Requirements for Sainthood

[Zindil]

I am currently running a Turakian Age campaign, and I have been pondering what acts would deem a person worthy of sainthood in a high fantasy game. With priests being able to heal someone very easily and with a more than a few priests being able to resurrect someone, the bar for determining sainthood seems like it should be incredibly high.

 

So what should be the minimum actions necessary for a priest to be declared a saint after death?

 

It seems that resurrecting the dead should be a necessary condition precedent, but it would be far from sufficient. Raising the dead in fantasy game may separate the men from the boys ( and the women from the girls), but it doesn't demonstrate the devotion and faith of one the greatest spiritual icons of all time in a high fantasy world.

 

What would be sufficient to make one a saint in a fantasy religion? Banishing one of the most powerful demons in existence? Hunting down the most powerful necromancer,demon summoner, or lich in a kingdom?

 

Care to share your thoughts?

 

Zindil

[Fitz]

Re: Requirements for Sainthood

 

I would assume that, saints basically being demi-gods, if you prayed to them and you got miracles in return then they'd be likely to be officially recognised (or officially reviled as a heretical demon-spawn, depending on the politics of the time). One advantage of a fantasy milieu when it comes to determining sainthood is that your high priest can just get on the holy telephone, ring up Heaven Inc. and ask if so-and-so has actually qualified.

[Gadodel]

Re: Requirements for Sainthood

 

Off the top of my head, some requirements might be:

1. The individual epitomizes the dogma of their religion.

2. The individual has performed many, well documented deeds that empower their religion.

3. The individual has demonstrated skills or powers beyond the means of the typical practioner of their religion.

4. The individual has recruited many new converts to their religion.

5. The individual has been deemed worthy of the position by their peers.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Requirements for Sainthood

 

It could be argued that anyone capable of using priestly magic is a saint. In such a case, sainthood generally isn't an incredibly uncommon situation.

 

On the other hand, if magic is given out fairly willy-nilly by the gods (ie without too high a level of devotion as a prereq), you'd definitely want something more as your threshold. Maybe having angels/saints as personal friends/mentors/advisors. To boil it down to a cut-and-dry test, if saints or angels have manifested in response to a call for help, the caller will qualify as a saint him or herself.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Requirements for Sainthood

 

Off the top of my head, some requirements might be:

1. The individual epitomizes the dogma of their religion.

2. The individual has performed many, well documented deeds that empower their religion.

3. The individual has demonstrated skills or powers beyond the means of the typical practioner of their religion.

4. The individual has recruited many new converts to their religion.

5. The individual has been deemed worthy of the position by their peers.

 

I like 1, 2, 4 and 5. I think the criteria should be based on how the character has servced the religion, and not on what powers the religion has bestowed on the character. It's not about character points. It's about role playing.

[OddHat]

Re: Requirements for Sainthood

 

On the less cynical side, in a world where the gods actively communicate with their priests, the gods will decide who's a saint and who isn't and let the high priests know. If it's based on anything, it will be how well and faithfully the character has served the god.

 

On the slightly cynical side, the character:

 

1) Must attract a large group of followers during his life who will acclaim him as a saint.

2) These followers must be loyal, politically savvy, and politically important enough to pressure the church to saint the character after his death.

3) The life story spun about the character must conceal any egregiously sinful or antisocial acts he performed later in his career, though a sinful youth is fine, as it makes for a nice redemption story.

4) The church must have a political or other need to reward the followers of the soon to be saint.

[lynnlefey]

Re: Requirements for Sainthood

 

This is my view, and while not necessarily canon, I think it's what you're looking for.

 

See page 212 of Turakian Age, 'Esailes'. My game has no 'saints'. Esailes are made so by decree of the Gods, not by any personal act (although it is their acts of devotion, piety, etc. that the Gods take note of). So, IMO, nothing one does will certainly qualify them for being elevated to an Esaile. Only the whim of the Gods may make one so.

 

Also, this side-steps (in my game) the political power plays within the church (such as the issues with Joan of Arc), and prevents minor Non-High Faith house gods and the like (Such as Bridget, originally an Irish goddess if I remember correct) from being adopted into the church for convenience sake to convert them heathens.

[Zindil]

Re: Requirements for Sainthood

 

This is my view, and while not necessarily canon, I think it's what you're looking for.

 

See page 212 of Turakian Age, 'Esailes'. My game has no 'saints'. Esailes are made so by decree of the Gods, not by any personal act (although it is their acts of devotion, piety, etc. that the Gods take note of). So, IMO, nothing one does will certainly qualify them for being elevated to an Esaile. Only the whim of the Gods may make one so.

 

Also, this side-steps (in my game) the political power plays within the church (such as the issues with Joan of Arc), and prevents minor Non-High Faith house gods and the like (Such as Bridget, originally an Irish goddess if I remember correct) from being adopted into the church for convenience sake to convert them heathens.

 

I appreciate your page number reference, but I was looking to expand upon the sparse information that is given in the Turakian Age book. I find this subject incredibly interesting in light of the miracles most priests can perform in a high fantasy game, so I started wondering what the criteria should be for someone to be a(n) saint (esaile). Like you, I like that in the Turakian Age that the gods decide who will qualify for sainthood, since this avoids political considerations to some degree. However, I figure that Kilbern, being a god of justice, will have certain criteria he will consider. I just don't see him doing it arbitrarily.

[Zindil]

Re: Requirements for Sainthood

 

I like 1' date=' 2, 4 and 5. I think the criteria should be based on how the character has servced the religion, and not on what powers the religion has bestowed on the character. It's not about character points. It's about role playing.[/quote']

 

Hugh,

 

I agree it is not about character points; it is about roleplaying. However, a powerful priest would have gotten most or all of his character points through acts that benefit the faith in some fashion. Slaying evil monsters, stopping tyrants and heretical wizards, and other acts are how fantasy priests tend to become more powerful anyway. So it seems much more likely that a more powerful character is going to be considered instead of weaker ones, since these are the ones that have done the most for the faith. I just wonder what everyone thinks the magnitude of the act(s) should be for a character, npc or pc, to become a demigod-like saint.

[lynnlefey]

Re: Requirements for Sainthood

 

As to your (Zindil's) response to my post... right, got it.

 

I'd think that dying for your beliefs would be all but mandatory to be elevated to Esaile.

 

Serving far beyond the call of duty in all instances.

 

Since it seems thatthe Blue Gods create Essailes, I'd think you should show as many of the traits of all of them as possible to ascend.

 

These qualities might be different between the High Faith and the Hargeshite Faith. I don't see anything about other religions and Essailes, but i don't suppose it's impossible.

 

But, for that matter, Gods may take someone who was not all that spectacular a performer in life and elevate them, just to create questions in the minds of the devoted, and make them HAVE to rely on faith, instead of seeing some kind of reason to it all.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Requirements for Sainthood

 

I agree it is not about character points; it is about roleplaying. However' date=' a powerful priest would have gotten most or all of his character points through acts that benefit the faith in some fashion. Slaying evil monsters, stopping tyrants and heretical wizards, and other acts are how fantasy priests tend to become more powerful anyway. So it seems much more likely that a more powerful character is going to be considered instead of weaker ones, since these are the ones that have done the most for the faith. I just wonder what everyone thinks the magnitude of the act(s) should be for a character, npc or pc, to become a demigod-like saint.[/quote']

 

While an adventuring priest may have done great things for the faith, not every priest need be an adventurer, and it stands to reason that not every saint will be a crusader. How many dragons did St. Francis of Assissi slay? Does the Goddess of Love place a lot of value on her priests' utility in combat? Is slaying the wicked a greater act of faith than a life dedicated to helping the sick and wounded?

[futant]

Re: Requirements for Sainthood

 

Here are some ideas that come to mind.

 

god of love.

 

1) stop a holocaust level event, with out killing anyone and the parties live in peace 10 times longer than you live.

 

2) get the equivalent of George Bush's daugther to marry Osama bin Laden's son, without using magic, and the families have no problems with the union.

 

god of war

 

1) never lose no matter the odds.

 

2) conquer everything

 

3) write a book which becomes an Art of War, or Five Rings.

 

god of nature

 

1) stop something like global warming

 

2) make a desolate land equal in size to the Empty Quarter (i.e. Texas) into the most productive land on earth.

 

god of wealth

 

1) help anyone get stupid rich.

 

2) invent international banking

 

3) understand the US tax code and explain it to anyone and they completely understand it.

 

god of thieving

 

1) design a vault no one can break into except yourself.

 

2) steal the most powerful king in the world's crown during the crowning ceremony while they are putting on his head.

 

3) steal the best gem from the 12 dragon princes, twice.