Analysis Thread: DCV Oddities

[schir1964]

Characteristics are odd indeed when compared to powers....

 

1) They can be activated (or utilized): STR, INT, and REC

2) They are considered constant in some circumstances: STR, INT, and EGO.

3) They are considered persistent in may ways: DEX, CON, PRE, PD, ED, BODY, and STUN.

 

So here is the oddity....

 

Can a character consciously drop their DEX value to Zero?

If so, then that means their base DCV is Zero, correct?

 

Okay, so now we compare the DCV of the stationary character to the Hex area they are standing in.

 

Why is the character's DCV less than the Hex's DCV at Range?

 

The Range Penalty applies to the attacker's OCV not the DCV of the target, so that has no bearing on the DCV difference.

 

One could rationalize that the Hex area is considered ground surface only and that since the character is oriented on the vertical that it allows for a larger target in general.

 

But for this to be true then a Hex size wall directly behind the character in the same Hex area should have a lower DCV than the character since the character is smaller than the HEX Wall, correct?

 

If we agree that this is correct, then how many people play using this model?

 

To use this model it would mean that flyers that are hovering and shoot straight down trying to hit a hex should hit most of the time since the only penalty involved would be the Range Penalty for OCV.

 

Again, one could rationalize that the DCV comes from air currents causing the shot to waver, but for that to be true, then such penalties should also be applied with shooting horizontally and there Gravity must be compensated for in many SFX. So such rationalizations are too fuzzy to adequately explain the 3 DCV difference between a Hex sized target and a Stationary Character.

 

How many Players/GMs play using this model?

 

Just Some Odd Thoughts

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Psylint]

Re: Analysis Thread: DCV Oddities

 

Um... no.

 

Ever throw a football? Personally, I find it a lot easier to "hit" a stationary receiver who has stopped on the spot, than place the ball where he'll be by the time the ball gets there.

 

I'll grant there's some difficulty comparing the stationary character and the hex sized bull's eye on the wall behind him having a higher DCV, but it's 3. If you can't hit a 3 DCV, you really shouldn't be shooting. You'll probably miss and kill somebody.

 

Further, I would call foul on your premise "a character can consciously drop their DEX to 0" How uncoordinated can you fake? 0 Dex is extremely uncoordinated, having to make a Dex roll at 9- to move at all is a lot more uncoordinated than most folks can do without serious drug intervention (i.e. real world DEX drains).

 

Peace

[braincraft]

Re: Analysis Thread: DCV Oddities

 

I've always thought empty hexes should start at DCV 0, for simplicity if nothing else.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Analysis Thread: DCV Oddities

 

In some campaigns, we have house-ruled that hexes are DCV 0. Worked okay in those games, but be warned that it can make Area Effect attacks significantly more powerful. It's a game balance thing.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Analysis Thread: DCV Oddities

 

Ever throw a football? Personally' date=' I find it a lot easier to "hit" a stationary receiver who has stopped on the spot, than place the ball where he'll be by the time the ball gets there.[/quote']

Rep for the good analogy!

 

If you can't hit a 3 DCV' date=' you really shouldn't be shooting. You'll probably miss and kill somebody.[/quote']

Depends on genre & situation. For heroic games, throw in RMods, maneuver penalties and what have you, and hitting a 3 can be challenging. But for supers I agree, a 3 might as well be a 0 for most purposes.

[schir1964]

Re: Analysis Thread: DCV Oddities

 

Um... no.

 

Ever throw a football? Personally, I find it a lot easier to "hit" a stationary receiver who has stopped on the spot, than place the ball where he'll be by the time the ball gets there.

Um... yes. (8^D)

 

Ever fire a weapon at a target?

 

Any attack that you can't take a direct bead on requires practice to get the feel for hitting a location whether it is moving or not. So throwing a football (or firing morter shells) is not comparable to shooting a handgun or rifle.

 

So unfortunately, your real life analogy falls short of hitting the mark and has no bearing on what I am addressing here.

 

Unfortunately, Hero doesn't distinguish the aiming differences between an attack which is thrown and an attack that uses cross-hairs. Personally, I think there should be additional penalties for attacks that are thrown.

 

I'll grant there's some difficulty comparing the stationary character and the hex sized bull's eye on the wall behind him having a higher DCV' date=' but it's 3. If you can't hit a 3 DCV, you really shouldn't be shooting. You'll probably miss and kill somebody.[/quote']

But let's not sidestep the point.

Why is the larger object have a higher DCV?

It shouldn't, and your response above seems to suggest that you agree. No reason to discuss the abilities of the character's since that has nothing to do with the point being made here.

 

Further' date=' I would call foul on your premise "a character can consciously drop their DEX to 0" How uncoordinated can you fake? 0 Dex is extremely uncoordinated, having to make a Dex roll at 9- to move at all is a lot more uncoordinated than most folks can do without serious drug intervention (i.e. real world DEX drains).[/quote']

You aren't crying foul on my premise, you are crying foul on the rules as presented.

 

1) Characters can choose to lower their primary characteristics voluntarily. (STR, DEX, EGO)

2) Adjacent stationary objects of Human size or greater are considered to be 0 DCV.

 

It is only at range that the Hex DCV oddity appears.

 

I'm not saying that this makes any sense, but it is what the rules allow by default.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Psylint]

Re: Analysis Thread: DCV Oddities

 

Schir...

 

1. Yes, I have fired many rifles, pistols and recently took up skeet shooting. Of them all, skeet shooting is hardest, in no small part, for me, because you are aiming at a space ahead of the target rather than the target itself.

 

2. Even if I grant your contention that throwing a football and shooting are target are categorically different, might throwing a great big ball of fire be more similar to throwing a football than shooting a rifle? It seems, to me, that a great deal of the underlying subject matter whether energy blasts from Champions heroes or fireballs from Fantasy Hero mages has more similarities to throwing footballs than shooting guns. But let's not side step the point.

 

3. There are additional penalties for throwing things as opposed to standard attacks, in the form of a worse range modifier.

 

4. I'm admitting that the 0DCV character and the 3 DCV wall have issues. As you note later on, I have a hard time with "intentional clumsiness" I really don't think humans can will themselves to be so uncoordinated that they need a Dex roll to walk, aim an attack etc. I also diverge on your understanding of limiting STR to 0; choosing not to exert is entirely different from assuming a zero point. But if my understanding is wrong, please provide the citation so I can learn.

 

But overall, I think it really is Mountain out of Mole hill.

 

Relative to my friend bigdamnhero, my only point, coming from a recent shooting trip with some amateurs is that it's darned dangerous to be in a shooting group with someone who can't hit what they aim at. If you can't hit a barn door (literally in this case) please don't shoot in my vicinity.

 

Peace

[schir1964]

Re: Analysis Thread: DCV Oddities

 

2. Even if I grant your contention that throwing a football and shooting are target are categorically different' date=' might throwing a great big ball of fire be more similar to throwing a football than shooting a rifle?[/quote']

Throwing a football, shooting a rifle, and throwing a fireball are all very different from one another.

 

First, you are mixing a real world examples with a fantasy example.

Second, to be real world comparable a flamethrower would be about close as you can get, thus throwing flame is very different since it would most likely have area effect coverage. And as I understand it, you don't really aim one any more than you aim a mortar shell. You just point in the direction you want to fire and go from there. In other words, you won't be trying to hit a bullseye of a target like you would a rifle, you would just try to hit the target period.

 

BTW: You don't have to agree that aiming these real world examples are different. I'm just saying that in my view they are and any discussion would have to keep that in mind. If you think they are all the same, hey great, but from my viewpoint, it will make difference when evaluating the oddity I presented here.

 

It seems' date=' to me, that a great deal of the underlying subject matter whether energy blasts from Champions heroes or fireballs from Fantasy Hero mages has more similarities to throwing footballs than shooting guns. But let's not side step the point.[/quote']

Agreed. Using real world examples usually has snags when trying to prove something in the Hero system. The system isn't geared to simulate the real world accurately.

 

3. There are additional penalties for throwing things as opposed to standard attacks' date=' in the form of a worse range modifier. [/quote']

Well, I also know that certain optional penalties can be imposed such as whether the object is aerodynamic, bulky and so forth. But I those were options, not the default?

 

4. I'm admitting that the 0DCV character and the 3 DCV wall have issues. As you note later on' date=' I have a hard time with "intentional clumsiness" I really don't think humans can will themselves to be so uncoordinated that they need a Dex roll to walk, aim an attack etc. I also diverge on your understanding of limiting STR to 0; choosing not to exert is entirely different from assuming a zero point. But if my understanding is wrong, please provide the citation so I can learn.[/quote']

Well, here's the snag, and why I said at the outset that Characteristics are odd things, 10 STR grants 2d6 Normal Damage as an attack, in order to only do a maximum of 1d6 Normal Damage (barring combat maneuvers), the character must only use 5 STR. This doesn't mean that their capacity for for Lifting or to do 2d6 Damage has been permanently removed, it just means if the character voluntarily never chooses to use more than 5 STR, they will never lift more 50 Kgs or cause more than 1d6 Damage. So by choice they have reduced the derivatives of STR.

 

The rules also give a concrete example of lowering one's EGO willingly so that another character may use Mindlink on them. Without this choice, Mindlink would rarely work if ever.

 

We also have the oddball Figured Stat SPD which can be lowered below the norm voluntarily. Why is it the oddball? Ever consider lowering PD or ED willingly? I'm not sure the rules allow for that last one. I'll have to double check.

 

If a character has vertigo, they get dizzy and become clumsy when view things from great heights. Does this mean the character suddenly lost motor reflexes or has a breakdown in the muscles themselves. It would seem in this case, it is a perception problem. So if the mind can trick the body into being clumsy in real world, why can't a character willingly become clumsy in a game world of the GM's design?

 

Remember, I'm not saying it makes any sense, just that the rules seem to allow it by default.

 

But overall' date=' I think it really is Mountain out of Mole hill.[/quote']

Who's making a mountain?

Did suggest that this oddity in DCV is some kind of game disruptive mechanic that needs to be gotten rid of? No.

I simply asked why was DCV of a Full Sized HEX greater than a Stationary Character that is about half the size?

No mountain that I can see. (8^D)

 

Relative to my friend bigdamnhero' date=' my only point, coming from a recent shooting trip with some amateurs is that it's darned dangerous to be in a shooting group with someone who can't hit what they aim at. If you can't hit a barn door (literally in this case) please don't shoot in my vicinity.[/quote']

I don't dismiss nor disagree with this.

 

But if you can hit a normal character at certain range reliably, why is hitting a Hex Sized door less reliable?

And that was my point, which you agreed with. So we're good.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Dust Raven]

Re: Analysis Thread: DCV Oddities

 

Can a character consciously drop their DEX value to Zero?

If so, then that means their base DCV is Zero, correct?

 

Okay, so now we compare the DCV of the stationary character to the Hex area they are standing in.

 

Why is the character's DCV less than the Hex's DCV at Range?

 

Well, the correct, official, legal answer is "because it is." Why it is is and what it should be is a matter of heated and prolonged debate.

 

Additional questions you may ask is that is a normal human, laying unconscious or Entangled, has a DCV of 0, why does a character currently using 4 levels of Shrinking/Growth (perhaps Persistent) in the same circumstances alo 0? Shouldn't a stationary 60ft tall giant be easier to hit than a stationary 6ft tall human, and he be easier than a 6" tall faerie? Guess not...

[schir1964]

Re: Analysis Thread: DCV Oddities

 

Additional questions you may ask is that is a normal human' date=' laying unconscious or Entangled, has a DCV of 0, why does a character currently using 4 levels of Shrinking/Growth (perhaps Persistent) in the same circumstances alo 0? Shouldn't a stationary 60ft tall giant be easier to hit than a stationary 6ft tall human, and he be easier than a 6" tall faerie? Guess not...[/quote']

While technically a character with active Shrinking is considered 0 DCV when unconscious, they are not considered 0 DCV for a Normal Sized human due to the size Penalty one receives for smaller targets. It's listed in the Combat Section. I forget the exact wording but if th e target is considered half normal Human Size then they get a -2 Penalty for hitting the target and so forth.

 

As for the Growth, I agree and that's why I addressed it and a possible solution for a more consistent method in the Size Stat document.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Dust Raven]

Re: Analysis Thread: DCV Oddities

 

While technically a character with active Shrinking is considered 0 DCV when unconscious' date=' they are not considered 0 DCV for a Normal Sized human due to the size Penalty one receives for smaller targets. It's listed in the Combat Section. I forget the exact wording but if th e target is considered half normal Human Size then they get a -2 Penalty for hitting the target and so forth.[/quote']

 

Actually no, according to Steve Long, an unconscious character is 0 DCV. Period. No size modifiers are taken into account. Ever. Due this this there have been several attempts at adding a SIZE Characteristic or some other method of making different sized character actually different sized in respect to the difficulty in hitting them.

[schir1964]

Re: Analysis Thread: DCV Oddities

 

Actually no' date=' according to Steve Long, an unconscious character is 0 DCV. Period. No size modifiers are taken into account. Ever. Due this this there have been several attempts at adding a SIZE Characteristic or some other method of making different sized character actually different sized in respect to the difficulty in hitting them.[/quote']

Well, if that is the case, then I agree, and again fall back on the Size Stat document to correct at least this aspect of DCV concerning different size characters.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Talon]

Re: Analysis Thread: DCV Oddities

 

In older versions of Champions there was a comment about it being easier to hit a wall behind a target than am arbitrary spot of ground...I always assumed that (plus game balance for AOE attacks) was the rationale.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Analysis Thread: DCV Oddities

 

Actually no' date=' according to Steve Long, an unconscious character is 0 DCV. Period. No size modifiers are taken into account. Ever.[/quote']

Although the attacker may get an OCV bonus for the target's size; 5ER p375.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Analysis Thread: DCV Oddities

 

Although the attacker may get an OCV bonus for the target's size; 5ER p375.

Officially, those only apply to inanimate objects and not characters. Optionally, feel free to do whatever you feel like.

 

A word of caution: the reason they don't apply to characters is because there is no method of buying a permanent increase in DCV (as in an increase that applied in situations where the character is forced to be 0 DCV due to combat modifiers such as unconscious). In all fairness, a character which is more difficult to hit could have to spend points on that... only there just is no way to do so (officially).