Implicit Mental Senses

[GAZZA]

On another thread, the idea of using a mental power on a target and having them think that the source of that power was someone else was floated. I want to expand on that idea.

 

How does someone with no mental powers or Mental Awareness know not only that they've been attacked, but also who attacked them? I propose that the logical answer to this question is that everyone has a mental Sense that gives them this information (something like Detect Mental Attacker).

 

Assuming that this is fair enough, it opens up some possibilities:

• Invisibility vs Mental Senses makes you "incognito" when using your powers. Invisible Power Effects is how this sort of thing is normally accomplished, but this isn't quite the same thing. If someone with Mental Awareness is in the area when you fire off an Ego Blast, they won't see "you" fire it off, but they'll still see "where" it came from. This is analogous to being Sight Invisible and firing off non-IPE Energy Blasts. (If you also had IPE on your Ego Attack, they'd see nothing at all).
  
• Shapeshift vs Mental Senses with the Imitation added can make it seem as if someone else was the source of a mental attack (this is the idea from the other thread).
  
• Images vs Mental Senses can make it harder to figure out who is attacking you (or not, as you see fit - you don't normally need a PER roll to spot your attacker, but you might reason that it was appropriate if you had Images up). Or alternatively you might be able to make it seem as if someone is being Ego Attacked when in fact they are not.
  
• Darkness vs Mental Senses can make it possible to Area Effect Ego Blast some poor saps without any of them figuring out the source.
  
• Physical Limitation: Mind Blind becomes possible (inability to realise when you've been mentally attacked).

Of course it all hinges on whether or not this "hey, that guy attacked me!" revelation is, in fact, a mental sense, which is sheer speculation on my behalf.

 

If it isn't, then what other possibilities are there to simulate the above ideas? I suppose you can always fall back on Mind Control or Transform, but they seem a bit like a hammer when I'm not sure these are all nails.

[jkwleisemann]

Re: Implicit Mental Senses

 

Personally, I like it. While I understand why - from a game perspective - they made it so that mental powers have this effect, I've never been particularly crazy about it.

 

Though, that said, I believe Ultimate Mentalist has more than a few tips and tricks for this sort of thing too.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Implicit Mental Senses

 

• Invisibility vs Mental Senses makes you "incognito" when using your powers. Invisible Power Effects is how this sort of thing is normally accomplished' date=' but this isn't quite the same thing. If someone with Mental Awareness is in the area when you fire off an Ego Blast, they won't see "you" fire it off, but they'll still see "where" it came from. This is analogous to being Sight Invisible and firing off non-IPE Energy Blasts. (If you also had IPE on your Ego Attack, they'd see nothing at all).[/quote']
  Well, except that they can still see you with regular sight. Mental Awareness does not let you see peoples' minds, it only lets you see mental powers. So even if you weren't Invisible to Mental Senses, the Mentally Aware guy still wouldn't be able to see your mind, though he'd be able to deduce you're there.
   
  Invisibility to the Mental Sense Group would let you be invisible to Mind Scan and Telepathy and senses like "Detect Mind" defined as Mental Senses, and make it hard to target your mind with Mental Powers in general, just like it's hard to hit a normally Invisible target with an EB. Not that this is *necessarily* the way it has to happen. The GM could rule that, if they can see your head with regular sight, they can target your mind, even if they can't "mentally feel" it there, because they know that's where your brain is. (Though I suppose you might fool them if you're an AI or an automaton, or something like that.)
   
  

• Shapeshift vs Mental Senses with the Imitation added can make it seem as if someone else was the source of a mental attack (this is the idea from the other thread).

Not quite. To be more precise, it makes your mind seem like someone else's mind. "What's Jim's mind doing in that guy's body? I happen to know that Jim is a thousand miles away right now."

Images vs Mental Senses can make it harder to figure out who is attacking you.

Right, although they still get the usual PER roll to see through the Image.

Darkness vs Mental Senses can make it possible to Area Effect Ego Blast some poor saps without any of them figuring out the source.

Right, and if you can see through the Darkness yourself (Personal Immunity or something), you can Ego Blast them even without the Area Effect.

Physical Limitation: Mind Blind becomes possible (inability to realise when you've been mentally attacked).

Quite logical! I never thought of that before. (I almost want to call it a Psychological Limitation, since its in the mind.) I'd call it Infrequently, Total, for 15 points (or more if Mental Powers are more common in the setting).

Of course it all hinges on whether or not this "hey, that guy attacked me!" revelation is, in fact, a mental sense, which is sheer speculation on my behalf.

That's what I'd call it.

 

I also allow a limited version of IPE for Mental Powers: for +1/4, you can make a power Invisible to this "everyman" personal Mental Awareness. Note that this only applies to non-Mentally Aware targets. Any Mentally Aware person in the vicinity will be able to sense the power, even if they're the target. I find this fits well with most source material. "Normals" are usually unaware when mental powers are being used on them, but mentallists can tell easily. Note also that this doesn't stop the non-mentallist from eventually figuring out that a mental power has been used on him, or who did it.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Implicit Mental Senses

 

On another thread, the idea of using a mental power on a target and having them think that the source of that power was someone else was floated. I want to expand on that idea.

 

How does someone with no mental powers or Mental Awareness know not only that they've been attacked, but also who attacked them? I propose that the logical answer to this question is that everyone has a mental Sense that gives them this information (something like Detect Mental Attacker).

 

I've always handled this based on the SFX of the power. In general a character knows they've been attacked in the same way they know they've been touched or which way is down. It's not a Sense in game terms but a sense in realistic terms. Depending on the SFX of the attack, it can be a "nagging feeling", a sudden chill, hair suddenly standing up on the back of the neck, "skin crawling", etc. Anyone familiar with mental powers will immediately know what is happening or what has happened, but someone completely unfamiliar may not (in the same way someone who's never tasted an Altoid mint won't have any idea why their mouth feels that funny). As for knowing the attack, it's more about knowing the location of the attacker. It's that feeling like someone is watching you feeling, or perhaps part of the attack leaves such information implanted in the target's mind by default (a possibility with telepathy).

[GAZZA]

Re: Implicit Mental Senses

 

I've always handled this based on the SFX of the power. In general a character knows they've been attacked in the same way they know they've been touched or which way is down. It's not a Sense in game terms but a sense in realistic terms.

(snip!)

Why wouldn't that also be a Sense in game terms? I'm just curious - it's obviously not one of the "classic 5", but what you describe certainly sounds like a sensory phenomenon that you could absolutely write up as a Hero Sense.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Implicit Mental Senses

 

(snip!)

Why wouldn't that also be a Sense in game terms? I'm just curious - it's obviously not one of the "classic 5", but what you describe certainly sounds like a sensory phenomenon that you could absolutely write up as a Hero Sense.

Senses in game terms are used to detect the environment, the world around the character, not the character himself. Thus there is no Detect "up" or other balance sense or any other number of real world bodily senses. The only Senses we have, as far as game mechanics go, are the ability to detect things other than the character.

[GAZZA]

Re: Implicit Mental Senses

 

I see what you mean. I think there was an old Haymaker issue that expanded on Senses and included things like balance and so forth, but you're right - there aren't any core ones.

[Lucius]

Re: Implicit Mental Senses

 

Senses in game terms are used to detect the environment' date=' the world around the character, not the character himself. Thus there is no Detect "up" or other balance sense or any other number of real world bodily senses. The only Senses we have, as far as game mechanics go, are the ability to detect things other than the character.[/quote']

 

Up and Down are not part of the character.

 

If one wanted to build such a sense it would possibly be "Detect Gravity" or at least "Detect Local Gravity Orientation."

 

As for a good reason NOT to make it a standard sense in game terms, though - who wants to let a player buy the ability to Flash it??

 

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Detect Palindromedary

[caris]

Re: Implicit Mental Senses

 

Up and Down are not part of the character.

 

If one wanted to build such a sense it would possibly be "Detect Gravity" or at least "Detect Local Gravity Orientation."

 

As for a good reason NOT to make it a standard sense in game terms, though - who wants to let a player buy the ability to Flash it??

 

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Detect Palindromedary

 

By itself, it is not that useful to flash "sense which direction gravity is pulling", but combine it with a sight flash, and a flier is in even more serious trouble than with just a sight flash.

[caris]

Re: Implicit Mental Senses

 

On another thread, the idea of using a mental power on a target and having them think that the source of that power was someone else was floated. I want to expand on that idea.

 

How does someone with no mental powers or Mental Awareness know not only that they've been attacked, but also who attacked them? I propose that the logical answer to this question is that everyone has a mental Sense that gives them this information (something like Detect Mental Attacker).

 

Assuming that this is fair enough, it opens up some possibilities:

• Invisibility vs Mental Senses makes you "incognito" when using your powers. Invisible Power Effects is how this sort of thing is normally accomplished, but this isn't quite the same thing. If someone with Mental Awareness is in the area when you fire off an Ego Blast, they won't see "you" fire it off, but they'll still see "where" it came from. This is analogous to being Sight Invisible and firing off non-IPE Energy Blasts. (If you also had IPE on your Ego Attack, they'd see nothing at all).
  
• Shapeshift vs Mental Senses with the Imitation added can make it seem as if someone else was the source of a mental attack (this is the idea from the other thread).
  
• Images vs Mental Senses can make it harder to figure out who is attacking you (or not, as you see fit - you don't normally need a PER roll to spot your attacker, but you might reason that it was appropriate if you had Images up). Or alternatively you might be able to make it seem as if someone is being Ego Attacked when in fact they are not.
  
• Darkness vs Mental Senses can make it possible to Area Effect Ego Blast some poor saps without any of them figuring out the source.
  
• Physical Limitation: Mind Blind becomes possible (inability to realise when you've been mentally attacked).

Of course it all hinges on whether or not this "hey, that guy attacked me!" revelation is, in fact, a mental sense, which is sheer speculation on my behalf.

 

If it isn't, then what other possibilities are there to simulate the above ideas? I suppose you can always fall back on Mind Control or Transform, but they seem a bit like a hammer when I'm not sure these are all nails.[/QUote]

 

For making it seeming like the Mental Attack is originating from a source other than the character, personally, I'd go with either a Custom Advantage, or a non-traditional use of Indirect. This would be the same if I wanted any power to appear as if it was not originating from the character, and not have Perception Rolls be an issue. I could see a case for using a non-traditional use of IPE, as well. Images and Mental Illusions are good choices, but not what I'd go with generally.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Implicit Mental Senses

 

Up and Down are not part of the character.

 

If one wanted to build such a sense it would possibly be "Detect Gravity" or at least "Detect Local Gravity Orientation."

 

As for a good reason NOT to make it a standard sense in game terms, though - who wants to let a player buy the ability to Flash it??

 

I disagree, basically because I see this as more of detecting what end of my body my head is on. As far as the gravity thing, people don't sense or detect gravity, they experience it. Gravity is something that affects the character, not some piece of scenery. It falls right in with getting attacked or injured. No one has Detect "I Take BODY Damage" and no one has Detect "Gravity Sucks".

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Implicit Mental Senses

 

As for a good reason NOT to make it a standard sense in game terms' date=' though - who wants to let a player buy the ability to Flash it??[/quote']

Why not? I would. It seems like a perfectly reasonable concept to me.

 

As far as the gravity thing' date=' people don't sense or detect gravity, they experience it. Gravity is something that affects the character, not some piece of scenery.[/quote']

What's the difference?

 

It falls right in with getting attacked or injured. No one has Detect "I Take BODY Damage" and no one has Detect "Gravity Sucks".

Yes they do. We can all tell when we're injured. That's usually part of the Touch sense.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Implicit Mental Senses

 

Yes they do. We can all tell when we're injured. That's usually part of the Touch sense.

 

We in reality can, and it's only part of the "touch" sense in that the "touch" sense is actually a hoard of other highly specialized senses, all of which contribute to sensing injury and the type of injury (pressure, damage, pain, heat/cold, etc.)

 

Characters in the game can sense when they are injured or have been attacked because it's an essential part of the game. It's not a Sense (with a capital S). Same thing with gravity.

[Ganesh]

Re: Implicit Mental Senses

 

Well, I normally use a slightly different take on the normal sense rules, in which Mental is one of the basic four sense groups.

 

It includes the idea that each sense has a "no range" component which cannot be flashed or hidden with darkness, and is why invisible things have a fringe.

 

The Mental Sense in my games is "detect systems" -- it detects things like hunger, balance (which the body has a system to detect, and is different from simple up/down), thoughts, feelings, pain, internal state, and the like. The Chemical sense group detects smells -- the Mental sense group can detect someone smelling something.

 

Most people only have the "no range" component -- they can only detect these things as they apply to themselves, and this is, in fact, why they can tell when someone's using a mental power on them. Something is infringing on their mental state, and it has a "mental flavor" and a direction and whatnot.

 

Mental powers require you to be able to sense your target with a targeting sense. Mind Scan is a ranged, indirect, targeting sense.

 

So yeah...I'd think that mental images or shapeshifting would allow you to change your "mental flavor" so someone detecting you over Mind Scan would think you were someone else. If they could see you, that might give them conflicting information, unless you also have visual images/shapeshift. But it wouldn't change the directionality of the mental sense -- "that guy" is Mind Blasting me, and I think that guy is Psycho Boy...well, maybe he's not Psycho Boy, but it's definitely that guy over there.

 

Darkness to the Mental Sense, I do run, protects you from Mind Scan, and makes it so that mental powers are touch range (because, you know, the "no range" component of a sense cannot be blocked by flash or darkness). However, the Mental Group is effectively a targeting sense, so Darkness, Invisibility, Images, etc. need to be bought accordingly.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Implicit Mental Senses

 

Characters in the game can sense when they are injured or have been attacked because it's an essential part of the game. It's not a Sense (with a capital S). Same thing with gravity.

Why not? IMO, if it acts like a sense, and it quacks like a sense, then it's a Sense.

[caris]

Re: Implicit Mental Senses

 

Characters in the game can sense when they are injured or have been attacked because it's an essential part of the game. It's not a Sense (with a capital S). Same thing with gravity.

 

I have to disagree with you. In the Before Combat chapter (sorry, I only have Fred, someone will have to get a 5er page reference), The Sense Groups section , The Touch Group subsection, the rules addresses damage/pain. A character lacking a sense of touch, while not immune to pain may "think he is perfectly uninjured and healthy, when in fact he's about to collapse due to system shock." That certainly sounds like the ability to "sense" damage is a Sense in the game context of the word. Also given that the lack of a sense of touch applies a penalty to all DEX based skills, including things that may or may not rely directly upon the characters touching another object, to at least consider "balance" as part of the touch group.

[Ganesh]

Re: Implicit Mental Senses

 

To be fair, physical limitations like "mind blind" -- cannot determine when under mental assault -- can exist without a notion of a mental sense group. The effects of the "No Sense of Touch" physical limitation aren't obvious from the rules, they come from understanding of what people with no sense of touch suffer in real life, translated into game terms.

 

In real life, Face Blindness is a problem some people suffer from -- I know a few. They know people are there, they can identify eyes and noses and mouths and chins, they just can't put the image together into a face that they can recognize, no matter how many times they see a person or how well they know them. We don't build a specific "Detect faces" power, ranged, discriminatory. We assume it, like we assume character have two arms, need to breathe air, and are recognizable.

[caris]

Re: Implicit Mental Senses

 

The effects of the "No Sense of Touch" physical limitation aren't obvious from the rules' date=' they come from understanding of what people with no sense of touch suffer in real life, translated into game terms.[/quote']

 

I'm afraid that I am not quite Grokking you here. The effects of not having a sense of touch, no matter the cause (Physical Limitation, Flash or Darkness), are defined in the rules discussing the Touch Sense Group. How is that not obvious from the rules?

[Dust Raven]

Re: Implicit Mental Senses

 

Why not? IMO' date=' if it acts like a sense, and it quacks like a sense, then it's a Sense.[/quote']

 

And if you prefer to play Dictionary Hero, go right ahead. To me, having fun is more important than keeping an anal-retentive strangle hold on the definitions of certain words.

[Ganesh]

Re: Implicit Mental Senses

 

I'm afraid that I am not quite Grokking you here. The effects of not having a sense of touch' date=' no matter the cause (Physical Limitation, Flash or Darkness), are defined in the rules discussing the Touch Sense Group. How is that not obvious from the rules?[/quote']

 

whoops. That will show me to post things without checking an actual book. I'd not remembered that lack of touch was defined under Flash, I'd only remembered it as a physical limitation. My mistake.

 

My point was that "lack of touch" can be defined a limitation, from the effects (-3 to dex-based skills, inability to determine the extent of one's injuries save by inspection -- and I'm taking an EMT course now, so I know just how ineffective that can be in some cases -- etc.) without there needing to be a defined "touch sense."

 

Likewise, there's no "face sense" in HERO...it would be part of sight, but in real life, there's some specialized portions of the brain that actually handle this that can be damaged without any actual sight problems. Face Blindness is a fine physical limitation for a character to have, without there needing to be a "face sense."

 

And an inability to determine when mental powers are being used can easily be defined as a physical limitation, whether or not there's a "Mental Sense."

 

The whole "five senses" model is a relic from Aristotle, and there's not much actual support for it.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Implicit Mental Senses

 

And if you prefer to play Dictionary Hero' date=' go right ahead.[/quote']

I don't, and I'm not. I'm simply allowing for other senses to be Senses in game terms.

 

To me, having fun is more important than keeping an anal-retentive strangle hold on the definitions of certain words.

I completely agree with this statement. That's why I disagreed with your earlier statement that other senses like detection of injury or detection of mental powers being used on you *can't* or *shouldn't* be treated as (capital-S) Senses. It seems to me that you're the one being anal-retentive here. IMO, the HERO System should allow us to build anything we want. It might be fun to play with these other senses in game-mechanical ways: to Flash one's Sense of Touch so they don't feel the pain of injury (as with real-world anesthetics), or to have Darkness against normal people's ability to "feel" mental powers being used on them, or to have a character with Physical Limitation: Face Blind, etc.

 

If you don't want to allow those concepts into your games, that's fine, but don't put "an anal-retentive strangle hold" on the rest of us who are trying to have fun.

 

The whole "five senses" model is a relic from Aristotle' date=' and there's not much actual support for it.[/quote']

Absolutely! I've brought this point up before when this subject has come up. I don't see any reason why there should be "an anal-retentive strangle hold" preventing us from doing interesting things with these other senses in our games. Sense of balance, kinesthesia, etc.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Implicit Mental Senses

 

I have to disagree with you. In the Before Combat chapter (sorry' date=' I only have Fred, someone will have to get a 5er page reference), The Sense Groups section , The Touch Group subsection, the rules addresses damage/pain. A character lacking a sense of touch, while not immune to pain may "think he is perfectly uninjured and healthy, when in fact he's about to collapse due to system shock." That certainly sounds like the ability to "sense" damage is a Sense in the game context of the word. Also given that the lack of a sense of touch applies a penalty to all DEX based skills, including things that may or may not rely directly upon the characters touching another object, to at least consider "balance" as part of the touch group.[/quote']

 

True, but that wouldn't stop you from knowing you were attacked and hit. You'd only be unaware it caused any damage (the attack would be indistinguishable from any attack that simply did no damage), but you'd still be aware an attack occurred.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Implicit Mental Senses

 

I don't, and I'm not. I'm simply allowing for other senses to be Senses in game terms.

 

 

I completely agree with this statement. That's why I disagreed with your earlier statement that other senses like detection of injury or detection of mental powers being used on you *can't* or *shouldn't* be treated as (capital-S) Senses. It seems to me that you're the one being anal-retentive here. IMO, the HERO System should allow us to build anything we want. It might be fun to play with these other senses in game-mechanical ways: to Flash one's Sense of Touch so they don't feel the pain of injury (as with real-world anesthetics), or to have Darkness against normal people's ability to "feel" mental powers being used on them, or to have a character with Physical Limitation: Face Blind, etc.

 

If you don't want to allow those concepts into your games, that's fine, but don't put "an anal-retentive strangle hold" on the rest of us who are trying to have fun.

 

My apologies. It seems I misunderstood your comment.

 

I will agree that the Senses presented by the rules are what is necessary for standard game play, and if your particular campaign requires additional real-world senses be considered Senses for game play, by all means use them. That's gotta be one odd campaign in my opinion though.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Implicit Mental Senses

 

True' date=' but that wouldn't stop you from knowing you were attacked and hit. You'd only be unaware it caused any damage (the attack would be indistinguishable from any attack that simply did no damage), but you'd still be aware an attack occurred.[/quote']

Yes, definitely. We can use ALL of our senses to understand our environment and our own conditions. If you are unable to feel the sensation of an attack affecting you, that doesn't mean you can't see, hear, et al., the attack as it originates and strikes you. And you can certainly tell if you're being knocked back (or down), and you can look down and see the damage to your body or clothing, etc. This is why the cost of IPE is *doubled* if the effects of the attack are also invisible. It takes a lot to make an attack completely undetectable, and it is rightly very expensive.

 

And if, for whatever reason, you can't "feel" incoming mental powers, you can still deduce that a mental power was used on you. etc.

 

I will agree that the Senses presented by the rules are what is necessary for standard game play, and if your particular campaign requires additional real-world senses be considered Senses for game play, by all means use them. That's gotta be one odd campaign in my opinion though.

I'm not sure what you mean by "requires". I don't consider them to be "required," only "allowed". There's nothing odd about my campaign(s), as far as I can recall, no character in my games has ever had a power or disad that made use of these other senses, but they could if they wanted to.

 

What do you do when you or a player comes up with a concept that isn't specifically covered by the rules, such as ones dealing with non-rulebook senses like these that normal people should have? Do you just say, "Well it's not in the rules, so you can't do it at all," or do you come up with a solution that seems reasonable and consistant with the existing rules and say something like, "Well, that seems like a sense that normal people have, even though it isn't one of the 'classic five,' so let's treat it like a Sense in terms of its game mechanics." If the latter, does your campaign become "odd" as a result?

[Dust Raven]

Re: Implicit Mental Senses

 

What do you do when you or a player comes up with a concept that isn't specifically covered by the rules' date=' such as ones dealing with non-rulebook senses like these that normal people should have? Do you just say, "Well it's not in the rules, so you can't do it at all," or do you come up with a solution that seems reasonable and consistant with the existing rules and say something like, "Well, that seems like a sense that normal people have, even though it isn't one of the 'classic five,' so let's treat it like a Sense in terms of its game mechanics." If the latter, does your campaign become "odd" as a result?[/quote']

 

Actually, what I've done and will continue to do is state, if applicable, the mechanics of the power they are trying to build isn't covered by the Sense rules, and then inform them which rules, and thus which Powers, to use to build their ability. Which is exactly what I suggest to everyone, in all circumstances where an existing rule doesn't seem to work. It doesn't mean the rule is wrong or broken or incomplete, it usually means the wrong rule is being used.