Change Environment: Personal Immunity or Envirnomental Movement

[Rubric]

Context: I'm working on an ice-based character who uses Change Environment [CE] to create a sheet of ice. The book (5E unrevised) is inconsistent about the effects of ice -- under the CE power description, it provides an example of ice that causes a movement penalty and requires a dex roll or breakfall roll whenever a character moves. In the rules section on the environment, it says ice may cause an OCV penalty. Both examples seem reasonable.

 

 

My CE will basically combine those effects. I'll use -3" movement, -4 to Dex skills, and -1 or -2 to OCV. (I don't see any non-hackish way to create a "fall down" effect -- I guess that will be GM discretion.) If this seems like a stiffer penalty than regular ice, then think of it as "rough ice" or "uneven ice". That is, it appears with slopes and crests that make it extremely treacherous to walk on it, let alone perform any sort of kung fu kick.

 

So now, it would be pretty silly for me to be falling down all the time due to my own power. The first question is: do I need to pay for Personal Immunity (+1/4), or do I need Environmental Movement (1 to 4 points)? The CE is about 60 active points, because it has a large radius and several penalties. That means PI will cost about 12 points, and will have the unfortunate side-effect of increasing the END cost by 1.

 

12 points + extra END seems like a lot to me, especially for an ability that grants me NO BENEFIT on regular (natural) ice. Environmental Movement, on the other hand, will let me walk on regular ice with no penalty, so why not this ice? Would you say I need both of these abilities if I want to walk on ALL ice?

 

Second question: how do other characters avoid my sheet of ice? Can teammates spend a couple experience points on Environmental Movement so the ice doesn't affect them? (And I guess the follow up question is, if they can do it, why can't I?)

[Talon]

Re: Change Environment: Personal Immunity or Envirnomental Movement

 

Change Environment says that if it affects a characteristic roll, the character is required to make at least one roll when entering the field of effect -- so if your power involves a penalty to DEX rolls, characters will have to make a DEX roll or fall down when they enter it (or if they are in the effect when you activate it).

 

In a supers game where you are paying points for the power, I would require Personal Immunity rather than Environmental Movement. I would also require Environmental Movement to walk on all ice (or some other power; if you have Running based on creating an ice slide, for example, I would probably just give you Environmental Movement for free in most supers games).

 

12 points seems like a lot...except that in every fight you might be doing this, and ignoring the penalties that everyone else incurs is a big deal.

 

I wouldn't let Environmental Movement negate the power unless you took a limitation to that effect (I would have it reduce the penalties, and I would make that clear to the player taking the power so they don't feel cheated -- he could take the same thing if he didn't want to go with PI). To make other characters immune to the effect would involve some sort of Power setup...and I'd be more curious about the concept justification for it.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Change Environment: Personal Immunity or Envirnomental Movement

 

Talon has some good points here. In addition, keep in mind that your ice power is different from the ice power the official Ice Walking ability is designed to counter. Ice Walking will basically help prevent you from falling down on ice, but would not prevent you from being slowed down or reduce/eliminate the OCV penalty. For that, you would have to buy a more expensive version of Environment Movement to account for all the penalties of your particular ice sheet power. Or just spend the 12 points on Personal Immunity. If you want to get fancy, you can also buy a Naked/Limited Advantage to put 0 END on the PI only so you don't need to spend the extra END (bringing the total cost to 18 points, personally, I just suck up the END or spend those 6 point on REC).

[Sean Waters]

Re: Change Environment: Personal Immunity or Envirnomental Movement

 

I'd allow you to buy PI or environmental movement (ice), but then ANYONE with environmental movement (ice) would be able to circumvent your power. The extra points you spend on PI would therefore have real utility.

 

Also I'd consider allowing a limtiation on this power as it only affects surfaces people stand on, possibly like the '2D' limtiation for AoE.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Change Environment: Personal Immunity or Envirnomental Movement

 

As for making sure your team mates are not affected, either EM (ice) if that is what you go for, or the GM might allow you to buy a 'selective' advantage or you need to make your PI Useable By Others.

[Rubric]

Re: Change Environment: Personal Immunity or Envirnomental Movement

 

the character is required to make at least one roll when entering the field of effect

 

Thanks for the reply. That solves the falling down problem. Is this a rule, or is it your interpretation as GM? I don't have my book at the moment, although I don't recall reading anything about an automatic Dex roll upon entering.

 

(or some other power; if you have Running based on creating an ice slide, for example, I would probably just give you Environmental Movement for free in most supers games).

 

No, I don't have the running/sliding ability, as I'm trying not to be TOO much of a Marvel Iceman ripoff.

 

However, if you would give me free EM for a Running power, why not for a Personal Immunity to my CE?

 

12 points seems like a lot...except that in every fight you might be doing this, and ignoring the penalties that everyone else incurs is a big deal.

 

Hmmm, yes that seems to be the main issue. It's essentially an area-effect power, and the general rule is that you need PI to avoid those. The problem is that the special effects of the PI are identical to the special effects of the Environmental Movement.

 

To make other characters immune to the effect would involve some sort of Power setup...and I'd be more curious about the concept justification for it.

 

Well, the justification is that it is regular ice, not special mutant ice or alien ice or something. Possible reasons why others could walk on it: (1) experience with working on ice, (2) cleats or spikes on your feet, (3) extraordinary mass that breaks the ice with each step, etc.

[Rubric]

Re: Change Environment: Personal Immunity or Envirnomental Movement

 

I'd allow you to buy PI or environmental movement (ice)' date=' but then ANYONE with environmental movement (ice) would be able to circumvent your power. The extra points you spend on PI would therefore have real utility.[/quote']

 

That's fine with me. I don't have a problem with others being able to avoid the penalty. As mentioned, it's supposed to be regular ice.

 

Also I'd consider allowing a limtiation on this power as it only affects surfaces people stand on, possibly like the '2D' limtiation for AoE.

 

Yes, that's included already. I just didn't mention it. I believe the CE example in the book includes a -1/4 limitation for "Only affects targets standing on the ground."

 

As for making sure your team mates are not affected, either EM (ice) if that is what you go for, or the GM might allow you to buy a 'selective' advantage or you need to make your PI Useable By Others.

 

Selective and/or Useable by others is exactly what I'm trying to avoid. My character can create a sheet of ice on the ground -- that's it. There's no reason I should have the ability to control who can walk on it and who can't. It's up to others (teammates or villians) to provide their own capability to walk on it.

[Talon]

Re: Change Environment: Personal Immunity or Envirnomental Movement

 

Thanks for the reply. That solves the falling down problem. Is this a rule' date=' or is it your interpretation as GM? I don't have my book at the moment, although I don't recall reading anything about an automatic Dex roll upon entering. [/quote']

 

It's in 5ER (page 136, left column about where the "Weather Alteration" example beings).

 

However, if you would give me free EM for a Running power, why not for a Personal Immunity to my CE?

 

Paying points for a power that gives you the ability to run across ice seems like a good reason to let you, well, run across ice. I fully admit this is a subjective call -- by the book, there's no reason to do so. Just giving my perspective.

 

OTOH, if you /want/ EM to stop the power completely, I would give a Limitation for that (probably -1/4); use those points to buy EM and you are all set!

 

The idea of buying "enhanced" EM is also a good one -- since it just consists of PSLs, buy enough of those to cover all the penalties your CE creates, add 3" of Running, done. You could even buy the whole thing Usable By Others, OIF (cleats) and hand them out to buddies.

 

Well, the justification is that it is regular ice, not special mutant ice or alien ice or something. Possible reasons why others could walk on it: (1) experience with working on ice, (2) cleats or spikes on your feet, (3) extraordinary mass that breaks the ice with each step, etc.

 

Good answer. I like the idea of the character handing out cleats (with his logo on them, of course!), but that's just me.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Change Environment: Personal Immunity or Envirnomental Movement

 

Being terribly logical about all of this, even something like environmental movement, which is a talent that technically applies 1-3 PSls to offset DCV and skill penalties whilst in a given environment should not necessarily make you completely 'safe' on ice. It specifically would not offset penalties to OCV if a GM decided to apply them, and technically will not offset movement penalties`. Also -4 to DEX rolls is outside the range of the talent to completly overcome.

 

You can build the power with a limitation (-1/4, or possibly even -1/2, depending on the campaign) that EM (Ice) negates all penalties.

 

For a marginally more realistic feel to it, you could go with a -1/4 EM offsets penalties, clinging negates them (technically a power that creates ice, even with the CE power, is not subject to EM (Ice) even though it is logical that it should eb so), and then buy yourself clinging (only on ice, natural or created by powers) so that you can actually adhere to ice (perhaps you melt and freeze the ice as you put a foot down).

 

Then there are two levels of 'defence' - EM (partial) or clinging (total).

 

The other thing that an ice patch should probably do is increase KB. You can do that (kinda) with a KBR supress or drain but that doesn't affect people who do not have KBR. I'd let you buy it as part of CE: for 5 points you get +1" KB for every 5 damage classes in an attack that hits anyone standing on the ice: someone standing on your ice patch hot by a 12d6 EB would take (BODY+2)-2d6 KB.

[Rubric]

Re: Change Environment: Personal Immunity or Envirnomental Movement

 

OTOH' date=' if you /want/ EM to stop the power completely, I would give a Limitation for that (probably -1/4); use those points to buy EM and you are all set![/quote']

 

You can build the power with a limitation (-1/4' date=' or possibly even -1/2, depending on the campaign) that EM (Ice) negates all penalties.[/quote']

 

 

Okay, I'm liking this idea. The method for avoiding the penalty is built in to the power, and is obvious to anyone who wants to pay a few points for the "defense". I imagine three tiers of Change Environment:

 

1. Base power with no modifiers: Nobody is immune, neither me nor anybody else. Even if you have a relevant Environmental Move ability, you still have penalties (possibly reduced penalties if your GM is friendly, but penalties should not be completely negated).

 

2. EC w/ Personal Immunity: I ignore the penalties, but everyone else suffers them, regardless of their other abilities. However, I have no automatic defense against natural conditions that mimic my CE.

 

3. EC w/ limitation "Not vs. appropriate Environmental Movement": Now anybody with the appropriate "defense" is completely immune. The GM understands that I will definitely buy EM:Ice, and will encourage teammates to do the same. Likewise, I understand that the GM will sometimes throw villains at me who have EM.

 

So then, the question becomes what is the appropriate limitation. Let's factor the following things into the limitation:

a. Penalties apply only to characters touching the ground (5E provides an example where this limitation is -1/4 by itself).

b. Penalties do not apply to anyone with EM: Ice

c. Penalties do not apply to characters/vehicles with extraordinary mass

d. Not mentioned earlier, but penalties probably shouldn't apply to Desolid either (unless that's already build into the Desolid power?)

 

Regarding ( above, I would like to see it as Max EM (4 points) negates the penalties completely, while lesser levels of EM provide pro rata reduction. Likewise, regarding ©, I would probably define 60 active points of Density Increase as the amount of mass needed to completely negate penalties, with lower levels of DI allowing pro rata reduction (the requirement might be too high, though). Also, I mentioned "experience working on ice" and "cleats/spikes" earlier -- I think these are special effects of EM:Ice and are included in that ability. They are not separate powers in their own right.

 

Of course, all of the above notes are GM discretion, but naturally I would provide "helpful suggestions" to the GM. So, what's the value of the limitation? I'm thinking -1/2.

 

 

 

For a marginally more realistic feel to it, you could go with a -1/4 EM offsets penalties, clinging negates them (technically a power that creates ice, even with the CE power, is not subject to EM (Ice) even though it is logical that it should eb so), and then buy yourself clinging (only on ice, natural or created by powers) so that you can actually adhere to ice (perhaps you melt and freeze the ice as you put a foot down).

 

Then there are two levels of 'defence' - EM (partial) or clinging (total).

 

Interesting. It's funny you mention clinging, because I'm also thinking about how to throw the "sheet of ice" onto a vertical surface to affect clinging and climbing. CE can reduce climbing skill, but not Clinging. It's an ability that would be so rarely useful, that I wouldn't want to pay many points for it. Maybe it should be a power trick with the CE.

 

The other thing that an ice patch should probably do is increase KB. You can do that (kinda) with a KBR supress or drain but that doesn't affect people who do not have KBR. I'd let you buy it as part of CE: for 5 points you get +1" KB for every 5 damage classes in an attack that hits anyone standing on the ice: someone standing on your ice patch hot by a 12d6 EB would take (BODY+2)-2d6 KB.

 

Ahh, nice idea. That might be worth reducing the radius by a notch in order to squeeze in the extra five points. The only problem is that my newly-purchased HeroDesigner is going to have conniptions if I try to do that.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Change Environment: Personal Immunity or Envirnomental Movement

 

No problems with Hero Designer - just add the extra points as a custom adder

[pinecone]

Re: Change Environment: Personal Immunity or Envirnomental Movement

 

Context: I'm working on an ice-based character who uses Change Environment [CE] to create a sheet of ice. The book (5E unrevised) is inconsistent about the effects of ice -- under the CE power description, it provides an example of ice that causes a movement penalty and requires a dex roll or breakfall roll whenever a character moves. In the rules section on the environment, it says ice may cause an OCV penalty. Both examples seem reasonable.

 

 

My CE will basically combine those effects. I'll use -3" movement, -4 to Dex skills, and -1 or -2 to OCV. (I don't see any non-hackish way to create a "fall down" effect -- I guess that will be GM discretion.) If this seems like a stiffer penalty than regular ice, then think of it as "rough ice" or "uneven ice". That is, it appears with slopes and crests that make it extremely treacherous to walk on it, let alone perform any sort of kung fu kick.

 

So now, it would be pretty silly for me to be falling down all the time due to my own power. The first question is: do I need to pay for Personal Immunity (+1/4), or do I need Environmental Movement (1 to 4 points)? The CE is about 60 active points, because it has a large radius and several penalties. That means PI will cost about 12 points, and will have the unfortunate side-effect of increasing the END cost by 1.

 

12 points + extra END seems like a lot to me, especially for an ability that grants me NO BENEFIT on regular (natural) ice. Environmental Movement, on the other hand, will let me walk on regular ice with no penalty, so why not this ice? Would you say I need both of these abilities if I want to walk on ALL ice?

 

Second question: how do other characters avoid my sheet of ice? Can teammates spend a couple experience points on Environmental Movement so the ice doesn't affect them? (And I guess the follow up question is, if they can do it, why can't I?)

 

I'd be happy with Enviro-move, and your buddys could buy it too...others may disagree, and they are not wrong if they do.....the more high power th CE the more likely that Pers immune would be demanded (too raise cost equal to utility)

[Rubric]

Re: Change Environment: Personal Immunity or Envirnomental Movement

 

So then, the question becomes what is the appropriate limitation. Let's factor the following things into the limitation:

a. Penalties apply only to characters touching the ground (5E provides an example where this limitation is -1/4 by itself).

b. Penalties do not apply to anyone with EM: Ice

c. Penalties do not apply to characters/vehicles with extraordinary mass

d. Not mentioned earlier, but penalties probably shouldn't apply to Desolid either (unless that's already build into the Desolid power?)

 

...

 

So, what's the value of the limitation? I'm thinking -1/2.

 

On further reflection, I think the Desolid power probably includes innate immunity to this type of Change Environment. Does anyone disagree? I've never seen a ghost slip on ice, and I've never seen a cloud of vapor get stuck in mud, for example.

 

If you were the GM, would you make a Desolid character pay extra points (like some variant of Flight) in order to ignore penalties for ground-based CE's and/or similar natural effects? Conversely, would you allow the player with the CE to take a limitation that it doesn't work on Desolids?

 

Also, is the above set of limitations still worth -1/2 even without the Desolid part?

[Talon]

Re: Change Environment: Personal Immunity or Envirnomental Movement

 

I would not apply such penalties to a Desolid character (unless, of course, the special effect of the CE was the "weakness" defined for that instance of Desol).

[Psylint]

Re: Change Environment: Personal Immunity or Envirnomental Movement

 

I'd be surprised that a GM would allow all of these stacked effects from 1 application of a large aoe continuous power, but moving on...

 

1. Desolid, as a desolidified entity has no contact with solid stuff, like ice, a desolid character would not be affected by an ice sheet. So, no Desolid means they are not affected by anything other than powers with affects desolid and the limited powers chosen at character creation. If one of those selected powers was ice, then perhaps, but if not, no. Lim. power. doesn't affect desolid isn't a limitation, because it does not normally affect desolids. Affects desolid is a 1/2 advantage.

 

2. Personally, I"d require a limited power: environmental movement at -0. You're trying to replicate real ice, and EM ice negates the penalties of real ice, even if in this specific instance you are creating "super ice on steroids"

 

3. Lim. power only affects targets on the ground -1/4. Lim. power does not affect targets with EM ice, or targets of mass to volume ratios greater than 4:1. Depends on the campaign. In general, EM ice is a rare talent, as are sufficiently massive targets.

 

Against any non-super this attack is devastating (your average cop or agent is reduced to a less than 30% to hit, assuming he's not scrambling up from the ice, and slowed to half his movement). Against ground based supers it's still quite powerful.

 

While the sum of the limitations may indeed be greater than 1/4, I'm not convinced that it's worth 1/2.

 

Peace

[Rubric]

Re: Change Environment: Personal Immunity or Envirnomental Movement

 

I'd be surprised that a GM would allow all of these stacked effects from 1 application of a large aoe continuous power' date=' but moving on...[/quote']

 

It's pretty much straight out of the book, though. Plus, it's a 60-70 active point power, so it should have a significant effect.

 

If the GM is concerned about it, there's also a "Long Lasting" adder, which is only 5 points. Ice should last as long as environmental conditions would dictate, so I maybe I should take that adder.

 

 

Against any non-super this attack is devastating (your average cop or agent is reduced to a less than 30% to hit, assuming he's not scrambling up from the ice, and slowed to half his movement). Against ground based supers it's still quite powerful.

 

I don't really see it as a problem. Any 60 point power can deal with agents, whether it's a 6d6 area effect blast to stun them, or just a 30 point force field so they can't hurt you. To me, this CE doesn't seem all that powerful vs. supers.

 

While the sum of the limitations may indeed be greater than 1/4, I'm not convinced that it's worth 1/2.

 

Well, I agree that EM:Ice and great mass are rare, and I can't really use the Desolid angle. It's clearly more than 1/4 though. I need to add something else to get it up to 1/2. For clarity, let me just break it out as two separate limitations:

-1/4: (Only affects targets standing on the ground) -- from the book

-1/4: (Doesn't affect targets with EM:Ice, great mass, or _____ ).

 

Note: I also have an additional -1/4 applied to the whole power framework based on increasing the endurance cost (sometimes massively increasing it) when it's too dry and there is no nearby water source.

 

Other possible limitations to fill in the above blank:

1. No range? I can't remember if CE has range by default, but I assume it does. Still, a 16" radius makes this a relatively insignificant limitation, so it wouldn't get a whole -1/4 to itself. Doesn't really fit my concept however, although the concept is still subject to change.

2. OCV penalty only applies to HtH attacks

3. Doesn't affect characters with ice sliding/running powers (even if they don't have EM:Ice, which they probably should have). In fact, I could see a GM actually increasing the movement rate of an ice slider, or at least reducing his endurance cost.

4. Destroyed by heat-based attacks?

5. what else?

 

Or am I just trying to get free points back by "defining" natural properties of ice?

[Psylint]

Re: Change Environment: Personal Immunity or Envirnomental Movement

 

Rubric:

 

1. Actually, it's not straight out of the book, it incorporates 3 separate Change Environments and puts it into 1 Change Environment. Personally, I see a lot of merit in the construction. A patch of ice should probably impose an OCV penalty, penalty to Dex skills, and inhibit horizontal movement (though perhaps not with a DEX roll, after all, until you fall down, you get great velocity running on ice).

 

As for the power of the effect, I think you are underestimating the value of a -4 Dex roll just to stand up or move. Against any low DEX, melee based character (traditional bricks for example) this becomes a very effective entangle, that bypasses their strength (in STR). And while it is a 60+ Active point cost power, I have a sneaking suspicion that the power will be incorporated in a power frame work for massive Real Cost savings. Again, I've no problem with that (I think tight character concepts should be rewarded, but that's an aside).

 

If a 6d6 energy blast stuns you're average agent, then your agents are too fragile, in my not so humble opinion.

 

 

There's always a conflict between special effects and game effects. The easiest way to get the other 1/4 is to add limited range to it for 1/4. I doubt you'd ever need the 300" of range the power naturally has, but that is at least "book legal." The 16" radius is itself rather concerning, as it would encompass the majority of any battlespace I would like project in a heroes game. Do you really need to be able to lay down Football field sized patches of ice?

 

Natural properties of Ice?

 

folks can go either way on this. Either you can build for every possible interaction of the sfx or you can just lump it. YMMV, but modeling all of the potential interactions, is in my view a pain. Heard tell that that was part of what Ultimate Energy Projector was about, but I've yet to get my copy.

 

I'm not sure your calculations are right either, the combination of 3 effects + 16" radius seems to me to be a little light for 60 Active points, unless you were triple counting the initial CE (that is to say you calculated based on the initial CE providing -1" movement and -1 OCV and -1 Dex rolls).

 

Peace

[Talon]

Re: Change Environment: Personal Immunity or Envirnomental Movement

 

Rubric:

 

1. Actually, it's not straight out of the book, it incorporates 3 separate Change Environments and puts it into 1 Change Environment.

 

This is in the book; you just need the Multiple Combat Effects adder (5ER p.137).

[Psylint]

Re: Change Environment: Personal Immunity or Envirnomental Movement

 

I, as they say, stand corrected. Darn that know it all FRED, anyways.

 

Peace