New Mechanic: Manipulation (Campaign Rules)

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New Mechanic: Manipulation (Campaign Rules)

 

As for the Well World examples, don't hold your breath Hugh. (8^D)

 

I'm currently reading another book series and there are at least 6 Well World Novels, all of which I no longer have. I'll have to go purchase them again. So it might be a bit before I can get an actual quote from any of the books. I might have to get them from a used book store or library since the last time I looked, I didn't see any of the Well World books in the book store.

 

I'm just looking for examples of what you expect to simulate using this new mechanic. Without seeing what you're trying to do, I have a tough time assessing how your proposal performs. I don't need excerpts from the books - show us something you would envision this being used for in-game and how your mechanics would simulate it.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New Mechanic: Manipulation (Campaign Rules)

 

I think this could be made to work as a campaign-specific use of Microscopic Touch. However, I also see other options, none of which imply a Manipulation Skill, such as:

 

- Microscopic as an adder to a non-sense ability, in this case being STR to allow that STR to pick up microscopic items.

 

- Transdimensional applied to STR to allow your STR to be "used against" the Microverse. [if EDM allows you to enter the microverse, it stands to reason that TD allows you to affect the microverse without actually moving there]

 

- A new advantage, "MicroScale", which mimics MegaScale, but goes the other way. Start with +1/4 to allow 1/1,000 scale, and add another +1/4 for each step further down the "Microscopic" sense adder. A further -1/4 would be required to make this Scalable.

 

Considering that you find this information a surprise I won't bother to reply to prior post.

 

So basically, you're not looking for ways to approach and accomplish the example you provided, you can't provide any examples of what you actually want it to do or how you envision your system achieving those objectives and you want us to help you with that. Have I got it now?

[Trebuchet]

Re: New Mechanic: Manipulation (Campaign Rules)

 

From my original post:

 

"This construct adds a guideline on how one may add detail where manipulation is concerned. Those who are happy with the system with regard to manipulation need not apply."

In other words, people with honest criticisms of your proposed mechanic need not apply. Gotcha.

[Trebuchet]

Re: New Mechanic: Manipulation (Campaign Rules)

 

So basically' date=' you're not looking for ways to approach and accomplish the example you provided, you can't provide any examples of what you actually want it to do or how you envision your system achieving those objectives and you want us to help you with that. Have I got it now? [/quote']"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Hugh Nielson again."

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New Mechanic: Manipulation (Campaign Rules)

 

In other words' date=' people with honest criticisms of your proposed mechanic need not apply. Gotcha. [/quote']

 

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Hugh Nielson again."

 

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Trebuchet again."

 

Is there anything on the thread we don't agree on?

[schir1964]

Re: New Mechanic: Manipulation (Campaign Rules)

 

So basically' date=' you're not looking for ways to approach and accomplish the example you provided, you can't provide any examples of what you actually want it to do or how you envision your system achieving those objectives and you want us to help you with that. Have I got it now? [/quote']

Yes, I can. But you asked for an actual example from the books, so I was going to make sure that example was accurate.

 

But since you asked in the other post for just examples here are some of the creatures I remember distinctly although they may not be 100% accurate:

Centaurs (Pretty much from mythology physically)

Gelatinous Cubes (although I'm not sure if they were just animals or an intelligent race)

Cow-like Creatures (Actual race)

Lizard Creatures (Actual Race)

Plant Creatures (Actual Race)

Naga-like Creatures (Actual Race)

Tree Creatures (Actual Race)

Mermaid-like Creatures (Actual Race)

Ant-like Creatures (Actual Race)

Jellyfish-like Creatures (Actual Race)

Pterodactyl-like Creatures (Actual Race)

Pan-like Creatures that ride Pegasus Steeds - Have ability to generate electrical shocks like electric eels.

Human-sized Beavers (Actual Race)

Worm-like creatures (Don't remember if they were just animals or an actual race)

Stone Creatures (Actual Race)

Will-o-wisp like Creatures (Not sure if animal or actual race)

Piranha-like Creatures (Not sure if animal or actual race)

Machine Creatures (Actual Race)

Human-sized Bat Creatures (Actual Race)

Human Creatures (Actual Race)

 

These are just some of the ones I remember from the Southern Hemisphere (780 Hexes) which are carbon based life forms.

 

The Northern Hemisphere contains another 780 Hexes that contain silicon-based life forms and/or other non-carbon based life forms. I haven't touched on these since it would be very difficult for a PC to become one of these and still have role in the campaign.

 

So as you can see, there is huge variety of PC-Possible creatures which I intend to build from scratch. Some will be easy, some more difficult, but one thing is for sure, manipulation of objects plays a big role on the Well World since technology may only be a 1 Hex away. Wars have raged at times on the Well World where different races have worked together.

 

I have a clear idea of how to handle manipulation, I just needed help with integration and more importantly the number crunching to see if Manipulation is priced right or out of whack.

 

If you don't want to help, that's fine.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: New Mechanic: Manipulation (Campaign Rules)

 

Perhaps I am asking too much from you Hugh or Trebuchet.

 

Maybe the only way you two could help is to actually read the books. But I've already gotten some help from other posters on this thread. Not sure why you two have such a problem with giving help.

 

If you don't want to help, or think you are incapable of helping with the current information available, then stop posting to this thread.

 

I won't bother responding to any more of your derisive or belittling posts. It is as simple as that.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New Mechanic: Manipulation (Campaign Rules)

 

If you want help with a Manipulation mechanic, I (probably Treb) need specific examples of HOW YOU ENVISION IT WORKING.

 

This is not "there are a whole bunch of different creatures, boy howdy!" It means providing the following:

 

- actual, concrete examples of tasks that a character might wish or need to attempt, at various levels of difficulty

 

- the likelihood that a character with simple base levels of manipulation could accomplish such a task under your system - is that a reasonable probability of success?

 

- for routine tasks, the added degree of difficulty for a character whose ability to manipulate is below the norm, the mechanic used to reduce his likelihood of success to that level, and the benefit to the character (ie character points saved) by "selling back" this much manipulatory ability

 

- for difficult tasks (ranging right up to "impossible even well above the default), the manner in which you would expect a character to purchase the ability to accomplish such a task (right up to your "grab a specific cell from a target" and "rearrange the target's DNA" levels), and an assessment of whether that cost seems reasonable in light of the overall campaign structure.

 

If you are confident your system works, get your players to write up characters. If everyone can manage impossible feats of manipulation, you likely priced it too low. If no one can, you probably priced it too high. If a proportion in line with the source material can, then you priced it about right.

 

Your unwillingness to provide examples of the system in action leaves us with an inability to assess the system and offer any suggestions for improvement, even if we believed this were the best of all possible approaches.

[schir1964]

Re: New Mechanic: Manipulation (Campaign Rules)

 

If you want help with a Manipulation mechanic, I (probably Treb) need specific examples of HOW YOU ENVISION IT WORKING.

 

This is not "there are a whole bunch of different creatures, boy howdy!" It means providing the following:

 

- actual, concrete examples of tasks that a character might wish or need to attempt, at various levels of difficulty

 

- the likelihood that a character with simple base levels of manipulation could accomplish such a task under your system - is that a reasonable probability of success?

 

- for routine tasks, the added degree of difficulty for a character whose ability to manipulate is below the norm, the mechanic used to reduce his likelihood of success to that level, and the benefit to the character (ie character points saved) by "selling back" this much manipulatory ability

 

- for difficult tasks (ranging right up to "impossible even well above the default), the manner in which you would expect a character to purchase the ability to accomplish such a task (right up to your "grab a specific cell from a target" and "rearrange the target's DNA" levels), and an assessment of whether that cost seems reasonable in light of the overall campaign structure.

 

If you are confident your system works, get your players to write up characters. If everyone can manage impossible feats of manipulation, you likely priced it too low. If no one can, you probably priced it too high. If a proportion in line with the source material can, then you priced it about right.

 

Your unwillingness to provide examples of the system in action leaves us with an inability to assess the system and offer any suggestions for improvement, even if we believed this were the best of all possible approaches.

It is not an "unwillingness to provide" examples. The novels have very specific descriptions as to what different races are capable of doing. I'm not going to "guess" based on memory when I can reference the material directly. That will take time.

 

Now you can either wait for me to get time to get specific references to be accurate for the campaign, as I said I would, or you can go on demanding examples now and not get it and presume that I'm not serious. Your choice.

 

The idea I've presented is specifically designed so that it can handle different levels of manipulation regardless of size or manner of limbs.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Re: New Mechanic: Manipulation (Campaign Rules)

 

The idea I've presented is specifically designed so that it can handle different levels of manipulation regardless of size or manner of limbs.

 

- Christopher Mullins

 

And yet on each and every portion of your idea, there is no bonus or penalty that is always going to be a bonus, or is always going to be a penalty. I haven't gotten into the size issues; there should definitely be issues in manipulating items equal to your own size!!

 

The only portion of your idea that's complete is the '5 pts: +1 to Manipulation Rolls.' Okay, that sounds like ... a 5-point skill level, 'group of related skills', a mechanic that's in the rules, so I guess that's okay. If you want it to be just with manipulation of objects, I'd say it's a 2-point level -- so long as the way you're manipulating the object isn't covered by other skills, or the effect of the manipulation isn't a Power (such as Transform). If you want a race to be able to manipulate incredibly microscopic (or macroscopic) items, I'd say ... well, get Microscopic on your Touch for the first, and loads of strength for the second; big objects tend to be heavy, though that isn't an absolute rule. And then perhaps a level or two of your 'Manipulation Mechanic'.

[schir1964]

Re: New Mechanic: Manipulation (Campaign Rules)

 

And yet on each and every portion of your idea' date=' there is no bonus or penalty that is [i']always[/i] going to be a bonus, or is always going to be a penalty.

From original post:

 

Manipulation Modifiers

Size Penalty: Object size will affect how well it can be manipulated. Size in this context will refer to relative size in comparison to the character's size. The GM determines how much larger or smaller the object is compared to the character and may use the following chart to get the Size Based penalty.

 

Smaller Object

-0 Penalty (1x through 1/256x) Note: 1 = Size Of Character

-1 Penalty (1/512x)

-2 Penalty (1/1024x)

-4 Penalty (1/2048x)

-8 Penalty (1/4096x)

And so forth...

 

Larger Object

-0 Penalty (1x through 2x) Note: 1 = Size Of Character

-1 Penalty (2x)

-2 Penalty (4x)

-4 Penalty (8x)

-8 Penalty (16x)

And so forth...

 

Seems like these penalties are going to remain the same regardless of your current size. If for some reason the character's size changes, then the penalties will applied appropriately for the enw size and will remain the same until the character changes his size again.

 

Not sure what you are talking about with penalties changing. Perhaps you can clarify.

 

I haven't gotten into the size issues; there should definitely be issues in manipulating items equal to your own size!!

Addendum: Statement removed for being argumentative. My apologies.

 

Now as far as the character getting a penalty for manipulating a non-resisting replica of the character, I'm not sure how you are coming to that conclusion. Now if you are talking about a non-replica, then there might be penalties for shape, texture, and so forth.

 

Not sure where the problem is, perhaps you could clarify.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Re: New Mechanic: Manipulation (Campaign Rules)

 

Yes' date=' you technically have since you said, "each and every portion of your idea".[/quote']

 

Objection, your Honor. Defense is being argumentative.

 

...

 

Oh, wait, that's right -- we can't accuse you of being a snot, only the other way around. Never mind.

 

 

Now as far as the character getting a penalty for manipulating a non-resisting replica of the character, I'm not sure how you are coming to that conclusion. Now if you are talking about a non-replica, then there might be penalties for shape, texture, and so forth.

 

Not sure where the problem is, perhaps you could clarify.

 

Never done much lifting, have you, Chris?

 

Ever lifted a 'non-resisting replica' of yourself, or anything of your own size that was within your weight limit? A person's 'no problems' limit runs to about 1/4 their size. Anything above that is difficult, regardless of shape, texture, and so forth.

 

Anyhow.

 

Never mind; sorry to have disturbed your world. You aren't looking for assistance in creating or clarifying a new idea; you haven't been, from the beginning. You're just looking for a pat on the back, and are resisting virtually every suggestion given to you. As a consequence, arguing with you is ... well, there's a great line for this, from Lois McMaster Bujold:

 

"Never argue with a pedant. It frustrates you, and irritates the pedant."

 

I'll just reset my ignore file.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New Mechanic: Manipulation (Campaign Rules)

 

From original post:

 

Manipulation Modifiers

Size Penalty: Object size will affect how well it can be manipulated. Size in this context will refer to relative size in comparison to the character's size. The GM determines how much larger or smaller the object is compared to the character and may use the following chart to get the Size Based penalty.

 

Smaller Object

-0 Penalty (1x through 1/256x) Note: 1 = Size Of Character

 

A double mattress is smaller than a human. Try manipulating one up to the top of a loft bed. I did this a couple of weeks ago - I was not working without a penalty! It would have been a lot easier working with a screw, which I also had to do to assemble the bed.

 

Of course, weight also has something to do with this, as does surface area, whether the object tends to fold up or stick to itself, and numerous other factors. I'm more and more inclined to go with a GM judgement overall penalty or bonus. But then, I don't need to know the bonus or penalty for manipulating a virus-sized object.

[Trebuchet]

Re: New Mechanic: Manipulation (Campaign Rules)

 

Never mind; sorry to have disturbed your world. You aren't looking for assistance in creating or clarifying a new idea; you haven't been, from the beginning. You're just looking for a pat on the back, and are resisting virtually every suggestion given to you. As a consequence, arguing with you is ... well, there's a great line for this, from Lois McMaster Bujold:

 

"Never argue with a pedant. It frustrates you, and irritates the pedant."

QFT.

 

That's excellent advice. It'll be a long time before I consider reading another one of Mullins' proposed mechanics. Why waste my time when he's not actually interested in criticism?

[schir1964]

Re: New Mechanic: Manipulation (Campaign Rules)

 

Objection' date=' your Honor. Defense is being argumentative.[/quote']

Yes, you are right. I'm sorry, I shouldn't have pointed that out since I knew what your trying to say. Again, my apologies, I don't need to resort to that. I'll remove the statement.

 

Oh' date=' wait, that's right -- we can't accuse [i']you[/i] of being a snot, only the other way around. Never mind.

Two wrongs don't make a right. If you do this again, I'll report your post.

 

Never done much lifting, have you, Chris?

 

Ever lifted a 'non-resisting replica' of yourself, or anything of your own size that was within your weight limit? A person's 'no problems' limit runs to about 1/4 their size. Anything above that is difficult, regardless of shape, texture, and so forth.

Lifting (how much weight a person can handle without penalty) is handled by STR in the Hero System, not manipulation. So you example is in reference to STR not the Manipulation mechanic.

 

A suitcase that is filled with lead and is more than 1/4 the size of a person may make it hard to lift, but doesn't stop the person from grabbing the handle firmly and sliding it. Manipulation (Grip) hasn't been hampered by the size at all, but the weight which as Hugh pointed out is the major factor of hindrance for lifting and moving the suitcase.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: New Mechanic: Manipulation (Campaign Rules)

 

Now as far as the character getting a penalty for manipulating a non-resisting replica of the character' date=' I'm not sure how you are coming to that conclusion. Now if you are talking about a non-replica, then there might be penalties for shape, texture, and so forth.[/quote']

A double mattress is smaller than a human. Try manipulating one up to the top of a loft bed. I did this a couple of weeks ago - I was not working without a penalty! It would have been a lot easier working with a screw, which I also had to do to assemble the bed.

 

Of course, weight also has something to do with this, as does surface area, whether the object tends to fold up or stick to itself, and numerous other factors. I'm more and more inclined to go with a GM judgement overall penalty or bonus. But then, I don't need to know the bonus or penalty for manipulating a virus-sized object.

You pretty much said the same thing I did in the quote above.

 

I didn't mention weight since that is handled by the STR stat, but perhaps I should add that to the original post for completeness sake.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: New Mechanic: Manipulation (Campaign Rules)

 

QFT.

 

That's excellent advice. It'll be a long time before I consider reading another one of Mullins' proposed mechanics. Why waste my time when he's not actually interested in criticism?

Your choice. But if you contribution only result in arguments or bad feelings, it might be wiser to not bother.

 

However, I do welcome constructive criticism, but not destructive criticism.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New Mechanic: Manipulation (Campaign Rules)

 

A suitcase that is filled with lead and is more than 1/4 the size of a person may make it hard to lift' date=' but doesn't stop the person from grabbing the handle firmly and sliding it. Manipulation (Grip) hasn't been hampered by the size at all, but the weight which as Hugh pointed out is the major factor of hindrance for lifting and moving the suitcase.[/quote']

 

Let's assume we're dealing with 40 pounds of a loose material in a box. Let's further assume the box is 1 foot x 1 foot x 3" (1/4 cubic foot), such that this substance weighs 160 pounds per cubic foot. That box seems pretty easy to manipulate.

 

Now, let's change the shape of the box. Let's make it 5' x 3" x 2.4". The mass has not changed. The volume has not changed, so the size has not changed. I suggest, however, that a single person will find this object a lot tougher to lift and carry (ie manipulate) thanks to the variant dimensions.

 

Let's *manipulate* the two boxes. Turn them both 180 degrees along their longest dimension. I'm pretty sure I could turn the first container relatively easily, but that second container is going to be much tougher.

 

Let's add to the challenge: You are in an enclosure 6' x 6' x 6'. The box can't hit the walls or they will break (flooding the chamber with hydrochloric acid). Which box would you rather be manipulating?

 

But both boxes are the same size (volume), aren't they? Certainly neither varies by the kind of factors you're using. Under your system, they are both equally easy to manipulate.

 

As well, I would suggest that heavier objects within STR tolerance can be more difficult to manipulate in many circumstances. If you can barely lift it, reorienting it is tough. On the other hand, lighter objects can be tougher to manipulate with precision. Objects that are flexible go around corners easier, but are harder to point in a straight line. There are far more variables than you are considering, and the one you do (size) is probably not a major determinant, at least not on the scale you are using.

 

To my loft bed example, an air mattress would have been easier to work with, solely due to its being lighter. Both items were do-able at my STR, but the lighter weight object, same size, same dimensions, would have been much easier.

[schir1964]

Re: New Mechanic: Manipulation (Campaign Rules)

 

Let's assume we're dealing with 40 pounds of a loose material in a box. Let's further assume the box is 1 foot x 1 foot x 3" (1/4 cubic foot), such that this substance weighs 160 pounds per cubic foot. That box seems pretty easy to manipulate.

 

Now, let's change the shape of the box. Let's make it 5' x 3" x 2.4". The mass has not changed. The volume has not changed, so the size has not changed. I suggest, however, that a single person will find this object a lot tougher to lift and carry (ie manipulate) thanks to the variant dimensions.

 

Let's *manipulate* the two boxes. Turn them both 180 degrees along their longest dimension. I'm pretty sure I could turn the first container relatively easily, but that second container is going to be much tougher.

 

Let's add to the challenge: You are in an enclosure 6' x 6' x 6'. The box can't hit the walls or they will break (flooding the chamber with hydrochloric acid). Which box would you rather be manipulating?

 

But both boxes are the same size (volume), aren't they? Certainly neither varies by the kind of factors you're using. Under your system, they are both equally easy to manipulate.

 

As well, I would suggest that heavier objects within STR tolerance can be more difficult to manipulate in many circumstances. If you can barely lift it, reorienting it is tough. On the other hand, lighter objects can be tougher to manipulate with precision. Objects that are flexible go around corners easier, but are harder to point in a straight line. There are far more variables than you are considering, and the one you do (size) is probably not a major determinant, at least not on the scale you are using.

 

To my loft bed example, an air mattress would have been easier to work with, solely due to its being lighter. Both items were do-able at my STR, but the lighter weight object, same size, same dimensions, would have been much easier.

Absolutely, we are definitely into the Penalties based on Shape, Texture, and so forth.

 

Are you suggesting another category to gage flexibility?

That is something that should be added. Any suggestions? Or do you still need a better handle on the situations before giving concrete numbers. I'll certainly understand if you need to wait.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New Mechanic: Manipulation (Campaign Rules)

 

Absolutely, we are definitely into the Penalties based on Shape, Texture, and so forth.

 

Are you suggesting another category to gage flexibility?

That is something that should be added. Any suggestions? Or do you still need a better handle on the situations before giving concrete numbers. I'll certainly understand if you need to wait.

 

I think the best approach is for you to run some of your examples through your system to assess whether the results are satisfactory. If they aren't, you may want to make some changes up front, or at least highlight the areas where you are presently dissatisfied and would especially value suggestions.

[schir1964]

Re: New Mechanic: Manipulation (Campaign Rules)

 

Will do.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Re: New Mechanic: Manipulation (Campaign Rules)

 

Two wrongs don't make a right. If you do this again' date=' I'll report your post.[/quote']

 

Gosh, you're quick with that report thing. Well, okay, go ahead.

[schir1964]

Re: New Mechanic: Manipulation (Campaign Rules)

 

Bump.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Re: New Mechanic: Manipulation (Campaign Rules)

 

... why??

[schir1964]

Re: New Mechanic: Manipulation (Campaign Rules)

 

... why??

I bumped it up for someone else who was asking about manipulation.

 

I can't imagine why you would bother to post again to this thread again. Weird.

 

- Christopher Mullins