sustain the spell. Or, you don't assign the Charges to the spells themselves, but to the group (which may be what you suggested, katal, I'm unsure).

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Sliding bars measuring each spell's "energy"

 

Or Lingering. Forgot Lingering.