New Mechanic: Manipulation (Campaign Rules)

[schir1964]

Manipulation

Manipulation is a measure of how well one can control objects.

 

Campaign Rules

In order for Manipulation to have any meaning a framework for how manipulation will be handled in the Campaign needs to be defined.

 

A Manipulation roll should be made when there is a good chance that the character might lose control of an object. To determine this the GM should check to see if a net penalty exists for the character trying to manipulate an object. If a net penalty (Penalty after Penalties and Bonuses are added) exists, then the character should make a manipulation roll.

 

A Character base manipulation can be derived from DEX (if that is how the GM views it) or as Zero Value Stat. Either method is equally valid and the following formulas are just initial guesses on how to use them.

 

Manipulation Roll (Based On DEX): 9 + (DEX/5)

Manipulation Roll (Separate From DEX): 9 + (Base Manipulation)

 

A successful manipulation roll means that the character has succeeded in controlling the object for whatever they were trying to do (single simple task). If the character tries to do something else that requires a significant change in control of the object, then another roll should be required.

 

A failed manipulation roll means that the character has failed to control the object in the manner they were wanting. The GM must determine what happens based on common sense and/or dramatic sense. If the object is tiny/fragile then perhaps the character needs to roll damage done to the object. If the object is heavy or hard to handle then perhaps the character has dropped the object on his foot causing damage their self or the object. Or perhaps the task being attempted simply fails. Regardless, the result is determined by the GM.

 

The following is the rules help to define Penalties/Bonuses for objects in order to determine whether a Manipulation Roll is required.

 

Manipulation Modifiers

Size Penalty: Object size will affect how well it can be manipulated. Size in this context will refer to relative size in comparison to the character's size. The GM determines how much larger or smaller the object is compared to the character and may use the following chart to get the Size Based penalty.

 

Smaller Object

-0 Penalty (1x through 1/256x) Note: 1 = Size Of Character

-1 Penalty (1/512x)

-2 Penalty (1/1024x)

-4 Penalty (1/2048x)

-8 Penalty (1/4096x)

And so forth...

 

Larger Object

-0 Penalty (1x through 2x) Note: 1 = Size Of Character

-1 Penalty (2x)

-2 Penalty (4x)

-4 Penalty (8x)

-8 Penalty (16x)

And so forth...

 

Object size can only convey a penalty, never a bonus.

 

Texture Modifier: The texture of an object can affect the manipulation of the object. The following are ony suggestions and can be added to or changed as needed by the GM to fit their campaign.

 

Smooth Texture: -1 Penalty

Rough Texture: +1 Bonus

Slippery Texture: -2 Penalty (or more: GM determined)

Sticky Texture: Varies (Can grant a Bonus or Penalty based on task being performed: GM determined)

Soft Texture: +1 Bonus

Hard Texture: -1 Penalty

 

Shape Modifier: The shape of an object can affect the manipulation of the object. The following are only suggestions... and so forth.

 

Sphere: +0 Penalty/Bonus

Spiny/Prickly: -2 Penalty

Designed For Manipulation: +6 Bonus (example: Handles on a container)

Concavity/Protrusions: Bonus Varies (Object's shape makes it easier to manipulate: GM Determined)

 

Center Of Gravity: The object's center of gravity can affect the manipulation of the object. The following are only suggestions... and so forth.

 

Unbalanced: -2 (Object has odd center of gravity)

Shifting: -3 (Object's center of gravity isn't fixed and may move)

 

Motion: Object is autonomous in some manner. This may or may not be combined with Shifting Center Of Gravity depending on the description of the object and the motion involved.

 

Vibration: Penalty Varies (Object is vibrating which hinders manipulation)

Inertia: Penalty/Bonus Varies (Object's inertia is artificially altered in some way)

Resistance: Based On Opponent (Object is actively resisting manipulation)

 

Device: Object is device that has controls that needs to be manipulated to operate.

 

Complex: Penalty Varies (Based on device and what is needed to operate it)

Sensitive: -2 Penalty (Device's controls are sensitive and requires a fine touch to handle them)

 

Manipulation Cost: 5 Points Per +1 Manipulation

 

This construct is completely off the hip so this post may change radically as comments are made.

 

This construct adds a guideline on how one may add detail where manipulation is concerned. Those who are happy with the system with regard to manipulation need not apply.

 

I need help to know where there will be problems with integration with the current system.

 

Thoughts?

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Re: New Mechanic: Manipulation (Campaign Rules)

 

This looks very complex.

 

Congratulations.

 

And good luck with that.

 

If judging how well someone could manipulate something was critical, I'd just have them make a Dex (or Sleight of Hand) roll, modified by how difficult the task was, in my judgement. Otherwise ...

 

'I pull my pistol from my holster and --'

"Make a Manipulation roll."

'... huh?!?'

 

To be honest, the 'new mechanics' you keep creating and the questions you're asking 'why do we have THESE sorts of game design templates?' are ... well, peculiar is the politest way I can frame it. To me at least, you seem to be going far, far out of your way to overcomplicate things, and not just by 'a little'. Do you need a mechanic to see how well you can write your name? Or to give someone else a power?? Most of these are either hand-wavers or already in the system, so ...

 

I guess I'm just wanting to dissect your brain ...

[casualplayer]

Re: New Mechanic: Manipulation (Campaign Rules)

 

It sounds like you want to treat the ability to do Fine Work as a Skill. Interesting thought.

[Sean Waters]

Re: New Mechanic: Manipulation (Campaign Rules)

 

I like this. When it is needed (and it wouldn't be needed for most everyday taks or tasks covered by other skills, except possibly as a complimentary roll) it would add that little bit of detail that polishes the reality of the game.

 

It is not intrusive and does not require anyone to TAKE manipulation skill as it can default to DEX, but for the right character it allows better definition which, with a toolkit, is something we ought to strive for.

 

Well done

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New Mechanic: Manipulation (Campaign Rules)

 

This looks very complex.

 

Congratulations.

 

And good luck with that.

 

If judging how well someone could manipulate something was critical, I'd just have them make a Dex (or Sleight of Hand) roll, modified by how difficult the task was, in my judgement. Otherwise ...

 

'I pull my pistol from my holster and --'

"Make a Manipulation roll."

'... huh?!?'

 

I'm inclined to agree. Many DEX skills are already based on manipulation (lockpicking comes to mind). Why not simply use skill levels with the appropriate groupings and/or limitations to enhance "All DEX rolls requiring manipulation" (which sounds like a 3 point level covering a related group) or some finer subset, using limitations on a 5 point skill roll?

 

IOW, the tool you are looking for is already in the toolkit.

[schir1964]

Re: New Mechanic: Manipulation (Campaign Rules)

 

I'm inclined to agree. Many DEX skills are already based on manipulation (lockpicking comes to mind). Why not simply use skill levels with the appropriate groupings and/or limitations to enhance "All DEX rolls requiring manipulation" (which sounds like a 3 point level covering a related group) or some finer subset, using limitations on a 5 point skill roll?

 

IOW, the tool you are looking for is already in the toolkit.

Where are the guidelines for DEX penalties/bonuses for smaller or larger objects?

Where are the rules that dictate what the penalties/bonuses are when something is Slippery or Tacky?

 

We have guidelines for Perception and when a Perception Roll is needed, where are the guidelines for when a DEX Roll is needed?

 

They don't exist with the current rules.

 

Now as for the difference between DEX and Manipulation, I think they are distinctly different.

 

A Human (Human SFX) that has a higher DEX doesn't suddenly get smaller fingers to pick up smaller objects. In order for there to be good SFX for having a High Manipulation abilities requires more than just DEX. But that is my view of Manipulation.

 

But I included DEX as possible base for Manipulation for people who view it as having an effect on Manipulation, since I see no reason to try to impose my view on how others run their games. And the guidelines for handling the Penalties/Bonuses are there for use regardless of whether one thinks it is a DEX based roll or not. Something the current rules lack.

 

This mechanic fills the gap so that a Well World Campaign is more feasible.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: New Mechanic: Manipulation (Campaign Rules)

 

I like this. When it is needed (and it wouldn't be needed for most everyday taks or tasks covered by other skills, except possibly as a complimentary roll) it would add that little bit of detail that polishes the reality of the game.

 

It is not intrusive and does not require anyone to TAKE manipulation skill as it can default to DEX, but for the right character it allows better definition which, with a toolkit, is something we ought to strive for.

 

Well done

Well at least one person thinks it might have some use.

 

As you can already see Sean, the posts about how this mechanic isn't needed has started.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: New Mechanic: Manipulation (Campaign Rules)

 

Other possible uses:

 

Manipulation could be Complementary Roll to Maintaining/Escaping Grabs.

Manipulation could be a Complementary Roll to Lockpicking or just DEX Rolls in general depending on SFX.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New Mechanic: Manipulation (Campaign Rules)

 

Where are the guidelines for DEX penalties/bonuses for smaller or larger objects?

Where are the rules that dictate what the penalties/bonuses are when something is Slippery or Tacky?

 

We have guidelines for Perception and when a Perception Roll is needed, where are the guidelines for when a DEX Roll is needed?

 

They don't exist with the current rules.

 

I think such guidelines could be useful, and might make for a good DH article. However, they are only really extrapolations from the standard rules for penalties/bonuses for tasks which are difficult/easy. A lot of areas could benefit from greater guidance on what constitutes tasks that are routine, easy, difficult, etc.

 

Whether "slippery" or "tacky" provides a penalty or bonus, and how much, would depend greatly on what you're trying to accomplish with the object you're manipulating. It's easier to hold on to something tacky. Now try to put it down in a certain orientation.

 

For that matter, tacky and slippery will have different impact for different means (SFX) of manipulation. If the substance is tacky or slippery, it will make a great deal of difference as I try to catch it in my hands. Will it make the same difference if I am trying to catch it with psychokinesis, a purple hand from my Power Ring, or manipulation of the magnetic or gravimetric field?

 

Now as for the difference between DEX and Manipulation' date=' I think they are distinctly different.[/quote']

 

Seeing, hearing, tasting and remembering an obscure case from a law course are very different. They all base from intelligence and you adjust them from there. Picking locks, moving quietly, hiding in shadows, performing backflips, performing cartwheels, falling without injury, rolling to your feet after being knocked backwards, climbing a rope, climbing a tree and climbing a rock face are all very different from one another, but all start with DEX, and several start from the same subset of DEX/DEX skill. There is a limit to how much granularity is practical, or desirable.

 

A Human (Human SFX) that has a higher DEX doesn't suddenly get smaller fingers to pick up smaller objects. In order for there to be good SFX for having a High Manipulation abilities requires more than just DEX. But that is my view of Manipulation.

 

The same can be said for acrobatics, breakfall, climbing, picking locks,firing a gun, throwing a punch or swinging a nightstick, but these are all impacted equally by DEX, and modified by skill levels. What about manipulation makes it a necessary exception to the norm - ie one which is so different from other aspects of DEX and/or so common an issue that it merits an extensive analysis separate and apart from DEX?

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: New Mechanic: Manipulation (Campaign Rules)

 

Does it pay for itself?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New Mechanic: Manipulation (Campaign Rules)

 

Does it pay for itself?

 

Well and concisely said!

 

Repp'ed

[schir1964]

Re: New Mechanic: Manipulation (Campaign Rules)

 

Does it pay for itself?

 

Yes. For me it does.

 

For anyone else, that is for them to decide.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Re: New Mechanic: Manipulation (Campaign Rules)

 

Well at least one person thinks it might have some use.

 

As you can already see Sean, the posts about how this mechanic isn't needed has started.

 

- Christopher Mullins

 

You want to come up with sixty different new 'mechanics' to decide precisely how easy or difficult something is, or how much your limbs cost, you feel free. I'm the guy who looks at 'No Hands' and 'Unable to Walk' and says, 'So hands are 25 points, and legs are 20 points.' Or 'Blindness' and says, 'Basic Sight is 25 character points.'

 

You want to build your characters with absolutely no presumptions at all, so they have to buy arms, hands, legs, feet, a head, a reproductive system, a circulatory system, a nervous system, a brain, eyes, ears, mouth/tongue, nose, skin, fingernails, and everything else, you go right ahead. I'll stick with my basic 'okay, so I'm gonna play a guy who can ...' assumptions.

 

Needed? No. Wanted? Apparently by you; congratulations. I'll just say 'okay, make a Dex roll at -3 to get it to drop at just the right time; it's bulky (-2) and a little sticky (-1)' and go on my merry way.

[schir1964]

Re: New Mechanic: Manipulation (Campaign Rules)

 

You want to come up with sixty different new 'mechanics' to decide precisely how easy or difficult something is, or how much your limbs cost, you feel free. I'm the guy who looks at 'No Hands' and 'Unable to Walk' and says, 'So hands are 25 points, and legs are 20 points.' Or 'Blindness' and says, 'Basic Sight is 25 character points.'

 

You want to build your characters with absolutely no presumptions at all, so they have to buy arms, hands, legs, feet, a head, a reproductive system, a circulatory system, a nervous system, a brain, eyes, ears, mouth/tongue, nose, skin, fingernails, and everything else, you go right ahead. I'll stick with my basic 'okay, so I'm gonna play a guy who can ...' assumptions.

 

Needed? No. Wanted? Apparently by you; congratulations. I'll just say 'okay, make a Dex roll at -3 to get it to drop at just the right time; it's bulky (-2) and a little sticky (-1)' and go on my merry way.

Thank you. This is an honest straight forward opinion. You recognize that for me, this is needed feature. Yes, I know you said wanted, but that want came from a need to run Well World Campaign where the current rules fall short of handling it properly.

 

And as I said in my initial post, "This construct adds a guideline on how one may add detail where manipulation is concerned. Those who are happy with the system with regard to manipulation need not apply."

 

Perhaps some have missed that line in the original post.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Mike W]

Re: New Mechanic: Manipulation (Campaign Rules)

 

Other possible uses:

 

Manipulation could be Complementary Roll to Maintaining/Escaping Grabs.

Manipulation could be a Complementary Roll to Lockpicking or just DEX Rolls in general depending on SFX.

 

- Christopher Mullins

 

I don't see Manipulation as complimentary to a grab or escape. Fine motor skill won't help you with either one. That's pure grip strength.

 

I'm not entirely sure we need to create a whole new Manipulation stat for this though. I mean, we could just take the modifier list and call them DEX modifiers. True, DEX doesn't necessarily equate to the kind of hand-eye coordination that manipulation covers, but it's currently designed to cover it and I don't think Manipulation is likely to come enough to justify pricing it out as a separate ability - unless we can come up with a pretty large list of skills that it can be complimentary to. Even then, it should probably get costed at 2/1 rather than 3/2.

[Trebuchet]

Re: New Mechanic: Manipulation (Campaign Rules)

 

I think it would have made far more sense to simply have created a simple penalty/bonus chart to cover these potential manipulation issues rather than creating an entirely new mechanic. A DEX roll with appropriate modifiers would plug right into the existing system without the need for a page-long (and IMHO totally unneeded) mechanic.

 

Is there ANY part of the Hero system you feel doesn't merit reworking? It's pretty clear that if you (re)designed the system to your taste, the Hero rulebook would vie with a Manhattan phone book for bulk.

[schir1964]

Re: New Mechanic: Manipulation (Campaign Rules)

 

I think such guidelines could be useful' date=' and might make for a good DH article. However, they are only really extrapolations from the standard rules for penalties/bonuses for tasks which are difficult/easy. A lot of areas could benefit from greater guidance on what constitutes tasks that are routine, easy, difficult, etc.[/quote']

This begs the questions:

 

Would you relegate the Guidelines for Perception Rules with Bonus/Penalties to Digital Hero Articles and removed from the core book?

 

Would you relegate the Guidelines and Rules for Hit Locations to a Digital Hero Article and remove them from the core book?

 

How about Talents? The basics for building them exist with Skills and Powers. Based on your reasoning these should also be relegated to simply being a Digital Hero Article.

 

Long Term Endurance? Relevant extra set of rules or just a Digital Hero Article?

 

How about all those extra rules that are added with Supplements? Are they only worthy of being Digital Hero Articles?

 

Now let's look at what it means to be a Digital Hero Article. Alternative rules for Trigger were written in a Digital Hero Article, yet those most of those rules were included in Hero 5th Edition Revised. I think I've heard of other extra/expanded/alternative rules, that made a "good DH article", ended up being in Supplements as "Official Rules".

 

So if the guidelines for Manipulation were printed in a Digital Hero Article and then ended up as "Official" by appearing in a Supplement, why the fuss over treating these guidelines as if they were worthy of being an optional rule in the core book?

 

Where is the measuring stick that determines whether a rule should be considered part of the Core Book, Optional Rule In Core Book, or Alternative Official Rule In Supplement?

 

I know of no such standard that is actually used to decide what appears in the Core Book or Supplements. Perhaps you know of something that I don't. As far as I know, Steve Long or the other owners of Herogames is the final arbiter of what shows up in print or not. What standards they use, I have no idea.

 

Seeing' date=' hearing, tasting and remembering an obscure case from a law course are very different. They all base from intelligence and you adjust them from there.[/quote']

Could you give a page reference for where "remembering" aka Memory is based on INT in the mechanics?

 

However, you've just described Manipulation used DEX as the base value, and then being modified from there. That's not how I would do it, but I did include that option in my proposal so I don't see why you have a problem with it beyond just that you yourself don't need it. I'm sure there are numerous rules/options that you rarely if ever use, does that make those rules worthless?

 

And just so you know, saying that my rules, might make a good Digital Hero Article. does give me the impression that you think they are worthless, unless of course you view Digital Hero Articles worthy of being included as official rules in the Core Book or Supplements.

 

Picking locks' date=' moving quietly, hiding in shadows, performing backflips, performing cartwheels, falling without injury, rolling to your feet after being knocked backwards, climbing a rope, climbing a tree and climbing a rock face are all very different from one another, but all start with DEX, and several start from the same subset of DEX/DEX skill. There is a limit to how much granularity is practical, or desirable.[/quote']

What about Clinging?

 

Climbing a rope, Climbing a tree, Climbing a rock face, or even Climbing a ceiling, are they all based on DEX or subset of DEX or is STR a critical factor?

 

I do get you point about granularity. And that is why I said in my initial post, "This construct adds a guideline on how one may add detail where manipulation is concerned. Those who are happy with the system with regard to manipulation need not apply."

 

The same can be said for acrobatics' date=' breakfall, climbing, picking locks,firing a gun, throwing a punch or swinging a nightstick, but these are all impacted equally by DEX, and modified by skill levels.[/quote']

True, this is how the system currently works.

The real question is, "Should they all be impacted equally?"

But that is another thread.

 

What about manipulation makes it a necessary exception to the norm - ie one which is so different from other aspects of DEX and/or so common an issue that it merits an extensive analysis separate and apart from DEX?

Okay, this is good question.

I have a character that due to a radiation accident has one human arm but the other arm is now just a monofiliment arm (Zero STR or possibly less) that they have complete control over and has the ability to carry and place individual cells from one location to another without damage. And such an ability may play a critical role in a Well World Campaign.

 

How is this built using existing rules without any GM hand waving of legality of the rules. One of the results adding new official rules/options is legitimacy of certain SFX builds and constructs.

 

Based on what I know of the current rules, this can't be done since there is no mechanic/guideline to distinguish what the default two limbs a character has can or can't do with enough DEX. 5th Edition Revised has changed or added some rule that might allow it.

 

What's the penalty, besides perception, for grabbing a specific cell out of millions. How slippery is a cell? How fragile? And so forth. Saying that it is just GM call might work if it was just for a single time or even few times, but for an ability that will be common a GM call every time just won't cut it.

 

Here's another way of looking at the difference between Manipulation and DEX.

 

You have two characters. One is an Arcturian and another is Flagian. They are identical in all respects except for the following. They both have super perception (I'm removing those penalties from the equation).

 

Arcturian Arms (Human Structure but Advanced Nerve Development: 10 STR, 50 DEX

Flavian Arms (Two 50mm Strands with thousands of monofiliment phalanges): 10 STR, 50 DEX

 

Flavians can change DNA strands by manipulating them with their phalanges. It is one of their prized marketable skills.

 

Now if we use DEX as the method of handling Manipulation, Arcturians have the same chance of manipulating DNA as the Flavians.

 

With the method I've proposed, there is an actual mechanical difference in the ability to manipulate objects.

 

Does this help clarify anything?

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: New Mechanic: Manipulation (Campaign Rules)

 

Is there ANY part of the Hero system you feel doesn't merit reworking? It's pretty clear that if you (re)designed the system to your taste' date=' the Hero rulebook would vie with a Manhattan phone book for bulk. [/quote']

Sure, Energy Blast, many of the powers. Skills as listed are fine, although I might expand the list, but that is different than "reworking" them.

 

What if all the Official Optional Rules from the Supplements were included in the Core book? They are just as official and valid as those in the core book, per Steve Long. What then?

 

If you don't want a phone book, then just view these "Optional/Expansion/Alternative" rules that I post as simply rules that would show up in Supplements.

 

Why do I always get the feeling that people think I'm trying to force them to agree to use these rules.

 

You don't like them, don't have a use for them, fine. I have no problem with that, I've already stated why I have a need for them, so why try to get me to convince you of that need? And that is what a lot of these questions boil down to... "Why do you need these rules? We don't think you do so you must convince us before we will offer constructive criticism."

 

That is the impression I get from some of you. Does it really matter that you don't have a need for mechanic in order to help someone else hammer them out. If you don't want to do that, fine, but why bother posting why you think these rules don't need to exist?

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Mike W]

Re: New Mechanic: Manipulation (Campaign Rules)

 

Sure, Energy Blast, many of the powers. Skills as listed are fine, although I might expand the list, but that is different than "reworking" them.

 

What if all the Official Optional Rules from the Supplements were included in the Core book? They are just as official and valid as those in the core book, per Steve Long. What then?

 

If you don't want a phone book, then just view these "Optional/Expansion/Alternative" rules that I post as simply rules that would show up in Supplements.

 

Why do I always get the feeling that people think I'm trying to force them to agree to use these rules.

 

You don't like them, don't have a use for them, fine. I have no problem with that, I've already stated why I have a need for them, so why try to get me to convince you of that need? And that is what a lot of these questions boil down to... "Why do you need these rules? We don't think you do so you must convince us before we will offer constructive criticism."

 

That is the impression I get from some of you. Does it really matter that you don't have a need for mechanic in order to help someone else hammer them out. If you don't want to do that, fine, but why bother posting why you think these rules don't need to exist?

 

- Christopher Mullins

 

I think a good part of the reason we always ask "why do we need this rule?" is that it's a natural part of our process. Before we decide to add more rules, we try to see if the current rules can handle the situation. If they can handle it well, then there is no need for additional rules. So part of our trying to understand the new rules you want to hammer out is trying to figure out what they can do that the current rules can't - and that basically boils down to the question of whether we need them or not.

 

The next step is to try and figure out if the new rules are going to cover something that will come up often enough to justify the effort of writing a new set of rules - especially one as detailed and complicated as you tend to favor.

 

After that, the general inclination, for most of us I think, is to fit them as neatly into the current system as possible. Hence why most people in this thread are wanting to take the Manipulation based on DEX option rather than creating yet another stat to keep track of.

[schir1964]

Re: New Mechanic: Manipulation (Campaign Rules)

 

I'm not entirely sure we need to create a whole new Manipulation stat for this though. I mean' date=' we could just take the modifier list and call them DEX modifiers. True, DEX doesn't necessarily equate to the kind of hand-eye coordination that manipulation covers, but it's currently designed to cover it and I don't think Manipulation is likely to come enough to justify pricing it out as a separate ability - unless we can come up with a pretty large list of skills that it can be complimentary to. Even then, it should probably get costed at 2/1 rather than 3/2.[/quote']

Here's another way of looking at the difference between Manipulation and DEX.

 

You have two characters. One is an Arcturian and another is Flagian. They are identical in all respects except for the following. They both have super perception (I'm removing those penalties from the equation).

 

Arcturian Arms (Human Structure but Advanced Nerve Development: 10 STR, 50 DEX

Flavian Arms (Two 50mm Strands with thousands of monofiliment phalanges): 10 STR, 50 DEX

 

Flavians can change DNA strands by manipulating them with their phalanges. It is one of their prized marketable skills.

 

Now if we use DEX as the method of handling Manipulation, Arcturians have the same chance of manipulating DNA as the Flavians.

 

With the method I've proposed, there is an actual mechanical difference in the ability to manipulate objects.

 

Does this help clarify anything?

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Mike W]

Re: New Mechanic: Manipulation (Campaign Rules)

 

Here's another way of looking at the difference between Manipulation and DEX.

 

You have two characters. One is an Arcturian and another is Flagian. They are identical in all respects except for the following. They both have super perception (I'm removing those penalties from the equation).

 

Arcturian Arms (Human Structure but Advanced Nerve Development: 10 STR, 50 DEX

Flavian Arms (Two 50mm Strands with thousands of monofiliment phalanges): 10 STR, 50 DEX

 

Flavians can change DNA strands by manipulating them with their phalanges. It is one of their prized marketable skills.

 

Now if we use your method of handling Manipulation using DEX, Arcturians have the same chance of manipulating DNA as the Flavians.

 

With the method I've proposed, there is an actual mechanical difference in the ability to manipulate objects.

 

Does this help clarify anything?

 

- Christopher Mullins

But this still generates two questions:

 

1. How often is something like this going to occur? Pretty much every "playable" race in any game I've ever played(HERO or otherwise) basically presumed humanoid shape and arms.

 

2. Why not just give the Flavians a skill with manipulating DNA and then say that the Arcturians can't do it without equipment? Basically, just build the DNA manipulation thing as special racial ability with the Flavians' unusual arms as a special effect that allows them to do so in the same way that you might give another race Extended Breathing because they can breathe methane and humans can't.

 

For that matter, what can a character with Manipulation do that a character with Sleight of Hand can't do? Sleight of Hand is basically nothing but fine manipulation of objects in your hands at a level that most people can't begin to manage.

 

I'm still trying to see how this is going to come up often enough in the game to justify going to that much trouble. Having a list of modifiers for a DEX roll would be useful but addint a whole new skill for Manipulation?

[schir1964]

Re: New Mechanic: Manipulation (Campaign Rules)

 

But this still generates two questions:

 

1. How often is something like this going to occur? Pretty much every "playable" race in any game I've ever played(HERO or otherwise) basically presumed humanoid shape and arms.

See this thread: [thread=59921]Template Analysis[/thread]

 

But to respond to the "How Often"...

How often do you use Long Term Endurance Rules?

How often do you use Hit Location Rules?

How often do you use Any Particular Alternative Supplement Rules?

 

I could go on and on with seldom used rules by different people, but would that be a good gage (in and of itself) of what rules should be included?

 

Some might say yes and some might say no.

 

But that isn't an issue here anyway since I am confident that nearly all of my proposals will never see print.

 

2. Why not just give the Flavians a skill with manipulating DNA and then say that the Arcturians can't do it without equipment? Basically' date=' just build the DNA manipulation thing as special racial ability with the Flavians' unusual arms as a special effect that allows them to do so in the same way that you might give another race Extended Breathing because they can breathe methane and humans can't.[/quote']

Again this touches on the whole Template issue and why I gave you the link above to get a better understanding of the views on that in particular.

 

Several misunderstandings here that I need to clear up.

I gave DNA manipulation as an example to show a specific level of manipulation, not altering DNA, that would be another skill/power/etc. The Flavians aren't limited to just manipulating DNA, they can manipulate anything at that level so your solution of specifying a specific skill won't work.

 

Now if you are suggesting a more generic Manipulation Skill, then you just understood what I've already done in my original post. I didn't use the word Skill, but that is the essence of what the Manipulation rules are.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Mike W]

Re: New Mechanic: Manipulation (Campaign Rules)

 

See this thread: [thread=59921]Template Analysis[/thread]

 

But to respond to the "How Often"...

How often do you use Long Term Endurance Rules?

How often do you use Hit Location Rules?

How often do you use Any Particular Alternative Supplement Rules?

 

I could go on and on with seldom used rules by different people, but would that be a good gage (in and of itself) of what rules should be included?

 

Some might say yes and some might say no.

 

But that isn't an issue here anyway since I am confident that nearly all of my proposals will never see print.

 

 

Again this touches on the whole Template issue and why I gave you the link above to get a better understanding of the views on that in particular.

 

Several misunderstandings here that I need to clear up.

I gave DNA manipulation as an example to show a specific level of manipulation. The Flavians aren't limited to just manipulating DNA, they can manipulate anything at that level so your solution of specifying a specific skill won't work.

 

Now if you are suggesting a more generic Manipulation Skill, then you just understood what I've already done in my original post. I didn't use the word Skill, but that is the essence of what the Manipulation rules are.

 

- Christopher Mullins

 

It might be worth having a Manipulation skill - if we can figure out how it differs from Sleight of Hand, which is what currently gets used for manipulating objects in your hands at a very high level. In short, we need to define what it will do and what will remain the province of Sleight of Hand, which despite the name covers more than card tricks and the like. In any event, I think Manipulation, if we can work it out is likely a 2/1 skill though and not a 3/2, espeically if you don't want to base it on DEX.

 

I understand the template analysis, but really, I think it's a bit unnecessary. Generally speaking, we just use the human baseline and then add or subtract as needed. If it doesn't balance out then you have to pay points, or take Disads, or both, to make it balance and that works well enough. Creating more templates, to me, is more work to achieve the same effect. In the end, the templates need to be roughly equal if they're going to be playable and they need to be expressed in a form that makes the interplay between them as compatible as possible.

 

As for the how often questions, I do think there is a difference between how often the rules MIGHT come up(whether we choose to use them or not) and how often we actually use them. Hit Locations is used a lot in some game genres. So is long term END. But we don't want to create a large set of rules just for one specific situtation that may only come up once in our entire playing careers, do we? So in that sense, I think the question is valid. We need to determine how often the rule MIGHT be necessary, not how often we'd actually use it since different GMs will inevitably enforce(or not) optional rules differently.

[schir1964]

Re: New Mechanic: Manipulation (Campaign Rules)

 

It might be worth having a Manipulation skill - if we can figure out how it differs from Sleight of Hand' date=' which is what currently gets used for manipulating objects in your hands at a very high level. In short, we need to define what it will do and what will remain the province of Sleight of Hand, which despite the name covers more than card tricks and the like. In any event, I think Manipulation, if we can work it out is likely a 2/1 skill though and not a 3/2, espeically if you don't want to base it on DEX.[/quote']

Now this is the kind of thing I was looking for.

 

Okay, I can see where you are coming from on this.

Sleight Of Hand might be Manipulation Skill in disguise.

 

The cost of the skill will be directly influenced by the Bonus/Penalties definitions that describe the different levels of ability.

If the Bonuses/Penalties are small, then the Skill Cost should be increased.

If the Bonuses/Penalties are large, then the Skill Cost should be small.

 

However, the most important part of the definition of this skill, is that the Manipulation Skill will be dependent on the size of the character so that the skill will work consistently with scale.

 

What would you suggest?

 

Addendum: It shouldn't be based on DEX for the reasons I've already posted.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: New Mechanic: Manipulation (Campaign Rules)

 

I understand the template analysis' date=' but really, I think it's a bit unnecessary. Generally speaking, we just use the human baseline and then add or subtract as needed. If it doesn't balance out then you have to pay points, or take Disads, or both, to make it balance and that works well enough. Creating more templates, to me, is more work to achieve the same effect. In the end, the templates need to be roughly equal if they're going to be playable and they need to be expressed in a form that makes the interplay between them as compatible as possible.[/quote']

Fair enough. And as far as that goes, I would view the various Templates as being Supplement specific as well. But the rules/mechanics to create those Templates, that is what I think should be available in some sort of Core Rules (Building Your Campaign) type of thing.

 

As for the how often questions' date=' I do think there is a difference between how often the rules MIGHT come up(whether we choose to use them or not) and how often we actually use them. Hit Locations is used a lot in some game genres. So is long term END. But we don't want to create a large set of rules just for one specific situation that may only come up once in our entire playing careers, do we? So in that sense, I think the question is valid. We need to determine how often the rule MIGHT be necessary, not how often we'd actually use it since different GMs will inevitably enforce(or not) optional rules differently.[/quote']

Again, fair enough.

So, to clarify my position, I would see the Manipulation Skill as something that would be used often in Sci-Fi campaigns that include many various creatures that would not be classified as Humanoid.

 

So in that sense, these rules would also be considered Setting/Genre specific.

 

Just My Humble Opinion

 

- Christopher Mullins