Sweep Combat Levels

[Mazeus Xenon]

I have found many a thread talking about this but none of them have really address my concern.

 

I know that to offset the penalty skill levels caused by a Sweep you must buy Combat Skill Levels with Sweep (2pt, 5pt, however you do it). But, what confuses me, is that if I am making a master swordsman that can easily sweep everyone who stands around him (essentially a Sweep up to 6 targets) I would then buy 10 levels with Sweep so the last strike would be as "normal" (cumulative penalty would be -10 on the last target). But, if I buy them as a 2pt Skill as suggest by Steve, that would mean my first attack would have a +8 OCV bonus. I don't want to be able to easily hit earlier on - just not lose out to the cumulative penalty.

 

Any ideas? I am sure - when using the Ultimate Skill book - that I could just apply a Limitation of "Only to Offset Negative OCV from Maneuver" but isn't that the exact same thing as if I were to buy Penalty Skill Levels?

 

And now all I am is mildly confused...

[Spidey88]

Re: Sweep Combat Levels

 

I've had this come up myself more than once, having more than one character who's had all sorts of extra limbs...

 

One would think that Penalty skill levels would be the way to go, since they don't actually give any kind of bonuses - just counter negatives. Thing is, there's a fairly limited list of things you can counter with PSLs, and Sweep penalties aren't one of them.

 

So, from all the discussion I've seen (and all the questions I've asked about the exact same thing), buying CSLs to deal with the Sweep penalties is the official way to go. Thing is, you can't get any point break for the limitation "only to counter penalties without going over base OCV", since you can't properly apply limitations to anything less than a 5-pt. CSL. It's a situation where you can take a limitation, but it's entirely a matter of principle, since you don't get any points back from it. (I can't remember where I've seen the rules for "taking a limitation for zero points returned to match the concept properly", but I know there's precedent somewhere.)

 

 

In a nutshell: you can't take PSLs to counter Sweep penalties, but you can take 2-point CSLs and manipulate them so they act exactly like PSLs.

 

That's the official answer, as I understand it. Hopefully that comes out clearly!

 

The shorthand way to deal with it, IMHO, is to just say "the heck with it" and say you've bought 2-point PSLs to counter Sweep penalties. It at least covers the effect you want, without the long explanation (since it might as well be the same thing). You just tell your GM that they are actually limited CSLs, but this is the shortest way to write them on your character sheet!

[Sean Waters]

Re: Sweep Combat Levels

 

10 x 5 point melee combat skill levels, the sort you CAN limit

 

Only for OCV -1

Only useable with sword -1

Only useable with sweep -1

Only to offset sweep penalties -1

 

Total penalty -4, Active points 50, Real points 10.

 

The bonuses might be a tad generous, but probably not overly so.

 

You get the picture.

 

Of course there are those who would say that -2 is the 'max' limitation you could take because anything more means the levels would cost less than PSLs and they cannot do what you want. That actually works out quite well: -2 gives a real cost of 17 points - midway between 10 psls and 10 ocv levels

[BoneDaddy]

Re: Sweep Combat Levels

 

Hand - Hand Attack, AOE 1 Hex, Double Area, Selective. Hit everyone next to you that you want to. OAF - sword, RSR: fencing

[The Main Man]

Re: Sweep Combat Levels

 

To me, because Sweep (and Rapid Fire) apply to other maneuvers, they should cost 3 CP per level.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Sweep Combat Levels

 

I don't have my book in front of me, but my understanding of Sweep / Rapid Fire is that you apply the cumulative penalty to ALL of the attack rolls. It's not like Autofire where the penalty is iterative. Otherwise, you would never buy Autofire.

[Spidey88]

Re: Sweep Combat Levels

 

Right you are! It didn't even occur to me.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Sweep Combat Levels

 

From the online FAQ:

 

For Sweep and Rapid Fire, do you calculate the total OCV penalty and apply it to all the rolls, or is the first roll at full OCV, the second at -2, the third at -4, and so forth?

 

You calculate the total OCV penalty and apply it to all the rolls. For example, if an OCV 10 character Sweeps four targets, that’s a -6 OCV penalty (-2 per target after the first), and he makes all four rolls at -6 OCV (or 4 OCV).

[Kdansky]

Re: Sweep Combat Levels

 

Yeah, but that does not change the fact that it's 'normally' cheaper to just stack 2-point CLs instead of buying limited 5-points (which are in the end NOT cheaper than 2-points, but worse, since you could just not sweep and get +10 OCV in that case).

 

Also, I always believed that 2-point CLs are way too cheap if you limit yourself to one attack (which by the way might be very strong, since you got points to spare. If you run against AP-Limits (which are still a band-aid-solution), then go and buy Find weakness and Combat Levels for DC).

 

Back on topic: I would also go with 5 point levels limited by -2 to -3 (real cost: 1.66~ to 1.25 and cheaper than 2-point levels).

only my weapon of choice: -1

only for sweep penalty offset: -1 to -2

 

I think Sean has these in huge amounts. Weapon of choice: answering questions on the hero boards. He sweeps through them.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Sweep Combat Levels

 

Yeah, but that does not change the fact that it's 'normally' cheaper to just stack 2-point CLs instead of buying limited 5-points (which are in the end NOT cheaper than 2-points, but worse, since you could just not sweep and get +10 OCV in that case).

 

Also, I always believed that 2-point CLs are way too cheap if you limit yourself to one attack (which by the way might be very strong, since you got points to spare. If you run against AP-Limits (which are still a band-aid-solution), then go and buy Find weakness and Combat Levels for DC).

 

Back on topic: I would also go with 5 point levels limited by -2 to -3 (real cost: 1.66~ to 1.25 and cheaper than 2-point levels).

only my weapon of choice: -1

only for sweep penalty offset: -1 to -2

 

I think Sean has these in huge amounts. Weapon of choice: answering questions on the hero boards. He sweeps through them.

 

I may aim at lots of things, but I'm not sure how much I actually hit

[Kdansky]

Re: Sweep Combat Levels

 

Yes, sounds like sweep to me Lot's of attacking, not so much hitting.

 

Btw did it not occur to anyone that attacking twice for double end (oh no! How completely unpayable) and a meager -2 (less than 5cp in combat levels) is actually rather powerful for very, very, very low cost? I'm just thinking that a combat level should only be used on one attack per turn, that would make sense. Attack 6 times and your OCV will drop, no matter how many CLs you have (well, you'd need 6x6x2= 72 of them, rather unlikely)

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Sweep Combat Levels

 

Yeah, but that does not change the fact that it's 'normally' cheaper to just stack 2-point CLs instead of buying limited 5-points (which are in the end NOT cheaper than 2-points, but worse, since you could just not sweep and get +10 OCV in that case).

It does however answer the OP's statement of

 

I don't want to be able to easily hit earlier on - just not lose out to the cumulative penalty.

 

His operating premise in regards to Sweep is flawed, and thus everything that follows after it should be reconsidered by him. Basically the entire "problem" he is trying to solve isn't real.

[Kdansky]

Re: Sweep Combat Levels

 

I don't think his idea is flawed. Making a character be able to hit 3 times decently but not able to perfectly hit once if only attacking once is a very valid concern. If a player asked me: "Hey, I want to be able to sweep 5 enemies, I'm buying 20 combat levels à 2 points" I would definitely not allow that. Because he *will* use these 20 levels without sweeping. And +20 OCV is more than enough for 100% hit

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Sweep Combat Levels

 

I don't think his idea is flawed. Making a character be able to hit 3 times decently but not able to perfectly hit once if only attacking once is a very valid concern. If a player asked me: "Hey' date=' I want to be able to sweep 5 enemies, I'm buying 20 combat levels à 2 points" I would definitely not allow that. Because he *will* use these 20 levels without sweeping. And +20 OCV is more than enough for 100% hit [/quote']

 

Allowing PSL's to work for sweep fixes this.

Disallowing them kinda leads to this sort of weirdness, and whats weirder is your hypothetical +20 with Sweep guy actually can't launch a single Strike worth a damn... he HAS to Sweep to be able to use his levels...

Like Fessik, I guess... "It's been so long since I fought against only one person.."

[Guest Cougar]

Re: Sweep Combat Levels

 

I don't think his idea is flawed. Making a character be able to hit 3 times decently but not able to perfectly hit once if only attacking once is a very valid concern. If a player asked me: "Hey' date=' I want to be able to sweep 5 enemies, I'm buying 20 combat levels à 2 points" I would definitely not allow that. Because he *will* use these 20 levels without sweeping. And +20 OCV is more than enough for 100% hit [/quote']

 

The point Shrike was making is that with Sweep, you don't get 1 attack at regular OCV, the next at -2 OCV, the next at -4 and so on. According to the FAQ, the penalty is calculated by how many people you're Sweeping and applied to all attacks. In the OP's example, that's -8 right from the start.

 

Thus the OP's assertion that he doesn't want the first attack to be at +8 to normal OCV is flawed. Because the first attack isn't made at full OCV. It's made at whatever the appropriate penalty is, as are all the attacks in the Sweep.

 

Also, if someone buys 2 pt levels in Sweep (a single maneuver), then the character *can't* use them without sweeping.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Sweep Combat Levels

 

I don't think his idea is flawed. Making a character be able to hit 3 times decently but not able to perfectly hit once if only attacking once is a very valid concern. If a player asked me: "Hey' date=' I want to be able to sweep 5 enemies, I'm buying 20 combat levels à 2 points" I would definitely not allow that. Because he *will* use these 20 levels without sweeping. And +20 OCV is more than enough for 100% hit [/quote']

 

As far as how to do a Whirlwind style attack in general, there are many ways. Levels bought with Sweep only work with sweep. Problem solved. Don't like that? Ok, buy a No Range Radius Hole In the Middle Power. Don't like that? Ok, buy an Autofire HKA or HA Power. etc

 

However the PREMISE of "something is wrong with sweep because you hit the first guy super easily, how do I fix this" is clearly based on a misunderstanding of the rules.

[braincraft]

Re: Sweep Combat Levels

 

The point Shrike was making is that with Sweep, you don't get 1 attack at regular OCV, the next at -2 OCV, the next at -4 and so on. According to the FAQ, the penalty is calculated by how many people you're Sweeping and applied to all attacks. In the OP's example, that's -8 right from the start.

 

Thus the OP's assertion that he doesn't want the first attack to be at +8 to normal OCV is flawed. Because the first attack isn't made at full OCV. It's made at whatever the appropriate penalty is, as are all the attacks in the Sweep.

 

Also, if someone buys 2 pt levels in Sweep (a single maneuver), then the character *can't* use them without sweeping.

 

The problem is that someone with 20 2pt levels in Sweep is more accurate when making 2 attacks in a Sweep than someone with 15 5pt levels in HtH making one attack.

[casualplayer]

Re: Sweep Combat Levels

 

If it helps any, I remember the first time I read the Sweep/Rapid Fire rule and going "why the heck would anyone ever get Autofire anymore?" Then I reread both. Then I reread them again and I finally got it. With Sweep every additional attack assesses a cumulative - 2 modifier to each and every attack made.

 

It's not well explained in the rules and many a player has misinterpreted them that way.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Sweep Combat Levels

 

Allowing PSL's to work for sweep fixes this.

Disallowing them kinda leads to this sort of weirdness, and whats weirder is your hypothetical +20 with Sweep guy actually can't launch a single Strike worth a damn... he HAS to Sweep to be able to use his levels...

Like Fessik, I guess... "It's been so long since I fought against only one person.."

Exactly! Just go ahead and use PSL's. There's no good reason why they shouldn't be allowed with Sweep penalties.

 

Remember, however, that PSL's cost 3 points for All Attacks, 2 points for a "tight group" or 1.5 points for a single attack or weapon. Are you going to be sweeping *only* with your sword? Then 15 points will buy you 10 PSLs to counter the penalties for Sweeping with up to 6 attacks. (Unless you decide that each PSL can only apply to one attack.)

 

A 2-point CSL with your sword will give you +1 OCV with *anything* that you decide to do with your sword: basic strike, haymaker, club weapon (flat of the blade), sweep, martial maneuvers, cover, and even block.

[Spidey88]

Re: Sweep Combat Levels

 

The problem is that someone with 20 2pt levels in Sweep is more accurate when making 2 attacks in a Sweep than someone with 15 5pt levels in HtH making one attack.

 

Again, the way to deal with this would be to apply the 0-point Lim "Cannot exceed normal OCV" to those 2-point levels. That way you could hit 2 guys as easily as one, but not better!

[Sean Waters]

Re: Sweep Combat Levels

 

Arguably we should be looking at WHY levels of less than 5 points cannot be limited - we should be delving into the philosophy behind the rule.

 

The answer I often comfort myself with is that such levels are ALREADY limited. Of course this is rubbish - I am confident that it never actually worked out like this - but it is an interesting exercise anyway.

 

An example: 5 point skill with all melee combat, only useable with a group of attacks (-1/2) is a 3 point level.

 

If you wanted to tack on an extra -1 in limitations to the 5 point level, the cost would be 5/2.5 or 2 points. If you use a -1 limitation on a 3 point level, the cost is 3/2=1 point.

 

An imperfect example because really, if that were the case, we should be starting with the only level that matters: 10 point levels, and, for instance getting to 5 point levels with 'Only for melee combat' -1. Of course the active point cost of levels rapidly becomes enormous. Maybe not a bad thing: you would not be able to buy more than 6 similar levels in a 60 AP game. I could live with that.

 

I've been thinking about levels a lot recently, in relation to their vaule compared to characteristics and their overall structure and pricing, and I don't think it would be a bad idea at all to look very carefully at them, with a view to creating a little more internal harmony in the system.

 

I might start a thread, or I might not. There's been quite a bit of sniping recently, and I'm not sure I fancy being a target.

 

EDIT: I did start the thread and everyone has been the very picture of good humour and civility. Shows what I know

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Sweep Combat Levels

 

Again' date=' the way to deal with this would be to apply the 0-point Lim "Cannot exceed normal OCV" to those 2-point levels. That way you could hit 2 guys as easily as one, but not [u']better![/u]

(I assume you mean "-0 Lim".) Why would anyone want to limit otherwise very useful skill levels so severely for no point savings?

 

20 2-point skill levels +20 with any one attack, in this case Sweep, but just as easily the sword type you use most of the time. I sweep 2 people, and get +18 against both. I sweep against 5 people, and I get +10 against them all. I sweep against 11 people and I get +0 against them all. I sweep 12 people and get -2 against them all. All for 40 Points.

 

Or

 

20 2-point skill levels with Sweep, -0 Only to Offset Sweep Penalties. I sweep 2 people at +0, 5 people at +0, 11 people at +0, 12 people at -2, etc. For the same 40 points!

 

It's easy to see which is the better buy.

[SableWyvern]

Re: Sweep Combat Levels

 

It's easy to see which is the better buy.

 

I betcha it's also easy to guess which would would be most likely to find my GM veto power being applied to it.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Sweep Combat Levels

 

I betcha it's also easy to guess which would would be most likely to find my GM veto power being applied to it.

20 CSLs may be a bit much, but they are standard skill levels. How many of them is too many? How many are few enough that the GM wouldn't veto them? How many plain old, by-the-book, combat skill levels would be acceptible? Three? At least. Five? Maybe.

 

As was recenty mentioned on another thread, maybe there should be an optional "Normal Skill Maximum" rule available for some games.

[SableWyvern]

Re: Sweep Combat Levels

 

20 CSLs may be a bit much, but they are standard skill levels. How many of them is too many? How many are few enough that the GM wouldn't veto them? How many plain old, by-the-book, combat skill levels would be acceptible? Three? At least. Five? Maybe.

 

As was recenty mentioned on another thread, maybe there should be an optional "Normal Skill Maximum" rule available for some games.

 

Discuss your character concept with me and explain what it is you're trying to achieve, and we'll come to an arrangement that best enables you to both realise your objective and ensure that the character integrates well into the campaign as a whole.*

 

One of the things I quickly realised about HERO is that fixed, objective limits on anything aren't really the way to go, and that context is what matters. Although, with only a couple of exceptions, I am still using hard AP caps.

 

*That's rhetorical, btw, unless you're actually planning to join my current game.