Few Questions about Sweep, and Combat Skill levels

[saiyanslayer]

I wanted to ask a few questions about sweep, and how to offset the penalties:

• With two weapon fighting, can you use more than two attacks with additional -2 penalties and still only take the -2 DCV penalty, or does the penalty grow to 1/2 DCV after two attacks?
  
• To offset the penalties to DCV with sweep, would Penalty Skill Levels work, or would 3 Point CSLs work?
  
• If you applied the Invisible power Effects (+1/2 to sight group) to strength (and assuming the targets' only targeting sense is sight), would the targets affected by the sweep attacks be considered surprised to the attacks?
  
• In the book it said that sweep could use the maneuver move through, but all the other affected targets must be adjacent to the initial target hit. My question is, could the move through be used multiple time against the first target, or the adjacent targets?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Few Questions about Sweep, and Combat Skill levels

 

1) You only take the -2 DCV Penalty

 

2) PSLs cannot be used to offset DCV Penalties (GMs are free to change their minds). Full CSLs (I would personally require the 5pt Level) can.

 

3) No. IPE on STR would mean that your attack is stronger than it appers. But I would never allow it to get surprise to attacks, especially in combat - more than STR is invovled in reaching out to hit someone.

 

4) Not sure on this one, but I would rule No, choose a different target each time.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Few Questions about Sweep, and Combat Skill levels

 

I agree with Ghost-Angel for the most part, but some things to consider:

 

1) I'm okay with the penalty staying at -2 DCV so long as each attack is made using a different limb. The concept of TWF is to use multiple weapons (or for martial artists, strike with multiple limbs). If this is not done, I don't see any reason to grant the reduced penalty.

 

3) You will not get a surprise bonus, but the target may receive a penalty to DCV from being struck by an attack he cannot perceive. Since the attack would be generated from an adjacent hex, I might be willing to give him a PER roll using non-targeting senses to perceive the attack since the attacker himself isn't invisible.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Few Questions about Sweep, and Combat Skill levels

 

i'm fine with the -2 DCV regardless of number of attacks made in a sweep, it's not terribly unbalancing.

[Spidey88]

Re: Few Questions about Sweep, and Combat Skill levels

 

Though I'm sure I'll get the chance to talk about this stuff in person with you, here's some input:

 

2-point CSLs can be purchased for use with Sweep, as per the detailed descriptions in The Ultimate Skill. These are actually too cheap to put limitations on normally, so unless you actually want to be a better shot while using Sweep than while attacking normally, you can at least put on a 0-pt. lim "cannot exceed normal OCV" or some such thing.

 

CSLs could be purchased to combat the DCV penalty, at 5 active points apiece (with a limitation "only to combat said penalty"). 5 point CSLs are the cheapest that can have limitations on them (that have an effect on points, anyway), and are the cheapest that can be applied to overall DCV. Note that without Defense Maneuver IV, these will not be persistent DCV levels.

 

If I'm not mistaken, IPE can potentially be purchased for STR and certain martial maneuvers. If I remember correctly, it's listed as an option for making Redsnake (a martial artist from Vibora Bay) a more powerful hero, to represent fists that move faster than the eye can see. Assuming your GM will allow that (I'll get back to you on that - we can talk about it later), I'd say Sweep would work just fine, at least for foes within easy reach. Without IPE on your movement, it'd just look like you were running up for a move-through or something instead of a conventional punch or strike - so no total surprise there (possibly a slight bonus for throwing them off a bit). Also, you'd have to buy IPE for advantaged HAs and Martial maneuvers for them to work with the STR. Using nontargeting senses to detect HTH attacks of this nature (as Dust Raven suggested) seems like it might be a decent way to preserve the cool flavour of this sort of thing, but reduce the potentially gamebreaking power a bit.

 

I'd think that multiple move-throughs would be kinda screwy against a single target under normal circumstances, without buying some power like "+Xd6 HA, trigger (only after successful move-through)", or something similar with a movement power (which could be cool/incredibly munchkin-y with the right sort of trigger - keep doing move-throughs against every target in sight until you miss or do too much damage to yourself). Just a quick thought. It'd be funny for some speedster that was constantly knocking himself out!

 

Enter: Jack Hammer!

[saiyanslayer]

Re: Few Questions about Sweep, and Combat Skill levels

 

Good points. To get the drop on someone, I think a Invisibility power linked with movement would work better, with Invisibility only able to last a single round.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Few Questions about Sweep, and Combat Skill levels

 

2-point CSLs can be purchased for use with Sweep' date=' as per the detailed descriptions in The Ultimate Skill. These are actually too cheap to put limitations on normally, so unless you actually want to be a [i']better[/i] shot while using Sweep than while attacking normally, you can at least put on a 0-pt. lim "cannot exceed normal OCV" or some such thing.

That sounds like a PSL to me. IFAICT, there is no rule saying you can't buy PSLs for Sweep penalties, only that they can only be used for OCV, not DCV.

 

Or is there some "non-change" about this in 5ER?

[Dust Raven]

Re: Few Questions about Sweep, and Combat Skill levels

 

That sounds like a PSL to me. IFAICT, there is no rule saying you can't buy PSLs for Sweep penalties, only that they can only be used for OCV, not DCV.

 

Or is there some "non-change" about this in 5ER?

I've found nothing that spells it out, but PSLs do only apply to what I'd call circumstantial modifiers. The penalty from a Sweep is inherent in the maneuver, just like the -2 on a Grab. You can't buy PSLs vs the -2 on a Grab, and you cant' buy PSLs versus the penalty on a Sweep or any other maneuver.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Few Questions about Sweep, and Combat Skill levels

 

I've found nothing that spells it out' date=' but PSLs do only apply to what I'd call circumstantial modifiers. The penalty from a Sweep is inherent in the maneuver, just like the -2 on a Grab. You can't buy PSLs vs the -2 on a Grab, and you cant' buy PSLs versus the penalty on a Sweep or any other maneuver.[/quote']

But Sweep isn't a maneuver by itself. You Sweep *with* a maneuver, which can be Strike, Grab, Disarm, Martial Throw, Nerve Strike, etc. With GM permission, you can even Sweep with different maneuvers at once. And yes, all those maneuver penalties still apply, and you can't apply PSLs to counter them, but the Sweep penalties can be countered by the PSLs.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Few Questions about Sweep, and Combat Skill levels

 

But Sweep isn't a maneuver by itself. You Sweep *with* a maneuver' date=' which can be Strike, Grab, Disarm, Martial Throw, Nerve Strike, etc. With GM permission, you can even Sweep with different maneuvers at once. And yes, all those maneuver penalties still apply, and you can't apply PSLs to counter them, but the Sweep penalties can be countered by the PSLs.[/quote']

 

Nope, Sweep is a maneuver. Those penalties don't happen in the circumstance you are making more than one attack in a Phase any more than the penalty for a Grab happens in the circumstance you are grabbing someone. You cannot apply PSLs to them.

 

There is even a specific answer to this on the Q&A board and also in the FAQ that makes it crystal clear. I don't usually like quoting either of these because they can be nothing more than Steve Long's personal interpretation of the rules, but in this case I happen to agree with him.

 

In any case, in the description of PSL, it specifically states PSL cannot be used to counteract the penalties imposed by Combat Maneuvers, and Sweep is listed an a Maneuver. If you want, look at it this way, PSL can counteract anything outside the characters direct control, such as how small a target is, how far away a target is, visibility, etc. but not anything he is choosing to do (attack more than once in a Phase, perform a Grab, etc.).

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Few Questions about Sweep, and Combat Skill levels

 

5er pg 66,

PENALTY SKILL LEVELS

 

A character cannot use PSLs to increase OCV generally, to increase the damage an attack does, or to increase DCV (but see below). He can only use them to reduce or counteract a specific type of negative OCV modifier. A character cannot buy “generic” PSLs that apply to more than one negative OCV modifier; he must specify which penalty a PSL applies against when he buys it. Nor can he buy Penalty Skill Levels to counteract the standard OCV penalty imposed by a Combat Maneuver (such as the -3 OCV for a Grab By), or to counteract the Unfamiliar Weapon penalty (page 382).

5er pg 397,

COMBAT SKILL

LEVELS WITH RAPID

FIRE AND SWEEP

 

A character could buy 2-point CSLs just to improve his OCV with Rapid Fire or Sweep, regardless of what type of weapon or attack he Rapid Fires with. If he buys 3-point CSLs with Rapid Fire (or more expensive CSLs that could apply to Rapid Fire/Sweep), he can use them to increase his OCV and/or DCV with Rapid Fire/Sweep (but note the DCV Checklist on page 372, which in effect halves any Levels applied to DCV).

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Few Questions about Sweep, and Combat Skill levels

 

Those penalties don't happen in the circumstance you are making more than one attack in a Phase any more than the penalty for a Grab happens in the circumstance you are grabbing someone.

I don't understand what you mean by this. I might say, OK, Sweep is a maneuver, but it's not a complete maneuver by itself.

 

GM: "You see five thugs coming toward you."

Player: "I perform a Sweep maneuver."

GM: "Uh, what maneuver are you Sweeping with?"

 

There is even a specific answer to this on the Q&A board and also in the FAQ that makes it crystal clear.

I'll check that out. But I'll ignore it if it doesn't make sense.

 

In any case, in the description of PSL, it specifically states PSL cannot be used to counteract the penalties imposed by Combat Maneuvers, and Sweep is listed an a Maneuver.

I believe it's listed as an *optional* maneuver. It's not an independant maneuver, but more of a "maneuver modifier" if you will, like Set and Brace.

 

If you want, look at it this way, PSL can counteract anything outside the characters direct control, such as how small a target is, how far away a target is, visibility, etc. but not anything he is choosing to do (attack more than once in a Phase, perform a Grab, etc.).

Does it actually say that in 5ER anywhere? I only have FREd, and it's not in there. I'm getting the feeling that this is indeed one of those "non-changes" in 5ER.

 

5er pg 66,

PENALTY SKILL LEVELS

 

Quote:

.... Nor can he buy Penalty Skill Levels to counteract the standard OCV penalty imposed by a Combat Maneuver (such as the -3 OCV for a Grab By), ...

But of course Grab By *is* a complete maneuver by itself, while Sweep isn't. And the OCV penalty for a Grab By is *fixed* (is that what they mean by "standard"?) at -3, while the OCV penalty for Sweep is *variable,* depending on the number of attacks (=individual maneuvers executed) in the Sweep.

 

5er pg 397,

COMBAT SKILL

LEVELS WITH RAPID

FIRE AND SWEEP

 

Quote:

A character could buy 2-point CSLs just to improve his OCV with Rapid Fire or Sweep, regardless of what type of weapon or attack he Rapid Fires with. ....

Unless I'm missing something here, this makes even less sense. For 2 points, I can have a CSL with Sweep with *any* attack? Let's say I buy three of these levels. I then attack a single foe normally and I get no bonus. So instead, I'll Sweep and attack him twice - now I get +1 (-2 for the Sweep, and +3 for the levels). And I can apply these levels to *any* attack! It's like getting Autofire 2 for any weapon or maneuver or power that I make, for only 6 points, and I get an extra +1 OCV included! And according to the passage quoted, if I buy them as 3-point CSL's with Sweep, I can use them for DCV if I want instead, and they still apply to *any* attack I make, so long as I'm Sweeping with that attack! Why would I ever buy any other kind of CSL? And why would I ever make an HtH attack without Sweeping? (And it seems this all applies the same way to ranged attacks and Rapid Fire.)

 

I sure hope I'm missing something here!

 

As I see it, if you buy 1.5-point PSLs with Sweep, they only apply to the OCV penalty, and only with one attack, say "Punch."

If I buy ten of these levels (15 points), I can Sweep-Punch five thugs at no OCV penalty. I take the normal penalties if I Sweep-Grab them. If I Sweep-Punch only two of them, I take no OCV penalty, but I don't get any OCV bonus (6 of the PSLs wouldn't be used). And in any case, I don't ever counter the DCV penalties.

With 2-point PSLs, I could apply it to three different maneuvers (Punch, Grab, Disarm) or a tight group (Blade Weapons). These levels still can never apply to DCV. And they only reduce the penalty to a minimum of -0, they can't grant a bonus to OCV.

3-point PSLs would apply to all attacks. Again, only to OCV, and never to raise it above -0.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Few Questions about Sweep, and Combat Skill levels

 

 

Unless I'm missing something here, this makes even less sense. For 2 points, I can have a CSL with Sweep with *any* attack? Let's say I buy three of these levels. I then attack a single foe normally and I get no bonus. So instead, I'll Sweep and attack him twice - now I get +1 (-2 for the Sweep, and +3 for the levels). And I can apply these levels to *any* attack! It's like getting Autofire 2 for any weapon or maneuver or power that I make, for only 6 points, and I get an extra +1 OCV included! And according to the passage quoted, if I buy them as 3-point CSL's with Sweep, I can use them for DCV if I want instead, and they still apply to *any* attack I make, so long as I'm Sweeping with that attack! Why would I ever buy any other kind of CSL? And why would I ever make an HtH attack without Sweeping? (And it seems this all applies the same way to ranged attacks and Rapid Fire.)

 

I sure hope I'm missing something here!

 

As I see it, if you buy 1.5-point PSLs with Sweep, they only apply to the OCV penalty, and only with one attack, say "Punch."

If I buy ten of these levels (15 points), I can Sweep-Punch five thugs at no OCV penalty. I take the normal penalties if I Sweep-Grab them. If I Sweep-Punch only two of them, I take no OCV penalty, but I don't get any OCV bonus (6 of the PSLs wouldn't be used). And in any case, I don't ever counter the DCV penalties.

With 2-point PSLs, I could apply it to three different maneuvers (Punch, Grab, Disarm) or a tight group (Blade Weapons). These levels still can never apply to DCV. And they only reduce the penalty to a minimum of -0, they can't grant a bonus to OCV.

3-point PSLs would apply to all attacks. Again, only to OCV, and never to raise it above -0.

 

PSL's are not legal for Sweep.

 

CSL's with Sweep can be applied to DCV but note that Sweep itself imposes a 1/2 DCV penalty and the CSL's would get applied before the halving.

 

CSL's with Sweep work exactly like CSL's with Move By when making Multiple Move Bys.

 

The rules note the potential for abuse which is why Sweep is an Optional Maneuver.

 

Nothing confusing about it all IMO.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Few Questions about Sweep, and Combat Skill levels

 

Does it actually say that in 5ER anywhere? I only have FREd' date=' and it's not in there. I'm getting the feeling that this is indeed one of those "non-changes" in 5ER.[/quote']

There's nothing different between Fred and 5ER here. You are just using a different definition of Maneuver than the book does.

 

 

[qupte]I sure hope I'm missing something here!

 

Yep. The thing you are missing is that when Sweeping or Rapid Firing, you are using a Full Phase instead of a Half Phase and you reduce your DCV to 1/2. I would hardly call this getting a bonus attack for "only" 6 points. If anything, it's more similar to the trade off you get when spending 5 points on a Sacrifice Strike (+1 to hit and +4 DC all for only 5 points, and in this case, you only get a -2 to DCV).

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Few Questions about Sweep, and Combat Skill levels

 

PSL's are not legal for Sweep.

 

CSL's with Sweep can be applied to DCV but note that Sweep itself imposes a 1/2 DCV penalty and the CSL's would get applied before the halving.

 

CSL's with Sweep work exactly like CSL's with Move By when making Multiple Move Bys.

 

Assuming a character with 3 CSL's with Sweep:

• The Levels are useless when making a single attack.
  
• If the character uses Sweep to make 2 attacks he has 2 choices:
  
• Use all 3 levels on the 1st attack giving him a net +1 OCV and a -2 OCV on the 2nd attack.
  
• Use 2 Levels on the 1st Attack giving him a net +0 OCV on the 1st attack and a -1 OCV* on the 2nd attack. * Only if the 1st attack hits.
  
• If the same character attempts to use Sweep to make 3 attacks each attack is at -4 OCV. He now can apply the 3 Levels any way he wants; all towards the 1st, some towards the 1st and 2nd or 1 each for all 3.

All of these numbers are not taking into account any additional OCV Penalties like using a Martial Offensive Strike (-2 OCV) which would apply to each attack made as well.

 

The rules note the potential for abuse which is why Sweep is an Optional Maneuver.

 

Nothing confusing about it all IMO.

 

Heh... you might want to reread Sweep there, buddy

 

You're ALMOST right, except with the whole level allocation thingy. You don't allocate seperate levels to various attacks in the sweep. The book states pretty clearly that you work out the OCV from Dex and CSL's first, then apply the sweep penalties.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Few Questions about Sweep, and Combat Skill levels

 

Heh... you might want to reread Sweep there, buddy

 

You're ALMOST right, except with the whole level allocation thingy. You don't allocate seperate levels to various attacks in the sweep. The book states pretty clearly that you work out the OCV from Dex and CSL's first, then apply the sweep penalties.

 

Well, I wasn't home when I posted that.

 

After re-reading the sidebar at the bottom of 5ER pg 397 I see what I missed. However, it also states gives the standard "As always, the GM may change this rule if he finds it unbalancing."

 

Going back to Phil's example of 3 CSL's with Sweep.

 

That's a minimum of 6 points* to get a net +1 OCV with 2 "Strikes" with a 1/2 DCV Penalty.

(* 9 points if you want to be able to put them towards DCV before getting halved.)

 

 

Still seems pretty balanced.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Few Questions about Sweep, and Combat Skill levels

 

Well, I wasn't home when I posted that.

 

After re-reading the sidebar at the bottom of 5ER pg 397 I see what I missed. However, it also states gives the standard "As always, the GM may change this rule if he finds it unbalancing."

 

Going back to Phil's example of 3 CSL's with Sweep.

 

That's a minimum of 6 points* to get a net +1 OCV with 2 "Strikes" with a 1/2 DCV Penalty.

(* 9 points if you want to be able to put them towards DCV before getting halved.)

 

 

Still seems pretty balanced.

Oh, yeah, I agree.

The era of Sweep, Rapid Fire, and Mutiple Power Attacks (better known as 5th Edition onwards) is here... the game is still balanced, but new paradigms have to be taken into consideration. It took me a while to adpat to some of the changes, but I gotz betta.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Few Questions about Sweep, and Combat Skill levels

 

I don't understand what you mean by this. I might say, OK, Sweep is a maneuver, but it's not a complete maneuver by itself.

 

GM: "You see five thugs coming toward you."

Player: "I perform a Sweep maneuver."

GM: "Uh, what maneuver are you Sweeping with?"

 

I'm not anywhere near my books but..

 

Sweep is most definitely a maneuver.

 

What are you performing the Sweep with?

 

My Sword (HKA). My Machine Gun (RKA). My Fist Of the Wind (HA). My Ice Beam (EB).

 

No other maneuver in the book is required to Sweep any of the above powers AFAIK. I do know Sweep is an optional maneuver.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Few Questions about Sweep, and Combat Skill levels

 

PSL's are not legal for Sweep.

That may very well be the case, but it doesn't say so anywhere in FREd. So it seems this is a "change" in 5ER.

 

CSL's with Sweep work exactly like CSL's with Move By when making Multiple Move Bys.

OK. But of course Sweep by definition means you're making multiple attacks, while CSLs with Move By apply even if you're only making one attack.

 

Nothing confusing about it all IMO.

Never said I was confused. I just disagree.

[Rapier]

Re: Few Questions about Sweep, and Combat Skill levels

 

Yes, the book clearly qualifies "Sweep" as a maneuver. I disagree. I like to think it was included as a maneuver because there was no other place to put it.

 

I think I've already said this somewhere recently.

 

I would not allow any character to buy levels (and they would have to be CSLs not PSLs) with Sweep. It is too broad a category. CSLs would have to be purchased for the maneuvers the character would like to Sweep with. If the character would like to practice Sweeping with a particualr maneuver (and I also include weapon etc in this grouping), purchase the CSLs for the attack/maneuver/weapon and limit them: Sweep Only.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Few Questions about Sweep, and Combat Skill levels

 

There's nothing different between Fred and 5ER here. You are just using a different definition of Maneuver than the book does.

No I'm not. In fact, FREd doesn't even *use* the word "Maneuver" anywhere in the description of PSLs, except in the table where it lists the 2-point PSL applying to "any three maneuvers or tight group".

 

Although I certainly agree that PSLs should not be used for the fixed penalties of individual Maneuvers, such as Move By.

 

I've always thought of PSLs as applying to any variable penalty:

Range Penalty varies depending on how far the target is.

Size Penalty varies depending on how small the target is.

Hit Location Penalty varies depending on what hit location you're trying to hit.

Throwing Penalty varies depending on the properties of the object being thrown.

And Sweep/Rapid Fire Penalties vary depending on the number of attacks you want to make.

 

Whether the penalty is "outside the characters direct control" is irrelevent, as in the example of the Hit Location Penalty (specifically given as a use for PSLs in the book).

 

Yep. The thing you are missing is that when Sweeping or Rapid Firing, you are using a Full Phase instead of a Half Phase and you reduce your DCV to 1/2. I would hardly call this getting a bonus attack for "only" 6 points.

Good! I completely missed the Full Phase thing, and had forgotten about the 1/2 DCV. That at least mitigates the problem somewhat.

 

But if all of the Optional Manuevers - including the ones that are not "complete maneuvers" but just "maneuver modifiers" (my terms) - count as "single maneuvers" for which 2-point CSLs can be purchased, then I'll just buy, say five 2-point CSLs with Hipshot. For 10 points, I get +4 OCV and +1 Lightning Reflexes with every single attack I make! And Hipshot applies to both Ranged and HTH! Or for 15 points, I could by them as 3-point CSLs, and put them toward DCV or additional damage. And they can apply to "any three maneuvers or tight group" so how about Hipshot, Snap Shot, and Hurry. Since I can Hipshot, Snap Shot, or Hurry with any maneuver or Attack Power, why would I ever buy any more expensive CSLs, or buy CSLs with any standard maneuver or single power?

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Few Questions about Sweep, and Combat Skill levels

 

That's a minimum of 6 points* to get a net +1 OCV with 2 "Strikes" with a 1/2 DCV Penalty.

(* 9 points if you want to be able to put them towards DCV before getting halved.)

 

Still seems pretty balanced.

That's 6 points for +1 OCV with 2 of *any* HTH manuever (or any ranged manuever using Rapid Fire instead of Sweep).

 

For 5 points, you can get a CSL that gives you +1 with all HTH combat (or all Ranged).

Or for these 6 points, you get the same +1, but for two HTH attacks (or ranged)

 

For 10 points, you can have two CSLs for +2 with all HTH.

For 10 points, you can have +3 with *two* HTH attacks (granted, it takes a full phase and you're 1/2 DCV) or *three* attacks at +1.

 

For 8 points, you can get a +1 with all combat.

For 9 points, as you point out above, you can get +1 with two attacks per phase (using full phase actions at 1/2 DCV), and since these are three-point levels, they can apply to DCV, and they can apply to three different maneuvers, say Sweep, Rapid Fire, (which together cover "all combat") and one other that you like for when you only want to make one attack, for which you'd get +3, only using a 1/2 phase and being at full DCV.

 

For 16 points, you can get +2 with all combat.

For 15 points (five 3-point CSLs with Rapid Fire, Sweep, and Hipshot), you can get +3 with two attacks per phase, or +1 with three attacks per phase, which could apply to either OCV or DCV.

 

For 24 points, you can get +3 with all combat.

For 24 points (eight 3-point CSLs with Rapid Fire, Sweep, and Hipshot), you can get +6 with two attacks per phase, or +4 with three attacks per phase, or +2 with four attacks per phase, or +0 with five attacks per phase, which could apply to either OCV or DCV (full phase, half DCV). Or +7 and +1 Lightning Reflexes with any single attack.

 

Does it still seem pretty balanced?

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Few Questions about Sweep, and Combat Skill levels

 

Sweep is most definitely a maneuver.

 

What are you performing the Sweep with?

 

My Sword (HKA). My Machine Gun (RKA). My Fist Of the Wind (HA). My Ice Beam (EB).

 

No other maneuver in the book is required to Sweep any of the above powers AFAIK. I do know Sweep is an optional maneuver.

Fine. Sweep is a manuever. The sword, the machine gun, etc. are all either Strikes or Other Attacks, which are maneuvers also.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Few Questions about Sweep, and Combat Skill levels

 

 

Does it still seem pretty balanced?

 

Yep.

 

It just looks out of wack because it's all offensively oriented. For the same 24 points as your last example you could have a Martial Artist with 3-4 MA manuevers and 3-4 CSL's with those MA maneuvers. Everything else being equal I'd bet on the Martial Artist.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Few Questions about Sweep, and Combat Skill levels

 

Yes' date=' the book clearly qualifies "Sweep" as a maneuver. I disagree. I like to think it was included as a maneuver because there was no other place to put it.[/quote']

 

If it wasn't a Maneuver, it could easily have been placed with Multiple Power Attacks, which is not a maneuver.