SPD inflation obesrvation & solution

[Robyn]

Re: SPD inflation obesrvation & solution

 

formula which was dcv -3 x 10 + spd X 3 + pd + ed =95

 

I'd suggest parantheses around your first two items, there, otherwise the order of operations will lead us to apply the "-3x10" first, and have DCV times negative 30!

 

Examples

 

I'm going to separate these into a few steps so they're easier to follow, for me and anyone else.

 

tough guy

1. 10 dcv -3 x 3 =21 + 3 spd x3 =9 + 33 pd = 32 ed =95

 

Variables: DCV = [i]10[/i], SPD = [i]3[/i], PD = [i]33[/i], ED = [i]32[/i]
Equation: [([i]DCV[/i] - 3) x 3] + [[i]SPD[/i] x 3] + [PD] + [ED] = 95
Substitution: [([i]10[/i] - 3) x 3] + [[i]3[/i] x 3] + [[i]33[/i]] + [[i]32[/i]] = 95
Resolution #1: [(7) x 3] + [9] + 33 + 32 = 95
Resolution #2: [21] + 9 + 33 + 32 = 95

Balanced guy

2. 15 dcv-3x3=36 + 6spdx3=18 + 21pd + 20ed=95

 

Variables: DCV = [i]15[/i], SPD = [i]6[/i], PD = [i]21[/i], ED = [i]20[/i]
Equation: [([i]DCV[/i] - 3) x 3] + [[i]SPD[/i] x 3] + [PD] + [ED] = 95
Substitution: [([i]15[/i] - 3) x 3] + [[i]6[/i] x 3] + [[i]21[/i]] + [[i]20[/i]] = 95
Resolution #1: [(12) x 3] + [18] + 21 + 20 = 95
Resolution #2: [36] + 18 + 21 + 20 = 95

 

Speed guy

3. 18dcv-3x3=45 = 8spdx3=24 = =13 pd + 13ed =95

 

Variables: DCV = [i]18[/i], SPD = [i]8[/i], PD = [i]13[/i], ED = [i]13[/i]
Equation: [([i]DCV[/i] - 3) x 3] + [[i]SPD[/i] x 3] + [PD] + [ED] = 95
Substitution: [([i]18[/i] - 3) x 3] + [[i]8[/i] x 3] + [13] + [13] = 95
Resolution #1: [(15) x 3] + [24] + 13 + 13 = 95
Resolution #2: [45] + 24 + 13 + 13 = 95

[zornwil]

Re: SPD inflation obesrvation & solution

 

To me, SPD is simply a matter of just how responsive and effective you are in reacting during combat. I have NO problem with a NORMAL HUMAN who is Batman-level having a 12 SPD. Similarly, I have no problem with a metahuman such as the Hulk having a 1 SPD. Not that I've run either in an actual campaign this way given how extreme these are and due to how actual mechanics work and how costs are, but I don't see SPD as something that really is metahuman versus human and that a human couldn't attain the max in. After all, it's only ONE SECOND of action! I think if we honestly evaluated some athletes in their sports and some combat-intensive people in combat that we'd find lots of real-world people have 12 SPDs in actual effect. However, the game doesn't really work this way too well, just given how things balance. So we reserve 12 SPD for unusual levels of ability for game purposes. But that isn't the same as what a "regular human" can do versus someone altered beyond human maximum.

[Mike W]

Re: SPD inflation obesrvation & solution

 

well...my answer is Yes, but I don't get there with stats, I use tactics. And thats something the average super team has no concept of..

 

I do have spd 4 agents though PRIMUS and their horde of Cyberline junkies...

 

The rest are spd 2, elites are spd 3 and boosted agents (viper combat drugs) usually are 3 ,Zoom addicts are 4 to 5, but have little else,including tactics.

 

Tactics are another matter. I was thinking individually. A couple of properly run VIPER 5 teams should be enough to slow down any super hero team, maybe even beat them if the heroes get careless.

[Mike W]

Re: SPD inflation obesrvation & solution

 

To me' date=' SPD is simply a matter of just how responsive and effective you are in reacting during combat. I have NO problem with a NORMAL HUMAN who is Batman-level having a 12 SPD. Similarly, I have no problem with a metahuman such as the Hulk having a 1 SPD. Not that I've run either in an actual campaign this way given how extreme these are and due to how actual mechanics work and how costs are, but I don't see SPD as something that really is metahuman versus human and that a human couldn't attain the max in. After all, it's only ONE SECOND of action! I think if we honestly evaluated some athletes in their sports and some combat-intensive people in combat that we'd find lots of real-world people have 12 SPDs in actual effect. However, the game doesn't really work this way too well, just given how things balance. So we reserve 12 SPD for unusual levels of ability for game purposes. But that isn't the same as what a "regular human" can do versus someone altered beyond human maximum.[/quote']

 

I can agree with this to some extent. We tend to think of SPD purely in terms of physical speed/reaction time. But how fast we MENTALLY react is just as important. If you can't think fast, then a high SPD isn't very useful or accurate. But I do think that there needs to be a "human limit", that represents a physical limit of "no matter how fast you can think, your body can only move so quickly.

[JmOz]

Re: SPD inflation obesrvation & solution

 

I can agree with this to some extent. We tend to think of SPD purely in terms of physical speed/reaction time. But how fast we MENTALLY react is just as important. If you can't think fast' date=' then a high SPD isn't very useful or accurate. But I do think that there needs to be a "human limit", that represents a physical limit of "no matter how fast you can think, your body can only move so quickly.[/quote']

 

For that matter how fast the human mind can think as well

 

I have three levels of max on stats

 

Normal Character Max: my promice to the players that this is the highest someone will naturaly have with up to "hobby" level training, most athletes will also be at this level. I use NCM normaly

 

Human Character Maximum: This is the highest level you can have and still call yourself Human. Anything beyond this must be purchased as a power with appropriate F/X explanation*. The posibility of having adjustment powersused against the character is greatly increased pass this point. Most heroes fall into this catagory with at least some stats, as well as some athletes (The exceptional ones). This value tends to be (NCM x 1.5)

 

Campeign limit: A limit I have set for the sake of balance

 

So in my game on Dex Speed

 

NCM: 20 4

HCM: 30 6

Max: 35 8

 

*Assuming character does not use Non-Human origin type

[GrooveD70]

Re: SPD inflation obesrvation & solution

 

SPD inflation comes to mind. If the average SPD of a party is 6' date=' then SPD 3 guys will not be a challenge.[/quote']

 

 

When I use normals as opponents. I use A LOT and since they out number the heroes I have some of them hold actions so things are happening on different phases...

[GrooveD70]

Re: SPD inflation obesrvation & solution

 

So part of the question then becomes "Are agents supposed to be a challenge?". In most cases' date=' I would say "no", so agents generally get a 3. But once in a while you might come across a team leader who is a "super agent" and essentially equipped to the point that he becomes a low grade super. But there types are very rare(maybe 1 in 20 or 1 in 25).[/quote']

 

I definately agree with this. I think sometimes the Heroes need to be given the opportunity to "Bruce Lee" through an army of normals so that they remember the power they weild. Of course if this is overdone it gets boring.

[GrooveD70]

Re: SPD inflation obesrvation & solution

 

5" (standard normal from at leastone book) becomes 22 mph, or about 36 km/hr. That means standard running can sustain a movement speed well above a car moving at legal speeds down a side street. I don't know what "normal" is where you come from - that's not it in my books.

 

Definately not normal. But I haven't ever run into a problem like this in any games I have run. I have never had a Martial artist character think he could catch a speeding car on foot. (of course your example was going the speed limit).

 

The only time I really compared speeds of a character and a vehicle was when I had a character with alot of swinging. I realized that he could swing as fast as a sports car. This seemed rediculous until I thought of asll the time Sidey chases down speeding cars while webslinging. Not realistic but it works in the genre.

 

There does some to be inconsistancy when having speed determine number of attacks and movement, but it still seems to work for me.

[Shaft]

Re: SPD inflation obesrvation & solution

 

So part of the question then becomes "Are agents supposed to be a challenge?". In most cases' date=' I would say "no", so agents generally get a 3. But once in a while you might come across a team leader who is a "super agent" and essentially equipped to the point that he becomes a low grade super. But there types are very rare(maybe 1 in 20 or 1 in 25).[/quote']

 

So what's a good SPD to make a challenge-worthy Team Leader? SPD 4 will make the team leader get his butt whupped on segemtn 3 instead of segment 4. Maybe he'll need a SPD 5 or 6 to get the PCs to notice him.

 

Hmm, with a SPD like that, maybe he should consider the Olympics. I suspect it would get him more recognition than being one of a few dozen arrested people in a Viper Nest sweep.

 

On that note, if you maintain that maximum SPD for a person within the bounds of human limits is about 6 or 7 how come no one with just even a SPD 5 and 10" of running has ever tried participating in the Olympics? Would they get disqualified for being superhuman, despite being "in the normal range"? Why doesn't the military push its special forces to achieve SPD 6? Do they decide SPD 4 is "okay"? It's more likely that the military would push it's SF teams to ~SPD 6 or 7 since the possibility that their commandos might have to face off against a metahuman is likely, and they are supposed to prepared for anything.

 

With that logic in mind, does a 5+ SPD automatically lead to an adventurous life as a costumed hero. How come SPD 6 or 7 "normal" people don't opt for alternate careers that don't require costumes? I think a SPD 6 or 7 "normal" would make a great bodyguard in the Secret Service. Or a Viper Team leader.

 

Of course, the SPD 7 Viper team leader didn't just get to be SPD 7 overnight. Does this mean there are SPD 5 or 6 Viper agents training to become leaders? Maybe the Viper agents are angry bitter athletes who've been kicked out of the Olympics for having too much SPD (the stat, not the upper) and nothing else?

 

This is the problem with SPD inflation- it creates a subsection of society that has different metrics largely because of people's flawed perception of what human range is. In my book, the average costumed adventurer should be SPD 4 or 5- the upper limit of "normal" human SPD. This way, a 350 pt will have the edge over a squad of SPD 3 agents and find a SPD 4 highly trained ~200 pt normal to be a noteworthy, but simple challenge.

 

All of this is just my IMHO.

[Shaft]

Re: SPD inflation obesrvation & solution

 

When I use normals as opponents. I use A LOT and since they out number the heroes I have some of them hold actions so things are happening on different phases...

 

Likewise: multiple attackers can stack to get good bonuses and take advantage of held actions.

 

I definately agree with this. I think sometimes the Heroes need to be given the opportunity to "Bruce Lee" through an army of normals so that they remember the power they weild. Of course if this is overdone it gets boring.

 

I would have no problem believing that Bruce Lee is "only" SPD 4 or possibly 5 and that the Chuck Dumbos he is up against are SPD 2 with a minimal grasp of tactics in the various scenes you are referring to. In those same films, "bosses" appear that stand out from the masses who are only SPD 3 or even 4. When the average hero's SPD climbs up to 6, you have to inflate the average mooks to SPD 3 and the standout ones to 5 or 6, and that breaks the feel.

 

There are other ways for a 350+ pt character to wade through a group of mooks without relying on overwhelming SPD advantage: Defense maneuver, general or specialised DCV levels, tactics, and optimal placing of one's self on the combat map. Relying purely on inflated SPD values is a sloppy way to do it when there are other options that have so much more finesse.

[GrooveD70]

Re: SPD inflation obesrvation & solution

 

 

There are other ways for a 350+ pt character to wade through a group of mooks without relying on overwhelming SPD advantage: Defense maneuver, general or specialised DCV levels, tactics, and optimal placing of one's self on the combat map. Relying purely on inflated SPD values is a sloppy way to do it when there are other options that have so much more finesse.

 

There is truth to what you are saying, but I think most Superheroes are able to take signifigantly more actions than normals in fiction. Many times in fiction the superhero is sorrounded by opponents and using the ability to act more often to defeat them. In other Genre's there is less of a difference and I think the system already addresses this. Of course, you can save points by using the finesse that you describe and it would show better tactics and game knowledge at the table.

 

But, to me, its all relative. Batman at speed 4 mooks at 1 or 2 and Batman at speed 6 and the mooks at 3 would be about the same. The difference comes back to movement per turn and of course how often you can take a phase 12 Recovery.

 

This issue hasn't affected my game negatively and I'm too lazy to change the SPD's of the Villians in my Campaign. It would actually change a lot. The Pc's would spend less on speed and spend the points elsewhere, so I feel like I would need to do the same for every villian.

 

I think that what people are saying in this thread is more or less true, its just really not an issue worth fixing for me.

[JmOz]

Re: SPD inflation obesrvation & solution

 

One thing I would support for hero 6 to do however

 

Change a turn to 24 seconds (with each phase being 2 sec.)

 

And giving all movement x4 NCM

 

You can see why with a min of thinking about it...

[Shaft]

Re: SPD inflation obesrvation & solution

 

This issue hasn't affected my game negatively and I'm too lazy to change the SPD's of the Villians in my Campaign. It would actually change a lot. The Pc's would spend less on speed and spend the points elsewhere, so I feel like I would need to do the same for every villian.

 

I think that what people are saying in this thread is more or less true, its just really not an issue worth fixing for me.

 

Well, as they say, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. I'm just pointing out an observation. I don't expect the collective HEROdom to bow to my willpower... yet! Moohaha!

 

(crap, I typed "yet" out loud, didn't I? )

[Shaft]

Re: SPD inflation obesrvation & solution

 

One thing I would support for hero 6 to do however

 

Change a turn to 24 seconds (with each phase being 2 sec.)

 

And giving all movement x4 NCM

 

You can see why with a min of thinking about it...

 

Uh, perhaps you can explain it for all the M&M lurkers...

 

(and for me since I don't get it...)

[casualplayer]

Re: SPD inflation obesrvation & solution

 

If you've played a lot of Heroic-level HERO you know that ratcheting down the SPD means that post-12 Recovery just keeps getting better and better. Fights will take "longer" in game-relative time because the opponents are only attacking 2-3/turn. Reduced END and Cost END to Activate become unnecessary because of the greatly reduced END expenditure/turn, and Continuous powers benefit too (I only have to pay END for my FF twice!).

 

With the addition of stuff like Multiple Power Attacks and Rapid Fire, SPD no longer translates into "number of times I can attack per turn," which is a good thing IMHO. I think diminishing the mean SPD of games would go a long way towards abating my dislike of those two abilities. I think I'm sold; my next supers game will probably have a mean SPD of 3 rather than 5.

[JmOz]

Re: SPD inflation obesrvation & solution

 

Uh, perhaps you can explain it for all the M&M lurkers...

 

(and for me since I don't get it...)

 

Basicaly my sugestion allows for higher speeds on characters while keeping movement in check. In my fantacy game right now (Where elves are allowed to go to speed 5) all of the speeds sit at 3-4, I would like to see a wider spread...

[Trebuchet]

Re: SPD inflation obesrvation & solution

 

If the villains average a 5' date=' that same speedster now needs a 7 or 8 SPD to get the same effect. Same thing with the martial artists, who generally want to have a +1 SPD to offset their lack of hitting power.[/quote']IME martial artists and speedsters need that extra SPD as much or more for taking defensive actions as to compensate for their relative lack of hitting power. Because they are also typically more lightly defended than most other archetypes, they often need to blow Phases to Dive for Cover, Martial Block, etc., to keep from getting pasted by attacks their better-defended comrades would simply absorb.

[Sean Waters]

Re: SPD inflation obesrvation & solution

 

IME martial artists and speedsters need that extra SPD as much or more for taking defensive actions as to compensate for their relative lack of hitting power. Because they are also typically more lightly defended than most other archetypes' date=' they often need to blow Phases to Dive for Cover, Martial Block, etc., to keep from getting pasted by attacks their better-defended comrades would simply absorb.[/quote']

 

...OTOH I know plenty of martial artists that, with the various bonuses they can accumulate trhough MA, STR and extra DXs, not to mention a smattering of HtH Attack are dishing out damage comperable to the brick and the blaster and whilst few can take a punch like the brick, to be fair their DEX is usually so high that they only need really worry about AoEs and the occasional lucky shot, so getting hit is only an occasional problem anyway.

 

Speed is really just a complicating factor that changes the rate at which you can do damage and the options you have in combat, but no given speed is 'right'. It depends very much on what you believe speed represents.

 

My biggest problem with speed is the multiplication of move factor, which is solveable by house rule. Other than that I have never thought of any particular speed, or speed range as 'right' for a particular campaign or character, although it is often nice to keep campaign speeds in a narrow range or the slowsters tend to get very bored.

[Warpcore Breach]

Re: SPD inflation obesrvation & solution

 

There are a few perfectly normal people who have a very high SPD stat. If you ever watch some one who does quality control on an assembly line or some such they are acting once per second or so to check every item that passes them. I recently saw a documentary on cranberries and there were people who picked out bad berries at a rate faster than one per second. Just because someone might have a hi SPD stat does not make them an athelete, just superior response time and perhaps a hi DEX as well for the hand-eye coordination to pick those bad berries. In my GMing experience the only people who care about their overland running or flying speed that much are those who qualify as Superspeeders. Our games have escalated over the years though, so that now the average SPD is a 6. Most Agents and such are 3s to 4s. My only problem with this is that very few fights last through a segment 12 REC phase.

[Robyn]

Re: SPD inflation obesrvation & solution

 

There are a few perfectly normal people who have a very high SPD stat. If you ever watch some one who does quality control on an assembly line or some such they are acting once per second or so to check every item that passes them. I recently saw a documentary on cranberries and there were people who picked out bad berries at a rate faster than one per second.

 

Could be a level of Rapid on their normal sight, plus an AOE with Selective.

[Shaft]

Re: SPD inflation obesrvation & solution

 

There are a few perfectly normal people who have a very high SPD stat. If you ever watch some one who does quality control on an assembly line or some such they are acting once per second or so to check every item that passes them. I recently saw a documentary on cranberries and there were people who picked out bad berries at a rate faster than one per second. Just because someone might have a hi SPD stat does not make them an athelete' date=' just superior response time and perhaps a hi DEX as well for the hand-eye coordination to pick those bad berries. In my GMing experience the only people who care about their overland running or flying speed that much are those who qualify as Superspeeders. Our games have escalated over the years though, so that now the average SPD is a 6. Most Agents and such are 3s to 4s. My only problem with this is that very few fights last through a segment 12 REC phase.[/quote']

 

Your assembly line berry picker is at 0 DCV, set (on a stool) & braced (knees against the assembly line). If his Dex is just 8, his OCV is 3 and he gets +3 for being set & braced- that lets him hit on a 17- (minus size modifiers) if the GM insists on a roll. PS: berry picker would probably allow him to offset some of these penatlies.

 

The berry he's targeting is 0 DCV. I suspect that if the assembly line were in combat, the berry picker's actions would drop dramatically. I might even argue that berry picking is a 0 phase action and an appropriate skill allows you to get an optimal number of 0 phase actions per second.

 

Do you think a drummer who can hit his high hat and snare several times a second has a 12+ SPD and ambidexterity? SPD isn't individual actions per second- it's effective actions in combat. Learning one skill that is used quickly out of combat is a function of skill, not SPD.

 

Remember, the turns are broken down into phases to track actions. A 4 SPD character can do a half move (covering a few meters) while punching. He can keep his full DCV while snap firing or sweeping at multiple, moving targets also at full DCV. Combat time gives you a butt load of 0 phase actions to reflect simple, uncontested actions- like berry pickin, in combat. One can assume 0 phase actions are even easier out of combat.