Lims controlling multipower switching

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Lims controlling multipower switching

 

To me, that will come down to the value of being able to adjust and the cost of the talent. If this is an alternative system, the players will have to feel that the "lock in" drawbacks are offset by other benefits (such as cost savings) or they'll pick other options. Even if it's the only magic option, I suppose they could all decide spellcasters aren't worth it.

 

Yeah. One of the things I'm doing in the back of my head is the balance between my alternate magic systems and my primary one. I'm trying to make the secondary ones attractive in one way or another, and a character with that magic can keep up with other types of characters, but trying to leave the flavor of the main magic system as worthwhile.

 

In this case - my normal magic system uses a mana system (End reserve) that is limites (about 60-120 or so end, most spells cost between 3 and 6). Things can be done to get more mana during the day, but normally it recovers when sleeping. The alternate system can get used much more - but it is limited in versitiliy and costs more. So there are trade offs.

[Rapier]

Re: Lims controlling multipower switching

 

I've frequently done a similar thing.

 

Bowey McArrow has an MP with 40 odd arrows, but he only carries around a dozen or two. The MP is built so that each slot has NO charges lim on it. Then the MP itself has a charges lim on it to represent the total number of arrows that Bowey carries around with him.

 

So then we limit the MP with "charges for MP must be pre-determined." It's usually not much of a limitation, and depending on how close homebase is, it lands somewhere between -1/4 and -1/2.

 

So he has X number of slots, but before he leaves his base he has to figure out how many and what type of arrows he's taking with him. If he takes 5 Taser Arrows and runs up against Zombies (who don't take STUN) he's SOL. It really stresses forethought and pre-planning and good research (which sometimes gets left behind by rush-into-the-cannonade type players).

 

I've done similar things with ammo and spell components, which sounds pretty darned close to what you are looking for. Since these can change every day (I'm assuming dawn) I'd give it a -1/4.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Lims controlling multipower switching

 

Tesuji has it right. At least for most of what you want to do. There was a long discussion a while ago about "Slot Switching Limitations" in which I laid out the step-by-step logic behind having all slot switching lims apply only to the slots themselves, and at a reduced value from the normal limitation. For my games I use half of the normal limitation value. For example, Extra Time: 1 Hour would normally be a -3 Lim - it means it takes an hour to activate the power every time. But if the power can be activated instantly, but it takes an hour to switch your MP points to that slot, the limitation is only -1.5. The "half" rule is just my simple rule of thumb, adjust to taste.

 

In this particular case, the limitation is Charges: Slots can only be switched 1 time per day. If the slots could be only *used* once per day, it would be a -2 Limitation. So this lim would be -1, and would be applied to the *slots only*.

 

Question: *Must* the player choose *exactly* three slots each time? Can he chose fewer? Assuming no, the base cost of the slots should be:

 

30 - points maximum in any one slot, 10 points are "fixed", so each slot would be 10/10 + 20/5 = 1 + 4 = 5 points.

 

Then the 1 change/day limit would apply: 5/(1+1) = 2.5 (I like to keep the fractions in this case, rather than rounding them down, otherwise the player is getting several points for free, like one of those "fractional pennies" bank scams.)

 

So, so far your MP looks like this:

 

50 Reserve 50 points

2.5 Slot 1 - 10 minimum, 30 maximum, can only be changed to once per day

2.5 Slot 2 - 10 minimum, 30 maximum, can only be changed to once per day

2.5 Slot 3 - 10 minimum, 30 maximum, can only be changed to once per day

etc., for however many slots you have.

 

The only other thing I haven't included is the bit about how all your powers go away if you take an hour long nap before the day is over. Perhaps this is just a custom limitation (which would apply to the Reserve as well as the Slots), probably no more than a -1/4 "Powers go away if you sleep for more than an hour". And due to the "change once a day limitation" if that hour nap comes before the end of the day, you won't be able to re-select your powers.

 

I'm going to try to track down that "Slot-Switching Limitations" thread.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Lims controlling multipower switching

 

 

I'm going to try to track down that "Slot-Switching Limitations" thread.

 

Cool.

 

Thanks for the input.

 

I've decided that the only can switch slots once per day thing as a lim on the slots, but the "extra time" to set them up on the reserve - because if the character doesn't have the time to activate, he doesn't get anything (not unlike extra time).

 

And yeah the character can choose to have 1 or 5 slots each day, depending on taste. If he has more, he gets more vesitility, if he chooses fewer he gets more power.

 

And I'm doing away with the whole sleep thing. A character's body can only stand the strain of controlling and shaping the magic (to set the slots) once a day. That will be the SFX. The slots are mainteed by background concious thought of the caster - but they take 2 or 3 hours to fade - so being knocekd out, or taking a power nap won't undo the effect.

 

 

I've finally got the exact special effect for the magic system-

Basically the "spells" are constructs of power and shaped Ether (from the Etherial plane) that the caster shapes and forms and wears - the abilities/spells look like things the character is wearing, but made out of semisolid ectoplasm. The effects of any particular slot are tied to what the effect looks like*, and to which of the 7 chakras they are associated with (that also defines thier color).

 

For example a large cloak that looks like flame generates a damage shield, a third eye in teh middle of the forehead gives perception and true sight, there might be a special weapon formed from the stuff.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Lims controlling multipower switching

 

Limitations on pool cost are perfectly book-legal, even if that limtiation is 'extra time to change slots'.

 

However, then you get this:

 

40 60 point MP -1/2 (extra time to change slots)

4 12d6 EB

4 12d6 Flash

 

Total cost 48 (52 if you don't allowthe limtiations on the slots too)

 

Cost for any one power, 60 points.

 

So, assuming that the limtiation is only on changing slots, but once a slot is 'loaded' you can use it as much as you like without limitation, this would give you a substantial point AND utility advantage over a 'straight' power.

 

So, book-legal, but not in my games sunshine.

 

I think a similar cost/benefit analysis should be conducted for any and all limtiations applied to multipower pools. The question is this: does the cost of the power adequately reflect the utility compared to the cost of a single slot?

 

Generally if you cannot apply a limtiation to an individual slot if it was bought on its own I won't allow it to be applied to the pool of a multipower.

 

If it IS, however a limtiation on how you can use the slots so I would allow a limitation on slot cost.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Lims controlling multipower switching

 

So, book-legal, but not in my games sunshine.

 

Yeah. It was exactly this thinking that led me to the structure I choose - the "extra time" thing would affect a similar power that wasn't a multipower the same way.

 

My rule of thumb on things like that - If the lim would affect a normal power, then the lim can go on the pool reserve. Otherwise it hits the slot.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Lims controlling multipower switching

 

Lockout is -1/2. Add another -1/2 for all day and another -1/2 for Must Pick At Start Of Day and call it -1 1/2.

 

Play test it, tweak as necessary.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Lims controlling multipower switching

 

Play test it, tweak as necessary.

 

 

I'm one of those types that likes to have the mechanics fit exactly the SFX down to all the tiniest details before things get started. The main reason I posted - to get ideas I didn't see due to tunnel vision.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Lims controlling multipower switching

 

Limitations on pool cost are perfectly book-legal' date=' even if that limtiation is 'extra time to change slots'.[/quote']

Book-legal, and also probably book-illegal at the same time. I'm sure it says in there somewhere that power constucts must be costed fairly. And as you pointed out, applying slot limitations to the reserve, results in an unfair cost.

 

So book-legal, but clearly wrong! Remember folks: This isn't the Bible. It isn't handed down by God. It isn't infallible.

 

Meanwhile, I'm having trouble finding that old thread I mentioned earlier. I can't think of what other terms to search on. Is there a search-fu master that can help?

 

One way to think of it is that the Reserve is the "raw power" of the MP, and the slot costs just represent the flexibility of it. Since a slot-switching limitation only effects the flexibility, not the raw power, it should only be placed on the slot costs.

 

It also has the added advantage of allowing you to place different limitations on each slot, vis:

 

60 Reserve of magic spells

12m - Everyday-use spell, no limitations on switching to it

8m - Sometime-use spell, -1/2* limitation on switching to it

6m - Difficult spell, -1** limitation on switching to it

4m - Last Resort spell, -2*** limitation on switching to it

 

*Like OAF needed to switch to this slot, (would be -1 if the limitation affected each use of the slot).

**Like Extra Time: 5 Minutes to switch to this one (would be -2 if the limitation affected each use of the slot).

***Like Major Side Effect, Always Occurs, plus Only One switch per day to this slot (would be -4 if the limitation affected each use of the slot).

[Rapier]

Re: Lims controlling multipower switching

 

I would be most tempted to say that a Limitation that affects how often/how you change slots affects the Reserve only.

 

A MP is a group of powers that are closely related. Changing between those powers is not a modifier on the power, its a modifier on the Reserve. Does it have more or an impact than is appropriate?

 

Well, now. That's a whole 'nother kettel of fish. What's good for the goose is cheese for the sammich...or some such thing.

 

As a GM, I believe that the cost limitation (@ -1/4) is not overpowering and effectively reflects the amount of difficulty the limitation will cause the charcter.

 

We all play in different games. All we can do is say how we would handle some ruling in our games within X circumstances and throw it against the wall. Maybe it sticks in your house and not in your neighbours. That's what Hero is all about.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Lims controlling multipower switching

 

 

I'm one of those types that likes to have the mechanics fit exactly the SFX down to all the tiniest details before things get started. The main reason I posted - to get ideas I didn't see due to tunnel vision.

 

If that works for you, I guess. But there is always the risk of being too hands off and theoretical. Many times just stating something out and trying it will very quickly reveal the appropriate course of action.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Lims controlling multipower switching

 

If that works for you' date=' I guess. But there is always the risk of being too hands off and theoretical. Many times just stating something out and trying it will very quickly reveal the appropriate course of action.[/quote']

 

Yeah.

I usually do some playtesting before things get going, but I have a certain level of "done" that I want to hit before I start doing that. I'm pretty persnickity about making things just so.

 

I playtest the stuff for a bit with the wife before I use it in group.

 

And as the game hasn't started quite yet (a couple of weeks) and they won't run into this magic system for a while (it belongs to a very isolated group of people) I have time.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Lims controlling multipower switching

 

I would be most tempted to say that a Limitation that affects how often/how you change slots affects the Reserve only.

 

A MP is a group of powers that are closely related. Changing between those powers is not a modifier on the power, its a modifier on the Reserve. Does it have more or an impact than is appropriate?

 

Well, now. That's a whole 'nother kettel of fish. What's good for the goose is cheese for the sammich...or some such thing.

 

As a GM, I believe that the cost limitation (@ -1/4) is not overpowering and effectively reflects the amount of difficulty the limitation will cause the charcter.

 

Given this, why should anyone in your game ever purchase a power which is not in a Multipower? let's say Charlie and Ed each want a +15/+15 0 END Force Field. Charlie buys a 45 point force field.

 

Ed buys a Multipower with the Force Field and, let's say, 1d6 Aid, +10 to the limit any one characteristic (+1/4), Fades per week (+1 3/4). Then he Limits the pool with "Can only change out of combat (-1/4). He pays 36 for the pool and 4 for each slot, for a total of 44. He then proceeds, out of combat, to raise every characteristic of every PC by 16 points (call that +10 STR, +5 DEX, +8 CON, +8 BOD, +15 INT, +8 EGO, +15 PRE, +30 COM, +8 PD, +8 ED, +8 REC, +1 SPD, +15 STUN and +30 END).

 

 

So Ed pays 1 point less, and gets the force field, which he will always shift the pool to unless he's actively using his Aid, and buffs the entire PC group's stats, for 1 point less cost. Now, you can certainly say you would never allow that Aid power, but even if the second power is completely useless, Ed has saved 1 point over Charlie's build, and it's pretty tough to design an alternative power that will NEVER be useful.

[Rapier]

Re: Lims controlling multipower switching

 

Then he Limits the pool with "Can only change out of combat (-1/4).

 

Out of combat applies to at least about, on average, 23 hours and 59 minutes per day. Because a limitation that does not limit is not worth any points.

[tesuji]

Re: Lims controlling multipower switching

 

Out of combat applies to at least about' date=' on average, 23 hours and 59 minutes per day. [/quote']

 

Which, in my games, is meaningless, for setting lim values.

 

It doesn't matter how many hours per day you cannot use a power, for setting limited power scale but it really matters "how often can you not use the power when you need it?".

 

So for instance a limitation which restricted the power to only work against "supers" would not be based off the "1 guy in a million is a super" but rather on "most of the adversaries he will need the power againstwill be supers." So the value of the lim would not be "well the power is reduced to one millionth of its effectiveness so at lwast -2" but more like "-1/4 because most will be supers and the ones that aren't wont be very serious threats"

 

Similarly, on a Mp the only change out of combat" value would not be based on "loss of most of effectiveness" based on the clock but on how often he would NEED to change the pool in combat. if onbe slot was his primary defense, something he will always want in combat, the value would be -0. on the other hand, if it did include a variety of powers none of which was a "must have" in combat, i can see the avlue being placed at the established -1/2,(see VPP) but applied to slots, not to the pool.

 

 

imo and fmg.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Lims controlling multipower switching

 

Out of combat applies to at least about' date=' on average, 23 hours and 59 minutes per day. Because a limitation that does not limit is not worth any points.[/quote']

 

"Requires 1 turn to change", then. It can be pretty much any limitation if I'm never going to change the slots anyway, can't it? And the whole point is that, if it's less expensive for me to have my power in a Multi with a limit on when the slots can change than to buy the power on its own, why would I not throw it in a Multi with a power I have no intention of using.

 

It could just as easily be a 65 point MP with a 13d6 EB and a 13d6 Flash. 52 + 6 + 6 = 64, less than 65, so I buy the MP and NEVER use the Flash. Give me more than -1/4 and I shave a lot of points. Even at -1/4, I have a shot at getting access to the second power for a cost no greater than the character that has no other slot to potentially access. Objectively, the potential to access a second ability should be worth more than having no potential to access that second ability.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Lims controlling multipower switching

 

I found it!

 

My post within the thread

 

The Whole Thread (Only two pages, I remembered it being longer than that. I guess it just felt that way.)