Few Questions about Sweep, and Combat Skill levels

[Dust Raven]

Re: Few Questions about Sweep, and Combat Skill levels

 

No I'm not. In fact' date=' FREd doesn't even *use* the word "Maneuver" anywhere in the description of PSLs, except in the table where it lists the 2-point PSL applying to "any three maneuvers or tight group".[/quote']

I unfortunately do not have a copy of 5E to reference. If there is text included in 5ER that was not in 5E, I suppose you just have to win based on the technicality of outdated knowledge. Why not just say that PSL weren't included at all in 4E and disallow their use entirely? You seem to be strongly hinting that 5ER is not a valid edition of the rules, which is something I disagree with. If this is your basis of opposition here, them I'll just smile and let you stick with 5E.

 

Although I certainly agree that PSLs should not be used for the fixed penalties of individual Maneuvers, such as Move By.

 

I've always thought of PSLs as applying to any variable penalty:

Range Penalty varies depending on how far the target is.

Size Penalty varies depending on how small the target is.

Hit Location Penalty varies depending on what hit location you're trying to hit.

Throwing Penalty varies depending on the properties of the object being thrown.

And Sweep/Rapid Fire Penalties vary depending on the number of attacks you want to make.

 

Whether the penalty is "outside the characters direct control" is irrelevant, as in the example of the Hit Location Penalty (specifically given as a use for PSLs in the book).

If you notice, only the Sweep/Rapid Fire involves a "random/variable" element complete under the attacker's control. That is hardly variable. The attacker chooses his penalty; it is not applied to him. Hit Location penalties are similar, but are in fact based on size/range penalties. They are just more specialized and thus more predictable.

 

 

Good! I completely missed the Full Phase thing, and had forgotten about the 1/2 DCV. That at least mitigates the problem somewhat.

 

But if all of the Optional Manuevers - including the ones that are not "complete maneuvers" but just "maneuver modifiers" (my terms) - count as "single maneuvers" for which 2-point CSLs can be purchased, then I'll just buy, say five 2-point CSLs with Hipshot. For 10 points, I get +4 OCV and +1 Lightning Reflexes with every single attack I make! And Hipshot applies to both Ranged and HTH! Or for 15 points, I could by them as 3-point CSLs, and put them toward DCV or additional damage. And they can apply to "any three maneuvers or tight group" so how about Hipshot, Snap Shot, and Hurry. Since I can Hipshot, Snap Shot, or Hurry with any maneuver or Attack Power, why would I ever buy any more expensive CSLs, or buy CSLs with any standard maneuver or single power?

And I can buy an HA +1d6 AE Hex, AF10, NND for only 15 points and the only thing that's stopping me if the same thing that'll stop you from abusing the system by buying CSLs with Hipshot.

 

And if you're saying you can buy PSLs with Sweep/Rapid Fire, what's wrong with charging more for it?

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Few Questions about Sweep, and Combat Skill levels

 

I unfortunately do not have a copy of 5E to reference. If there is text included in 5ER that was not in 5E' date=' I suppose you just have to win based on the technicality of outdated knowledge. Why not just say that PSL weren't included at all in 4E and disallow their use entirely? You seem to be strongly hinting that 5ER is not a valid edition of the rules, which is something I disagree with. If this is your basis of opposition here, them I'll just smile and let you stick with 5E.[/quote']

That's not at all what I'm saying! I'm saying the claim that there were no rules changes between 5E and 5ER is (aparently) incorrect. And BTW, there were PSLs in 4E - they were just for Range Penalties only.

 

If you notice, only the Sweep/Rapid Fire involves a "random/variable" element complete under the attacker's control. That is hardly variable. The attacker chooses his penalty; it is not applied to him. Hit Location penalties are similar, but are in fact based on size/range penalties. They are just more specialized and thus more predictable.

There's nothing "random" about Sweep/Rapid Fire penalties. You choose how many attacks you wish to make, just like you choose what hit location to aim at (or whether to aim at a specific one at all). They're both equally predictable, since you get to choose them.

 

And I can buy an HA +1d6 AE Hex, AF10, NND for only 15 points and the only thing that's stopping me if the same thing that'll stop you from abusing the system by buying CSLs with Hipshot.

Completely beside the point. A mere 4 points for +2 with Hipshot is already abusive. And I find a rationale for this claim within the rules themselves: Hipshot is not "a single attack, weapon, or maneuver." It is a Maneuver which can be applied on top of many different other Maneuvers/Weapons/Attacks.

 

And if you're saying you can buy PSLs with Sweep/Rapid Fire, what's wrong with charging more for it?

Nothing at all! That is in fact precisely what I'm advocating! Just like the book says:

 

1.5 points - +1 to offset the Sweep (or Rapid Fire, but not both) OCV penalty for *one* attack or weapon, such as Longswords or Punch or Nerve Strike.

2 points - +1 to offset the Sweep (or Rapid Fire, but not both) OCV penalty for three maneuvers or a tight group, such as Axes/Maces or Martial Disarm, Martial Shove, and Martial Strike.

3 points - +1 to offset the Sweep (or Rapid Fire, but not both) OCV penalty for all maneuvers/weapons/attacks.

 

So if I want to be able to easily Sweep with all my attacks, I have to buy 3-point PSLs (not 2 point CSLs). And they only offset penalties: If I buy 4 of them, I can Sweep three attacks at -0 OCV, but if I only make two attacks, I'm still at -0 OCV. And they can never be applied to DCV or increased damage at all.

 

I think a distinction needs to be made between "complete manuevers," like Strike and Grab, and "maneuver modifiers" like Snap Shot and Hurry. You can just "do a Hurry" on your opponent; you have to Hurry *with* a specific attack.

[Rapier]

Re: Few Questions about Sweep, and Combat Skill levels

 

Nothing at all! That is in fact precisely what I'm advocating! Just like the book says:

 

1.5 points - +1 to offset the Sweep (or Rapid Fire, but not both) OCV penalty for *one* attack or weapon, such as Longswords or Punch or Nerve Strike.

2 points - +1 to offset the Sweep (or Rapid Fire, but not both) OCV penalty for three maneuvers or a tight group, such as Axes/Maces or Martial Disarm, Martial Shove, and Martial Strike.

3 points - +1 to offset the Sweep (or Rapid Fire, but not both) OCV penalty for all maneuvers/weapons/attacks.

 

So if I want to be able to easily Sweep with all my attacks, I have to buy 3-point PSLs (not 2 point CSLs). And they only offset penalties: If I buy 4 of them, I can Sweep three attacks at -0 OCV, but if I only make two attacks, I'm still at -0 OCV. And they can never be applied to DCV or increased damage at all.

 

I think this is where the problem comes in.

 

Sweep is a "maneuver." It's called an "optional combat maneuver." Even though I disagree with it being a maneuver, we are talking rules right now so we'll ignore my feelings on the matter.

 

Sweep has a -2 OCV modifier for each attack after the first. PSLs are specifically prohibited from being used to offset OCV mods for maneuvers:

 

Nor can he buy Penalty Skill Levels to counteract the standard OCV penalty imposed by a combat maneuver (such as the -3 OCV for a Grab By)....

 

Emphasis mine. The -2 OCV mod on Sweep is a Standard OCV Penalty and PSLs cannot be applied. The character must purchase CSLs. Furthermore:

 

Could a character buy Penalty Skill Levels to counteract the standard OCV penalty imposed by a Combat Maneuver, such as the -3 OCV for a Grab By?

 

No. If a character wants to buy PSLs with the attack, he has to define some form of negative OCV modifier they counteract — such as the Range Modifier or Hit Location modifiers. He cannot apply them to, for example, the -3 OCV with Grab By, the -v/5 penalty for Move Through, or the -2 per subsequent attack for Rapid Fire/Sweep. If he wants to counteract the OCV penalty associated with a Combat Maneuver, buy 2-point Combat Skill Levels.

 

It's very clear. PSLs are NOT applicable to Sweep.

 

 

 

The real question is how those CSLs are purchased. I've decided that in my games, like yours (it appears), I would not allow someone to purchase +2 CSLs with Sweep. I would require that a character purchase +2 CSLs for Sweeping with Swords (for instance). Others seem to feel differently and have no more problem with +2 CSLs with Sweep than they do with +2 CSLs with Move Thru.

 

To each his own?

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Few Questions about Sweep, and Combat Skill levels

 

Sweep is a "maneuver." It's called an "optional combat maneuver." Even though I disagree with it being a maneuver' date=' we are talking rules right now so we'll ignore my feelings on the matter.[/quote']

And I agree with you on this. It really doesn't matter what term we use. We can call Sweep a maneuver if we want to, but we need to distinguish between "complete maneuvers" and maneuvers that are only used in conjunction with another maneuver, what I am calling "maneuver modifiers". For example, you Sweep with a Longsword, or you Rapid Fire with your Entangle, or you Hipshot with your Offensive Strike, etc. You can't Sweep with nothing, or Hipshot by itself.

 

Originally Posted by ReFREd, p 66

Nor can he buy Penalty Skill Levels to counteract the standard OCV penalty imposed by a combat maneuver (such as the -3 OCV for a Grab By)....

 

The -2 OCV mod on Sweep is a Standard OCV Penalty and PSLs cannot be applied.

 

That depends on how you interpret the word "standard." IMO, it makes more sense to interpret it to mean "fixed" as in the example given of the -3 OCV for Grab By.

 

As for the answer in the FAQ, I find it easy to ignore, as the FAQs often contain rulings that are nonsensical or poorly thought out, or in some cases flat out contradict the rulebook (if they actually want to contradict something in the book, it should be in the Errata, not in the FAQ). And the FAQ changes from time to time and things get thought out differently.

 

The real question is how those CSLs are purchased. I've decided that in my games, like yours (it appears), I would not allow someone to purchase +2 CSLs with Sweep. I would require that a character purchase +2 CSLs for Sweeping with Swords (for instance).

Exactly! And starting from this point, I see no reason not to allow PSLs as they are more limited than the CSLs. As was mentioned several posts ago, three CSLs with Sweep (of some kind, say with Swords) can allow a two-attack Sweep at +1 OCV, but three PSLs with Sweep, only bring the OCV up to -0. And in the case of the *category* of "Swords", I'd call that a 2-point PSL anyway.

 

And I don't really see what the big deal is: What's the bottom-line difference between a CSL bought with the Limitation "Only to Offset the OCV Penalty for Sweep" and a PSL for the Sweep OCV Penalty? It seems to me if anything, the PSLs are going to be *more* expensive, so you can't say it's abusive.

[SuperKlaus]

Re: Few Questions about Sweep, and Combat Skill levels

 

Being of the opinion that Sweep against a single target is incredibly cool, but too powerful in a game where a target might get KO'd in three hits and too easily empowered via these two-point CSLs, I have been considering officially ruling that all single-target Sweeps follow Sequence Attack rules. All strikes except the last deal half damage, and the last one gets +1 DC or +1 OCV for every preceding hit. With careful adjustment of campaign standard STUNs and DEFs even the half damage strikes could mean something and with the finisher at the end it would really feel like a video game-esque C-C-C-COMBO (I love the aesthetics of most console fighting games). And now with Sweeps dealing quite a bit less damage overall I wouldn't mind letting people buy those two-point CSLs. Only problems now are the chance that single-target Sweeps are actually too weak considering the Full Phase and 1/2 DCV and the strange disconnect with multiple-target Sweeps that do full damage. Thoughts?

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Few Questions about Sweep, and Combat Skill levels

 

Being of the opinion that Sweep against a single target is incredibly cool' date=' but too powerful in a game where a target might get KO'd in three hits and too easily empowered via these two-point CSLs, I have been considering officially ruling that all single-target Sweeps follow Sequence Attack rules. All strikes except the last deal half damage, and the last one gets +1 DC or +1 OCV for every preceding hit. With careful adjustment of campaign standard STUNs and DEFs even the half damage strikes could mean something and with the finisher at the end it would really feel like a video game-esque C-C-C-COMBO (I love the aesthetics of most console fighting games). And now with Sweeps dealing quite a bit less damage overall I wouldn't mind letting people buy those two-point CSLs. Only problems now are the chance that single-target Sweeps are actually too weak considering the Full Phase and 1/2 DCV and the strange disconnect with multiple-target Sweeps that do full damage. Thoughts?[/quote']

 

Sweep/Rapid-Fire vs a single target isn't really a problem. They are notoriously easy to Block and Doge.

[SuperKlaus]

Re: Few Questions about Sweep, and Combat Skill levels

 

Sweep/Rapid-Fire vs a single target isn't really a problem. They are notoriously easy to Block and Doge.

 

True, I guess. I do keep forgetting you can shift all your stuff to DCV while also Dodging. I'm still not entirely comfortable with the possibility of dealing all that damage, though, and OCV does come cheaper than DCV (barring kinda silly limited DCV 5-pointers like "only vs. enemies Sweeping me).

[Dust Raven]

Re: Few Questions about Sweep, and Combat Skill levels

 

Sorry for my tardiness on this. I just got promoted at work and as a result my schedule is massively bass ackwards.

That's not at all what I'm saying! I'm saying the claim that there were no rules changes between 5E and 5ER is (aparently) incorrect. And BTW' date=' there were PSLs in 4E - they were just for Range Penalties only.[/quote']

Ah, I see. Yes, there were definitely some rules changes between 5E and 5ER, though Steve Long would call them "clarifications." In the case of PSLs, I would I have to agree with him though.

 

There's nothing "random" about Sweep/Rapid Fire penalties. You choose how many attacks you wish to make, just like you choose what hit location to aim at (or whether to aim at a specific one at all). They're both equally predictable, since you get to choose them.

Exactly. Nothing random. Completely within the character's control. The difference between Sweep and targeting a Hit Location is that Hit Location is a specialized form of the size/range penalty. It's fixed only because it's standard and predictable, much the same way as the range penalty for hitting someone between 4" and 8" is. And even then, there is some variation because the target need not be human shaped and have the same Hit Location penalty for each location.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Few Questions about Sweep, and Combat Skill levels

 

Exactly. Nothing random. Completely within the character's control. The difference between Sweep and targeting a Hit Location is that Hit Location is a specialized form of the size/range penalty. It's fixed only because it's standard and predictable' date=' much the same way as the range penalty for hitting someone between 4" and 8" is. And even then, there is some variation because the target need not be human shaped and have the same Hit Location penalty for each location.[/quote']

OK. But I still don't see why that difference means that it's OK to allow PSLs with one but not the other. Note that you can also choose to modify the Range penalty that you take simply by choosing to move closer to (or for whatever reason, farther away from) your target. Or you can choose a different target a different distance away.

 

I notice you didn't address my point about the "maneuver modifiers," which is OK, but if they are to be treated like a regular maneuvers that you can buy 2-point (or larger) CSLs for, its abusive since you can apply them on top of *any* maneuver/weapon/attack power.

 

And I repeat myself here: "And I don't really see what the big deal is: What's the bottom-line difference between a CSL bought with the Limitation "Only to Offset the OCV Penalty for Sweep" and a PSL for the Sweep OCV Penalty? It seems to me if anything, the PSLs are going to be *more* expensive, so you can't say it's abusive."

 

In addition, an official published book, The Valdorian Age, uses PSLs in a way that's an even greater violation of the rules in the rulebook: Not only are they applied to non-maneuvers, they don't even apply to OCV! Nor to attacks at all! But rather to the active point penalty of a Power Skill! If an official product can stray this far from the core rules, I can certainly use them for something as close to the rules as multiple-target penalties for Sweep/Rapid Fire. IOW, if I'm bending or breaking the rules, I'm certainly doing it less than the VA.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Few Questions about Sweep, and Combat Skill levels

 

OK. But I still don't see why that difference means that it's OK to allow PSLs with one but not the other. Note that you can also choose to modify the Range penalty that you take simply by choosing to move closer to (or for whatever reason' date=' farther away from) your target. Or you can choose a different target a different distance away.[/quote'] Well, functionally there's not much difference, I'll admit that much. As far as the actual difference between a Sweep penalty and a Range penalty, the target has some say in how far away it is, how much cover it has, how large it is (from the point of view of the attacker), etc. With a Sweep, everything is in control of the attacker. He could perform a Sweep, a regular strike, a Grab, Hold his action, etc. The target or the environment has no say in anything concerning the Sweep and what the Penalty should be. Ultimate it's semantics I suppose, but this is the way I see it, and lucky me it's the same way the author sees it so I have no conflict there.

 

I notice you didn't address my point about the "maneuver modifiers," which is OK, but if they are to be treated like a regular maneuvers that you can buy 2-point (or larger) CSLs for, its abusive since you can apply them on top of *any* maneuver/weapon/attack power.

I didn't feel I needed to. It says Maneuver where I look up Sweep, so it's a Maneuver. I don't care if it's a different kind of Maneuver than Strike or Grab or can be combined with those Maneuvers (or even requires to be combined with another Maneuver), it's still a Maneuver.

 

And I repeat myself here: "And I don't really see what the big deal is: What's the bottom-line difference between a CSL bought with the Limitation "Only to Offset the OCV Penalty for Sweep" and a PSL for the Sweep OCV Penalty? It seems to me if anything, the PSLs are going to be *more* expensive, so you can't say it's abusive."

I don't really see a problem with the cost. It's up to the GM to decide if any individual purchase is abusive or not.

 

In addition, an official published book, The Valdorian Age, uses PSLs in a way that's an even greater violation of the rules in the rulebook: Not only are they applied to non-maneuvers, they don't even apply to OCV! Nor to attacks at all! But rather to the active point penalty of a Power Skill! If an official product can stray this far from the core rules, I can certainly use them for something as close to the rules as multiple-target penalties for Sweep/Rapid Fire. IOW, if I'm bending or breaking the rules, I'm certainly doing it less than the VA.

Yeah Valdorian Age! This kind of thing is just logical to me. PSLs should apply to any penalty outside the control of the character, including Time Penalties and other circumstantial penalties. VA is just a published source that agrees with me on this.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Few Questions about Sweep, and Combat Skill levels

 

I didn't feel I needed to. It says Maneuver where I look up Sweep' date=' so it's a Maneuver. I don't care if it's a different kind of Maneuver than Strike or Grab or can be combined with those Maneuvers (or even requires to be combined with another Maneuver), it's still a Maneuver.[/quote']

Well then, since Hipshot is as much of a manuever as Sweep, you could buy a mere two levels with Hipshot for 4 points and get +1 OCV and +1 Lightning Reflexes with every attack you make except for those that take extra time. Why would anyone take a CSL with any "regular" maneuver? Why would they take an 8-point CSL (all combat) when for the 6 points, you could buy two 3-point CSLs with the three maneuvers, Hipshot, Snap Shot, and one other that you like? The first gives you a single +1 with any maneuver, and the second, for fewer points, gives you one level to counteract the -1 penalty, and another +1, and the benefits of Snap/Hipshot. Or for an even more obvious comparison, two all combat levels cost 16 points. Or you could have 5 levels with Hipshot, Snap Shot, and something else, for 15 points. The first gives you +2 with anything, the second gives you +4 with anything (or +5, and -1 OCV), plus the meneuver benefits.

 

I don't really see a problem with the cost. It's up to the GM to decide if any individual purchase is abusive or not.

Well then what the heck are we arguing about? Do you see the problem with the costs of CSLs on Hipshot, Snap Shot, etc.? I do. I claim that the same problem applies to CSLs with Sweep and Rapid Fire.

 

Yeah Valdorian Age! This kind of thing is just logical to me. PSLs should apply to any penalty outside the control of the character, including Time Penalties and other circumstantial penalties. VA is just a published source that agrees with me on this.

Yes, it is logical and it agrees with both of us. But it isn't about what the character has control over or not. The character has control over whether to make a called shot, and what location to aim for, and the character has control over how many active points of a power to use and wether to take extra time to increase his roll or make a complimentary skill roll, etc.

 

Do you think that my allowing of PSLs with Sweep/Rapid Fire is a "worse" bending/breaking of the rules than the VA's use of them for Active Point Penalties with RSR?

[Dust Raven]

Re: Few Questions about Sweep, and Combat Skill levels

 

Well then' date=' since Hipshot is as much of a manuever as Sweep, you could buy a mere two levels with Hipshot for 4 points and get +1 OCV and +1 Lightning Reflexes [b']with every attack you make[/b] except for those that take extra time. Why would anyone take a CSL with any "regular" maneuver? Why would they take an 8-point CSL (all combat) when for the 6 points, you could buy two 3-point CSLs with the three maneuvers, Hipshot, Snap Shot, and one other that you like? The first gives you a single +1 with any maneuver, and the second, for fewer points, gives you one level to counteract the -1 penalty, and another +1, and the benefits of Snap/Hipshot. Or for an even more obvious comparison, two all combat levels cost 16 points. Or you could have 5 levels with Hipshot, Snap Shot, and something else, for 15 points. The first gives you +2 with anything, the second gives you +4 with anything (or +5, and -1 OCV), plus the meneuver benefits.

 

 

Well then what the heck are we arguing about? Do you see the problem with the costs of CSLs on Hipshot, Snap Shot, etc.? I do. I claim that the same problem applies to CSLs with Sweep and Rapid Fire.

No, I don't have a problem with it at all. In fact, I might even encourage it. I didn't realize why, but you did make me think about it. What I realized is that if you buy a +X with Hipshot, you only get that bonus while performing a Hipshot. While you can combine Hipshot with some other maneuvers (such as a Strike, Grab, etc.) you cannot with other maneuvers like a Move Through, Grab By, Haymaker, Sweep and there are some attacks, due to Limitations, you just can't combine with it. And you also get that DCV penalty while doing so. So no, I don't have a problem with it.

 

 

Do you think that my allowing of PSLs with Sweep/Rapid Fire is a "worse" bending/breaking of the rules than the VA's use of them for Active Point Penalties with RSR?

 

Yes I do. And I can even say this from experience. I allowed "PSLs' with Sweep before we had PSLs. I modified Ranged Skill Levels back in 4th edition, and even called them Penalty Skill Levels and allowed them to apply to any penalty. Along came 5th edition and Steve Long's FAQ response so I thought about it, like I do whenever I see something like that, and ended up agreeing with him. It makes sense and it's fair. I wouldn't allow PSLs to counteract the -2 from Grab because it's an integral part of the Maneuver and there is no way to perform that Maneuver without incurring the penalty, so I won't let it counteract the -2 from Sweep/Rapid Attack for the same reason.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Few Questions about Sweep, and Combat Skill levels

 

No' date=' I don't have a problem with it at all. In fact, I might even encourage it. I didn't realize why, but you did make me think about it. What I realized is that if you buy a +X with Hipshot, you [i']only[/i] get that bonus while performing a Hipshot. While you can combine Hipshot with some other maneuvers (such as a Strike, Grab, etc.) you cannot with other maneuvers like a Move Through, Grab By, Haymaker, Sweep and there are some attacks, due to Limitations, you just can't combine with it. And you also get that DCV penalty while doing so. So no, I don't have a problem with it.

(Actually, it's an OCV penalty, which one level cancels out.)

Yes, you can't hipshot with Move Thru*, Move By*, Grab By*, or any maneuver that requires extra time, or is a purely defensive maneuver, but you can do it with any and all other manuevers or powers you have. If I'm an Energy Projector with an EB, RKA, Entangle, Flash, etc., in your campaign, I'd never buy 2-point levels with just the EB, or even 3-point levels with my Multipower, when I could buy them with Hipshot, Snap Shot, and Set.

 

*Or can you? It doesn't specifically say anywhere that you can't. You're just attacking a little faster at the cost of accuracy. I suppose this could be just as easily applied to moving maneuvers as non-moving ones.

 

Yes I do. And I can even say this from experience. I allowed "PSLs' with Sweep before we had PSLs. I modified Ranged Skill Levels back in 4th edition, and even called them Penalty Skill Levels and allowed them to apply to any penalty. Along came 5th edition and Steve Long's FAQ response so I thought about it, like I do whenever I see something like that, and ended up agreeing with him. It makes sense and it's fair.

Now this just strikes me as wierd. You allow CSLs with Sweep, for 2 points each, which not only can counter the penalties to OCV, but even raise it above the basic +0, and apply to all (HTH) attacks; but you won't allow 3-point PSLs with Sweep, than can only reduce the penalty down to -0. So you once did the same thing as me, but stopped because of Steve's pronouncement. I assume there was some reasoning other than simply being obedient. How was the unfairness introduced by Sweep PSLs?

 

I wouldn't allow PSLs to counteract the -2 from Grab

Neither would I. But I assume we would both allow CSLs with Grab. Say, two 3-point levels with Grab, Move By, and Grab By. This could completely eliminate the DCV penalty on the first two, and halve it on the third.

 

because it's an integral part of the Maneuver and there is no way to perform that Maneuver without incurring the penalty, so I won't let it counteract the -2 from Sweep/Rapid Attack for the same reason.

And if someone is Sweeping with a Grab, the Grab levels would still apply. Right?

[Dust Raven]

Re: Few Questions about Sweep, and Combat Skill levels

 

but stopped because of Steve's pronouncement. I assume there was some reasoning other than simply being obedient

You assume correctly but apparently completely missed the reasoning though you quoted it immediately afterward.

 

"I wouldn't allow PSLs to counteract the -2 from Grab because it's an integral part of the Maneuver and there is no way to perform that Maneuver without incurring the penalty, so I won't let it counteract the -2 from Sweep/Rapid Attack for the same reason."

 

And if someone is Sweeping with a Grab, the Grab levels would still apply. Right?

If someone is Sweeping a Grab, any levels with Sweep or Grab would apply. I have to admit the jury is still out on this for me personally though. I may eventually rule that when using Sweep you may only use the higher of any two CSLs which may apply but they don't add together. Since this has never come up in game for me, ever, I haven't really given it much thought.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Few Questions about Sweep, and Combat Skill levels

 

You assume correctly but apparently completely missed the reasoning though you quoted it immediately afterward.

 

"I wouldn't allow PSLs to counteract the -2 from Grab because it's an integral part of the Maneuver and there is no way to perform that Maneuver without incurring the penalty, so I won't let it counteract the -2 from Sweep/Rapid Attack for the same reason."

Fair enough. We just disagree here. My reasoning is that the -2 DCV from Grab is not really a penalty that could apply to any specified maneuver/weapon/power, since Grab already *is* a manuever. But the cumulative -2 OCV/attack from Sweep is a penalty because it *can* be applied to many other manuevers/weapons/powers. But to each his own.

 

If someone is Sweeping a Grab, any levels with Sweep or Grab would apply. I have to admit the jury is still out on this for me personally though. I may eventually rule that when using Sweep you may only use the higher of any two CSLs which may apply but they don't add together. Since this has never come up in game for me, ever, I haven't really given it much thought.

What about levels with any other manuever or power that someone might Sweep/Rapid Fire with? If a character has levels with Punch and Sweep, can he use them both when performing a Punch-Sweep? Or just whichever one he has more of? Or how about levels with his EB, as well as levels with Rapid Fire?

[Dust Raven]

Re: Few Questions about Sweep, and Combat Skill levels

 

What about levels with any other manuever or power that someone might Sweep/Rapid Fire with? If a character has levels with Punch and Sweep' date=' can he use them both when performing a Punch-Sweep? Or just whichever one he has more of? Or how about levels with his EB, as well as levels with Rapid Fire?[/quote']

 

This is exactly what I said I'm undecided about. It has never, not even once, come up during any game I've run or played in.

 

Levels in Punch + No Levels in Sweep = OK

No Levels in Punch + Levels in Sweep = OK

Levels in Punch + Levels in Sweep = ???

 

As I said, I'm currently leaning toward the "no stacking" option unless both sets of levels can be applied to either maneuver/attack (in which case, they could have put them all together anyway).

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Few Questions about Sweep, and Combat Skill levels

 

This is exactly what I said I'm undecided about.

Fine. I was just curious as to whether you meant just Grab, or just manuevers that have minuses to CV.

 

In case it wasn't already clear, just to summarize my own opinion: I allow all levels to stack, as the rules would normally do. But I don't necessarily allow any number of all types of levels to be taken in the first place (as I would assume most GM's wouldn't). In particular, I don't allow 2-point CSLs with Sweep, Rapid Fire, or any other "maneuver-modifying" maneuver.* I also don't allow PSLs with any fixed penalty, such as the -2 DCV for Grab, or the -1 OCV for Hipshot.** I do allow PSLs with Sweep or Rapid Fire, the only two "manuever-modifying" manuevers that have a variable penalty.* I also allow PSL with placed shots, range penalties, etc., though I may limit how many can be purchased.** And of course, I allow CSLs with "single, whole" manuevers.** And I also allow PSLs for things other than combat maneuvers, like specific skill penalties, such as shown in Valdorian Age.***

 

*These are the ones where I differ with either a FAQ or something in 5ER.

**These are the ones where I am in complete agreement with the rules (or FAQ), AFAIK.

***This one clearly violates the rules, but is specifically allowed in an official published book, and I agree with it.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Few Questions about Sweep, and Combat Skill levels

 

Fine. I was just curious as to whether you meant just Grab' date=' or just manuevers that have minuses to CV.[/quote']

 

Well, it was just maneuvers in general, though I suppose it would have to have a minus to something in order to counter it.