Identify Spell

[Mazeus Xenon]

Okay, if this has been discussed already somewhere please tell me where to go!

...

wait, just tell me where the post is... yeah, that's it...

 

Anywho,

I have been kicking this around for some time and probably even asked about this one already but how would you define an "identify" spell using Fantasy Hero? Or do you even use one? And if it does exist somewhere in a book - and I am just being dim - please direct me!

 

My version is this (as a base "power" it's 3pts/1d6):

Object Analysis (1d6 Minor Transform (Unknown Object Details to Known Object Details)) (10pts) (+½, -4; 3pts)

Adv: Partial Transformation (+½) (This is to allow a user to get some but not all information to be discovered if they stop before the full AP of the object is reached)

Lim: Extra Time (1 Minute; Cannot Activate Other Powers; -3), Requires Skill Roll (Magic Power; -½), Side Effect: Major (1d6 Aid to Item (Fades at 1 Point/Month; Only to affect Total Active Points for Object Analysis); -½)

[Alcamtar]

Re: Identify Spell

 

Transforming the object would mean that once identified, everyone would know all about it from them on.

 

The easiest way is just to let the wizard "see" the details of the magic: Enhanced Senses: Detect (Magic), discriminatory

 

This lets a wizard examine the magic in an item with a PER roll (which means he could make a mistake or be fooled by an illusion). You can assign modifiers to the PER roll based on how much information is desired, or conversely reveal information based on how much the PER roll is made by. Also perception means the wizard won't be able to understand anything he does not recognize, or fails to realize the significance of. So he will benefit from taking plenty of time to study it, consulting a reference library, etc.

 

A simple rule would be: for each point by which the PER roll is made, the caster can identify one additional function, starting with the least significant. Full identification may require a PER roll at a penalty equal to 1/10 the AP in the power.

 

For a 1st Ed AD&D version:

 

Detect Magic (discriminatory), OAF expendable: 100gp pearl (-2), Extra time: 8 hours (-3.5), Concentration 0 DCV (-1/2), caster must handle item and suffers any adverse effects for use (-1/4), results limited by perception and knowledge (-1/4)

 

AP: 10, Cost: 1

[Mazeus Xenon]

Re: Identify Spell

 

Okay, that makes sense - both the potential "negative" effect (that everyone would know) of the transform and the limitations applied to the Detect. I never could wrap my brain around the detect without it seeming to cheap for me (not in cost but ease of use).

 

Thanks - I may have to look into your idea more!

 

Anyone else have input? I love to see what people think...

[Alcamtar]

Re: Identify Spell

 

No other "good" solutions but here are some wacky ideas:

 

Summon 100 pt demon, who can innately understand magic and tell you all about it (if you can wrangle the truth from him)

 

KS: (19-) w/variable result (so you can apply it to different items)

 

Mind Link: wizard to magic item (wierd, but???)

 

Clairvoyance, extradimensional (through time) to observe the creator making the item; combine with Analyze(Magic) skill to figure out how he did it.

 

Inventor (Magical Reverse Engineering) skill

 

Or how about paying off the points for the Independent limitation so it becomes "your" item. Once it's "yours" you should know all about it. Kind of expensive though.

 

Transfer: AP in item to wizard's INT. This "uploads" the magic into the wizard's brain so he can understand it, then it gradually bleeds back into the item. If you fail to transfer all the AP you only gain partial understanding.

 

Luck 6d6, combined with trial-and-error

 

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Identify Spell

 

Detect Information about Magic Items (Class of Things); Discriminatory, Analyze.

 

Flavor to taste with "spellcasting" modifiers du jour.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Identify Spell

 

And, oh yeah,

 

Spells

[Frenchman]

Re: Identify Spell

 

Telepathy to read the 'mind' of the item.

EGO is related to active points (maybe EGO=AP, or could be a sliding scale). Powerful magical items may have mental defense to resist this, or they may be easier to read.

EGO +0 Tells you whether or not the item is magical and any general magical abilities it has (It is a magic ring with protective abilities)

EGO +10 Will tell you its primary function(s), if they are common or obvious (It is a magic ring which wards off attacks, making you more difficult to target)

EGO +20 Gets you information about uncommon/inobvious primary functions and also about secondary functions (It is a magic ring which deflects attacks via a repulsing force field, which also keeps out harmful gasses)

EGO +30 Will tell you pretty much anything about an item you wish.

Use the rules for number of questions to see how many different things the caster finds out.

[Mazeus Xenon]

Re: Identify Spell

 

Ooohh... I like the variant of Telepathy! A truly odd way to do it but I did ask...

 

Now, do I go the cheap way with A detect or a more expensive but heavily limited Telepathy?

[Frenchman]

Re: Identify Spell

 

Now' date=' do I go the cheap way with A detect or a more expensive but heavily limited Telepathy?[/quote']

Depends on whether you are a player or the GM

[Mazeus Xenon]

Re: Identify Spell

 

Well, I'm the GM so I have to make it complicated!

 

For those of you who are interested, here is a new power I wrote up for Identification (of anything). Feel free to give me your opinions... in case anyone would ever hold back!

 

Power Analysis (!)

Type: Standard Power

Duration: Instant

Target: Target’s DCV

Range: No Range

Costs END: Yes

Cost: 5pts for every 1d6 of Object Analysis

 

This power is used by a character to determine the specific details of any power on a person, area, or object. Each time the power is used the dice are rolled and a cumulative total is determined. Once the total exceeds the AP of the power being analyzed the character will know all the details possible, from the dice of effect to any limitations or weakness. Each Turn the total is reduced by 5pts as the power fades over time.

 

Power Analysis has a maximum possible effect equal to the maximum possible rolled on the dice of the power (if the power has 2d6 the maximum is 12pts, 4d6 is 24pts, etc.). The maximum possible may make it so that a power or effect can never be properly analyzed and no detailed is determined.

Just as with Adjustment Powers, Power Analysis is reduced by the Power Defense of the target. This is the defense of the actual target, not the individual who initially created the power.

 

Adders

Increased Maximum: As stated before there is a maximum effect possible for Power Analysis equal to the maximum possible of the dice available. This maximum can be increased by 2pts for every 1pt spent.

 

Advantages

Autofire: As Power Analysis applies against Power Defense, Autofire costs an additional +1 Advantage.

 

Cumulative: Applying this Advantage will not overcome the Maximum Effect of the power.

 

Delayed Return Rate (+¼ or greater): The cumulative effect of Power Analysis fades at a rate of 5 Character Points per Turn. For a +¼ Advantage the return rate moves one level down the Time Chart. For example, a Power Analysis that fades at the rate of 5 Character Points every 20 Minutes is three levels down the Time Chart, making it a +¾ Advantage.

 

Ongoing Results (+½ to +2): Normally Power Analysis gives no details until it is complete, when it gives everything. For a +½ Advantage Power Analysis can give information on an ongoing basis, based on the total accumulated. The table below indicated the percent of the total AP that must be achieved before the information. The information on the table is a cumulative total, so to get to “Charges” would require 85% of the total items to be analyzed.

 

For a full +1 Advantage the power can gain the Pinpoint Results. This allows the user of the power to determine what effects are learned and when during the process the information is gained. Each percentage indicted on the table is all that is needed for a total. The specific step must be indicated before dice are initially rolled. The step must then be completed and any “extra” can be applied to the next step selected. For an additional +½ (+1½ Total; “Roll Breakdown”) each dice roll can be applied to a different step, each gaining their own individual totals. Extras from this affect (once a step is complete) can be put into any one other step. At the +2 Advantage the total rolled can be divided in any breakdown desired by the individual using the power.

 

Identification Steps - %Total

1) AP of the item (basically, the required total to fully identify) - 5%

 

2) Type of Psionic within the item (if any) - 5%

 

3) Number of powers within the item - 10%

 

4) Command Words for each power/effect - 15%

 

5) Details of each power/effect - 50%

Typical order of details (breaking down the 50%):

a. Damage/Dice of effect - 35%

b. Advantages (least powerful to most) - 10%

c. Limitations (least powerful to most) - 5%

 

6) Charges (if any) - 5%

 

7) Noteworthy Limitations - 10%

Typical order of the details (breaking down the 10%)

a. Limitations that are not obvious - 5%

b. Usually Side Effects or disadvantage-like effects from using the item - 5%

 

This advantage can allow Power Analysis to learn some things about a power even if they cannot achieve a higher enough total to determine all details.

 

Limitations

Costs END to Maintain (-¼ to -½): Power Analysis only costs END when it is initially used. Each use costs END as necessary but the cumulative effects do not need to be maintained. Applying this Limitation requires the individual to spend END or they will lose any cumulative effect on the power.

 

For a -¼ Limitation the END cost is half that to use the power. The -½ Limitation requires the individual to spend the full END to maintain the power. This is after any Increased END Limitation is applied to the power.

 

Limited Special Effects (-¼ to -2): The standard Power Analysis affects all types of special effects. If this is more restricted then this Limitation will apply.

 

Depending on how the Special Effects are limited affects the value of this Limitation. If the power affects a group of very common special effects then the value is -¼. If it is a single very common or group of common effects then the value is -½. If it can only affect a single common effects or a group of uncommon effects then the value is

-1. At -1½ the power is limited to only a single uncommon special effect or a group of rare effects. A -2 Limitation is when the power is limited to only affecting a single rare effect.

 

As an alternative, the power can be limited to be useless against some types of special effects. The values would then work in reverse (useless against a single, rare effect then the limitation would be -¼ and useless against a group of very common effects would be a -2 Limitation).

 

Limited Target Type (-¼ to -2): As a standard power, Power Analysis can affect any single power regardless of the type of power (personal, focus, etc.). If the type of target is fewer than “everything” this Limited Target Type can apply. The more limited the targets the bigger the limitation value.

 

For a -¼ Limitation the target can be limited to be a broad group of types of effects (attack powers, mental effects, etc.). At -½ the effect is of a tight group (personal effects, item powers, spells of the Order of the Red Robes, etc.). For a -1 Limitation it is even more specific (items created by the Order of the Red Robes for example). At -2 this makes for a very specific effect (Only against item created by the High Priest of the Order of the Red Robes).

[Frenchman]

Re: Identify Spell

 

It looks good, but what does the loss of effect over time represent? Does the person using the power forget what they learn from it? Why couldn't they write it down? I also think it may be a tad too cheap for an ID Everything power.

How about you model it on Dispel instead of Aid/Drain? 3 points per die, base level is that it IDs one power, and use the Adjustment rules for Expanded Effect to make it increasingly more useful. Since Dispel isn't (normally) cumulative, one would need to have a large number of dice to get everything - but your take on the Partial Effect advantage could ameiliorate that a lot. You may even consider giving the power the Partial Effect bit as a default, and making a limitation for a power that is All-or-Nothing.

[Old Man]

Re: Identify Spell

 

Looks to me like you already spelled identify correctly.

[Mazeus Xenon]

Re: Identify Spell

 

... ... ...

 

Okay, I have tried to explain why I wanted the fade effect and the only thing I can think of is that the target is magic and resists the effect, causing the power to "fade" over time, which would be pointless in a Star Hero or even a Superhero game. And why couldn't they write information down? I dunno - hence why I ask for input!

 

I do like the idea of using Dispel as a variation, or at least having it as a single thing for each use rather than "you know everything" once it is done.

 

In defense of my cost, however, I think that 5pts/1d6 is okay, but only if I am going the way of a Dispel-like power rather than a Drain. I think a maximum should still apply as it will make truely powerful effects unidentifiable but some information could still be gained. I also think the All-or-nothing allows for a lower cost initially and then apply the Ongoing Results Advantage to increase the cost as described.

 

Any more comments?

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Identify Spell

 

Personally I dont see a point to it. Detect exists and completely covers the concept. I dont have a problem with adding custom Powers to do things when its useful, but I see no use to it here.

[Mazeus Xenon]

Re: Identify Spell

 

Well, I always thought Detect was just too cheap for the information... but that's just my opinion!

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Identify Spell

 

Well' date=' I always thought Detect was just too cheap for the information... but that's just my opinion![/quote']

 

A) That would depend entirely on the cost relative to the points involved. In most Fantasy Campaigns Detects are quite expensive compared to the total points available.

 

If you want to rein in Detects, just scale the information received based upon how much they made the roll by to a greater degree than normal. Also, don't forget that Discriminatory and Analyze are often necessary to get finally grained data, which increases the cost by 10 points. .

[Mazeus Xenon]

Re: Identify Spell

 

Oh, I know I can do whatever I need to make a detect more expensive and tons of other aspects. I just like the idea of doce totals to give a result rather than "just" making a dice roll and see how much you made it by... I dunno which would be "better" except for personal preference!

[Cantriped]

Re: Identify Spell

 

Hmm, Interesting new power, but like KS I don't feel there is a need for it. the idea of a 'Power Analysis' Power jsut isn't necessary, depending upon how it works thematicly both Detect and Telepathy are much more appropos then making a new mechanic.

Additionally Detect is better anyway because you have a greater level of control over it's effect, and the target usually still has to make a Per roll if the magic in question has been concealed or circumstances might make it harder to notice.

Don't forget too that the basic un-added-to Detect has no range and takes a half-phase action to use. Making a more traditional 'Detect Magic' spell isn't necessarially cheap

[Frenchman]

Re: Identify Spell

 

Don't forget too that the basic un-added-to Detect has no range and takes a half-phase action to use. Making a more traditional 'Detect Magic' spell isn't necessarially cheap

Unless of course, the character can 'see' magical auras (and in dnd, as well as many other settings, that is 'traditional'), then its part of the sight group and gets Range and Discriminatory for 5 points. +5 PER, slap on G&I and RSR, and for 5 points its yours. This is before any cost reductions or putting it in a framework like most spellcasters have to do to afford more than 3 spells, meaning that it'll likely cost the character 1-2 points. Thats cheap.

I happen to agree with MX, detects are very inexpensive (they should be in most cases) and there is little guideline for how much information is revealed by them. Yes, yes, yes, we could take our little table and replace "AP+X" with "Succeed by X or more," but we either:

A - Make the penalties so huge, in order to challenge the rather inexpensive +20 PER, that someone with a "natural" ability to detect magic (usually as part of a race package in my games) has no chance of getting much information, or:

2: Have a lower threshold, and suffer either detect spells that cost a pittance or are always achieving maximum effect.

Just as Detect Thought would be a bit annoying to model with Enhanced Senses, and thus is a separate power (Telepathy), I think that a more general 'detection' power for divining complex information (with similar mechanics to telepathy or what has been proposed in this thread) would be a useful addition in some games.

Also, rolling dice is fun.

[Cantriped]

Re: Identify Spell

 

Uhm... yeah but I've never seen a 'Detect Magic' spell that had a +20 to PER rolls built into it. That point aside a simple Detect Magic should be cheap, spells are already visible to start with in many cases.

Additionally there is a pretty big difference between Detecting 'Thoughts' and Detecting 'Magic'. In the case of a Detect, you are purchasing the ability to 'percieve' a specific change in your environment, in the case of telepathy you are not. you're are forging a connection through sheer will that allows you to, among other things, percieve something that has no environmental cue (thoughts) and to communicate in a way that also leaves almost no environmental cue. Since a Mental Awareness (a form of detect) picks up telepathy, it's not really invisible.

As a player, I simply do not see the benefit in paying more of my points when the same level of perception about any other topic costs so much less. This is compounded by the fact that most of the 'magic' this power is detecting isn't invisible to normal senses in the first place (unlike mentalism), so the player could probably learn jsut as much via Skills he already possessed as your 'Magic Item Telepaty' is likely to tell him.

It simply isn't fair, and the power construct (interesting though it may be) is simply not worth the opportunity cost involved.

[Ternaugh]

Re: Identify Spell

 

And in my campaign, the most typical way of identifying a spell or item is to observe it, and then research it in a well-equipped library or with a scholar. Activation words are usually gleaned from hearing them, or finding something in the working notes of the wizard in question. Detect Magic with Discriminatory and Analyze are helpful, but will not discern everything. There's always "some assembly required".

 

JoeG

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Identify Spell

 

Remember also that Discriminatory only lets you tell the difference between things (discrimination). It doesn't tell you what they are. For an Identify spell, I'd say you definitely need Analize. And don't forget that some magic items may have built-in properties that make them hard to Identify.