FH1 Variable Advantage

[Chris Goodwin]

I need a current equivalent to the first edition Fantasy Hero Variable Advantage. It worked differently than Variable Advantage works now. Back then you bought your base points in a spell, then applied Variable Advantage to this. You then had as many Active Points to work with as your base points, and could use any Advantages as long as the total didn't exceed that. For example, if you had a 60 Active Point Ranged Killing Attack with Variable Advantage, you could have a 4d6 RKA, a 2 1/2d6 Armor Piercing or Explosion, a 2d6 Area Effect, etc., as long as it maxed out at 60 Active Points. I can come up with a couple of possible workarounds (multipower, VPP limited to variations on one Power, naked Variable Advantage with Limitations), but I'm curious as to whether anyone can get anything closer. In this particular instance I can't use house rules, otherwise I would do so.

 

Any ideas?

[JmOz]

Aid: can add advantages?

[JMHammer]

Easiest Solution?

 

I think the easiest way to represent it under the current rules is with a Variable Power Pool. Unfortunately, I tend to think that nearly anything is best represented with a Variable Power Pool of one sort or another... Barring a Variable Power Pool, which will probably be the least expensive way to do this anyway, you're going to have to make up some kind of house rule or otherwise define your own advantage.

 

FWIW, I frankly find the cost of the 5E Variable Advantage to be too high, especially if one wants to combine it with Variable Special Effect even in its lower-end form. It's almost always less exensive to just put together an appropriately-limited Variable Power Pool to handle this sort of thing, and doing so usually gives the character just that much more flexibility.

 

To keep things simple, I'd do it this way:

 

1- Improved Variable Advantage: To represent a power that always has the same base power (and disadvantages) but can apply any advantage or combination of advantages - including power adders - within the bounds of its special effect as long as the total active points don't exceed the active points purchased of the base power, apply this +1 advantage. Limitations are applied normally.

 

Example (1a): 10d6 Energy Blast, Improved Variable Advantage, Total Cost 100. Example powers: 10d6 Energy Blast; 8d6 Energy Blast, 1/2 END; 3d6 Energy Blast NND, Explosion, 0 END; 5d6 Energy Blast, Armor Piercing, Penetrating.

 

Example (1b): 25" Teleport, Improved Variable Advantage, Total Cost 100. Example powers: 25" Teleport; 20" Teleport, 1/2 END; 10" Teleport, Position Shift, No Relative Velocity, x2 Mass, Safe Blind Teleport.

 

2- Improved Variable Limitation: To represent a power that always has the same base power (and advantages) but can apply any combination of limitations - or none at all - within the bounds of its special effect as long as the total real points don't exceed the real points of the power as it would cost without the application of this advantage, apply this +1 advantage. Other advantages are applied normally.

 

Example (2a): 8d6 Energy Blast, 1/2 END, Improved Variable Limitation, Total Cost 100. Example powers: 8d6 Energy Blast, 1/2 END; 14d6 Energy Blast, 1/2 END, Extra Turn.

 

Example (2b): 25" Teleport, Improved Variable Limitation, Total Cost 100. Example powers: 25" Teleport; 50" Teleport, x3 END Cost.

 

3- Variable Power: To represent a power that always has the same base power but can apply any combination of advantages - including power adders - or limitations - or none at all- within the bounds of its special effect as long as the total real points don't exceed the real points of the power as it would cost without the application of this advantage, apply this +2 advantage. No limitations, and no other advantages, may be applied to the power.

 

Example (3a): 10d6 Energy Blast, Variable Power, Total Cost 150. Example Powers: 10d6 Energy Blast; 10d6 Energy Blast NND, x3 END Cost; 20d6 Energy Blast, Explosion, 1/2 DCV Concentration, x3 END Cost, Extra Phase.

 

Example (3b): 25" Teleport, Variable Power, Total Cost 150. Example Powers: 25" Teleport; 25" Teleport, x2 Mass, Useable As Attack, Ranged, 27+1/2D6 Side Effect (Extreme, Always), Full Phase.

 

Switching advantages and/or limitations is a zero-phase action and for all game mechanics is also handled the same as reallocating points within a "cosmic" Variable Power Pool.

 

I don't see how I could apply more than +2 to the cost of my Variable Power advantage proposal, since that already makes it cost more than a "cosmic" Variable Power Pool with the same number of reserve points, but much more limited since this Variable Power advantage works with only one base power. Granted, Variable Power permits the active points of the power to exceed the total of the "reserve" so I suppose that balances out the fact that it's limited to only one base power. Then again, in most of my games I treat both Multipower Reserves and Variable Power Pools as real points and not an active point cap, which gives players who use them more flexibility.

 

In any case, I think this definitely points up the excessive costs of 5E Variable Advantage and Variable Limitation.

 

John H

[Chris Goodwin]

Originally posted by JmOz

Aid: can add advantages?

 

That doesn't do me any good at all. I'd start with a 60 point RKA, for instance, and end up with a 60 point RKA with Advantages on it.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Easiest Solution?

 

Originally posted by JMHammer

I think the easiest way to represent it under the current rules is with a Variable Power Pool. Unfortunately, I tend to think that nearly anything is best represented with a Variable Power Pool of one sort or another... Barring a Variable Power Pool, which will probably be the least expensive way to do this anyway, you're going to have to make up some kind of house rule or otherwise define your own advantage.

 

Well, like I said there's a good reason I can't do that.

 

I think that I can use a Multipower with Naked Advantages, at least Hero Designer lets it through. That won't get me necessarily any Advantage I want, but I can put in a bunch of common ones. So I can have a 60 point RKA, or a 30 point RKA with Area Effect, or a 40 point RKA with Explosion or Armor Piercing, with perhaps an extra slot for Variable Advantage in case of any oddballs. That might be the way I end up doing it.

 

Thanks for your assistance, everyone.

[Jhamin]

It sounds like you already have the answer (VPP) but can't use it. Maybe if you could tell us why a VPP is no good it would help.

 

I mean, if a VPP is out but a monstrosity like a Multipower with naked advantages is in then it sounds like you are running in a pretty nonstandard game.

[Chris Goodwin]

Originally posted by Jhamin

It sounds like you already have the answer (VPP) but can't use it. Maybe if you could tell us why a VPP is no good it would help.

 

I mean, if a VPP is out but a monstrosity like a Multipower with naked advantages is in then it sounds like you are running in a pretty nonstandard game.

 

Okay. VPP is no good because you can't limit the pool. You end up paying something like 67 points for a spell that, in the source material, cost 15. I'd rather have that same spell cost 30-40 points than 67, because if I'm going to do that I'd be better off using 5th edition Variable Advantage.

 

The other alternative is to use Variable Advantage and limit the whole Power with Limited To X Active Points. This is perhaps the easiest way to do it.

[Talon]

I think the idea of the Aid solution was to start with a minimum amount of the power, and then have Aid that boosts it to the appropriate AP max and which has the ability to add advantages. Still might not be what you want, though.

[misterdeath]

From the Digital Hero Archives http://www.herogames.com/FreeStuff/dharchives/versatile.htm

 

Buy Power with that and Variable Advantage, and there you go.

 

D

[misterdeath]

A more strictly games legal variant would be to buy the low powered EB and then buy the Aid can add advantages separately.

 

You can still use the Aid to add straight dice, but then add advantages and dice depending on your wishes.

 

I like the MP of Naked Advantages, myself. But hey, that's me.

 

D

[Chris Goodwin]

Originally posted by misterdeath

From the Digital Hero Archives http://www.herogames.com/FreeStuff/dharchives/versatile.htm

 

Buy Power with that and Variable Advantage, and there you go.

 

D

 

Let us say, for the sake of argument, that I were writing something for publication. If there were any house rules in it, the Line Developer would reject it. Stuff from the Digital Hero archives would count as a house rule for this purpose. That's why I can't use 'em. Basically, anything that HeroDesigner will let me build without a Custom Modifier, I can use.

[Jhamin]

Originally posted by archer

Let us say, for the sake of argument, that I were writing something for publication. If there were any house rules in it, the Line Developer would reject it. Stuff from the Digital Hero archives would count as a house rule for this purpose. That's why I can't use 'em. Basically, anything that HeroDesigner will let me build without a Custom Modifier, I can use.

 

I'm not trying to be short, but it seems like some things need to be said.

 

First off, I wouldn't put that kind of faith in Herodesigner. It applies the rules, but doesn't arbitrate them. There are still "best practices" to be followed. Heck, even CKC has several villians with powers bought in a way that need GM permission to be legal.

 

Secondly, I don't know how much more we can help. The way most Hero Players I know would do this is with a VPP, this is precicely what VPPs are for. The advantage you are trying to simulate didn't make it into the last edition of Hero system. let alone the current one. It has basically been out of the game for at least 14 years. This advantage gave you a lot of utility for very little cost and (i suspect) was removed for that reason. Simulating it in 5th will either be expensive or require house rules.

 

That being said, either go with a bunch of Naked advantages (a multipower is probably pushing in IMHO) or Variable Advantage with limits. It won't be perfect but it will be as close as you are going to get.

[misterdeath]

Originally posted by archer

Let us say, for the sake of argument, that I were writing something for publication. If there were any house rules in it, the Line Developer would reject it. Stuff from the Digital Hero archives would count as a house rule for this purpose. That's why I can't use 'em. Basically, anything that HeroDesigner will let me build without a Custom Modifier, I can use.

 

Ah, I see. Hmmm. [drums fingers while pondering]

 

Naked modifiers are probably the way to go. I still like the Multipower of Modifiers idea (and have used it in the past for a Martial Artist), but if you're looking for Fantasy Spells, that might be against the magic style. Plus, some people will freak. Which isn't necessarily good if this is for public consumption.

 

Buy the EB. Buy naked modifiers, including variable advantage, as separate spells.

 

Sorry I couldn't be more help.

 

D