WWYCD: The New Recruit. . .

[GoldenAge]

Re: WWYCD: The New Recruit. . .

 

Bastion to the team - "Give the kid a chance on probationary status... And make him wear this Empathy Collar I just invented... Joking. But maybe he should change his name from Dark Avenger to just Avenger, no?"

 

Then to Dark Avenger:

 

"Understand DA... If you put yourself on the wrong side of the Epic Alliance it'll get real nasty for you."

 

"Now get down to my lab for a complete physical. Don't worry, everyone gets one. Just disrobe and put on the paper jammies you'll find on the main table. I'll be down in a minute. When we're done in the lab you'll be spending a few hours in the WOMB... Don't worry, it won't hurt a bit. Really, I promise."

 

"Oh, bye the way... Welcome to the Epic Alliance!"

 

After Dark Avenger has taken the elevator to the sub basement under the supervision of Malloy...

 

"Eclipse, I think we'll need a full run-down on this guys background, heroic and otherwise. Use all your resources and make it fast. I want to know everything about Dark Avenger before we put him in front of Sidney. If she gets in his mind and pulls out something unexpected, we could all suffer in our next training session. Of course, the Viore Foundation will undoubtedly compensate your agency for everything. Good hunting Brian."

[Zeropoint]

Re: WWYCD: The New Recruit. . .

 

Comic, I have to ask: do your characters put these chips into police officers? Members of the military? Do they track down citizens who have used lethal force to defend themselves against lethal force and chip them, too?

 

If not, why not? Why is someone who kills in defense of others while wearing a costume deserving of a fate worse than death, while someone who kills in defense of others while wearing a uniform isn't worth thinking about?

 

If so, why should these characters not be considered supervillains?

[Comic]

Re: WWYCD: The New Recruit. . .

 

Comic, I have to ask: do your characters put these chips into police officers? Members of the military? Do they track down citizens who have used lethal force to defend themselves against lethal force and chip them, too?

 

If not, why not? Why is someone who kills in defense of others while wearing a costume deserving of a fate worse than death, while someone who kills in defense of others while wearing a uniform isn't worth thinking about?

 

If so, why should these characters not be considered supervillains?

Good questions, all.

 

It's my understanding that the ratio of police officers who have actually drawn their weapons in the line of duty is small.

 

Of those, the ratio who pull the trigger, not large.

 

Of those, the ratio who kill, again not large.

 

Of those, the ones who have done it so often as to qualify for a pattern of behavior, really tiny ratio.

 

So a small, small, small, tiny ratio of people in your list would even be comparable to Dark Avenger, at least to my understanding of how my character works.

 

Then there's soldiers. Some conflicts are too big for even superheroes to end easily. They do what they can within the scale they can manage.

 

And then there's Thomas Payne, the American pamphleteer, revolutionary and patriot who just about finished the philosophical debate on the topic of who has the right to bear arms.

 

While Payne held that there is a time to take up arms against a tyrant, he also concluded and brilliantly defended the position that the state is the sole legitimate agent of violence in a democracy. You'll have to read Payne for the details and draw your own conclusions about how self-defense fits into the discussion, because frankly it'd take too long to go into and not really my issue.

 

Dark Avenger, or so it comes across on my reading of the scenario, is not an agent of the state, but a private citizen acting on his own behalf and under his own direction.

 

Even for vigilantes who reject the authority of the government, there is a sound Paynesian argument for regarding agents of the government as having a method of controlling their lethal impulses. That is, the agents are managed, inspected, policed, and serve within tight constraints.

 

While the superheroes might object to excesses of the government or of individuals abusing their position within the bureaucracy, they would be able to distinguish the one from the other, and decide how they would censure each. So, even the ones comparable to Dark Avenger might not get similar treatment. Or they might.

 

Dr. Diavolo, another player's character, literally can drop a living person body and soul into Hell with a word and a wave of his hand, and has the personal influence in that nether dimension to assure that a person he transports there will live through the experience, though not enough influence to ensure they'll return whole or sane. To him, Dark Avenger is just another thug with a gun, to be used to serve Diavolo's will as it pleases him.

 

What separates Diavolo from a supervillain other than the geas that causes him to lose all magic power if he ever personally takes a human life, I'm not sure I could say. However, he's hardly much different from the way Dr. Strange has behaved in the past, or how Iron Man behaved in Civil War, or how Cloak's power works.

 

There's nothing that makes Dr. Diavolo prevent others from killing -- sometimes he even does use others to kill for him, but I'm betting his player would find Dark Avenger's attitude annoying enough to perform a permanent transformation into a man who drops his drawers and sings "I'm a Little Teapot" while performing a rude dance whenever he sees a gun, based on past uses of this power.

 

Not my character, but a better example of what I mean than my own characters have ever approached.

 

The rest of the team..

 

Shosen, a strict Buddhist, will never take a life for religious reasons. Also, Shosen feels killing is sloppy and inharmonious, aesthetically, preferring the challenge of utterly humiliating a foe while being as effective as if she were a killer in controlling the situation.

 

Weapons Master, whose karmic path causes anything he picks up to become so powerfully lethal it might harm any target when swung, thrust or thrown, and who also is blessed with such outlandish accuracy that he can achieve with trick shots non-lethal effects far more impressive than mere death.. well, he hates paperwork, and can't afford the time between his busy Secret Id. and his obsessive crimefighting to sit around filing and dealing with the red tape mortalities lead to. His Code Vs. Killing has nothing to do with morality, just sloth.

 

Scarlet Spectre. As near as I can figure out, a brilliant inventor who can't stand the thought of killing anything with a face, similar to why some small children become vegetarians. But he's rationalized his squeamishness into an obsessive-compulsive pseudoreligious doctrine, and Chipping criminals is one of his primary attacks. He gave Dr. Diavolo the teapot idea.

 

My own character at least has the decency to tell Dark Avenger about it before it leads to a humiliating public display.

[Zeropoint]

Re: WWYCD: The New Recruit. . .

 

It's my understanding that the ratio of police officers who have actually drawn their weapons in the line of duty is small.

 

Of those, the ratio who pull the trigger, not large.

 

Of those, the ratio who kill, again not large.

 

Of those, the ones who have done it so often as to qualify for a pattern of behavior, really tiny ratio.

 

So a small, small, small, tiny ratio of people in your list would even be comparable to Dark Avenger, at least to my understanding of how my character works.

 

What about SWAT teams? What about those few cops that HAVE had to use lethal force more than once? Those officers are in the same place as "Dark Avenger"--why haven't they been chipped? For that matter, why do you wait until AFTER someone kills, if killing is so bad? Every police officer who carries a gun is clearly demonstrating his or her willingness to kill in defense of himself or others--how is that acceptable?

 

 

And then there's Thomas Payne, the American pamphleteer, revolutionary and patriot who just about finished the philosophical debate on the topic of who has the right to bear arms.

 

While Payne held that there is a time to take up arms against a tyrant, he also concluded and brilliantly defended the position that the state is the sole legitimate agent of violence in a democracy. You'll have to read Payne for the details and draw your own conclusions about how self-defense fits into the discussion, because frankly it'd take too long to go into and not really my issue.

 

You can make all the philosophical arguments you want, but the fact remains that the state is, in practical terms, very nearly never going to be there to protect me if someone attempts to do violence to me, leaving it up to me to defend myself. Also, it has been ruled that the police do NOT have a responsibility to protect individuals, just society as a whole--it's perfectly legal for the police to decide not to protect you in any way. If Payne says I don't have the right to defend myself, they Payne is an idiot and he can bite me, and you can quote me on that. I will consider the state to be the sole acceptable agent of violence when the state assigns me a personal 24/7 bodyguard, ready to defend me. However, I will have joined the freedom fighters before that happens.

 

As far as the characters go, I wouldn't be comfortable gaming in a group with Dr. Diavolo. I'd be giving HIM the severe warnings about toeing the line or facing the consequences, and if the GM had allowed him to be a character that the rest of the group had no hope of restraining or defeating by force, I'd opt out of the game. Scarlet Specter also doesn't sound like someone I'd want on my team.

 

And frankly, I don't understand the way you seem to consider that sending someone to hell, literally, for using lethal force to defend an innocent is perfectly acceptable, whereas using lethal force to defend an innocent is considered to be an utterly unjustifiable and irredeemably evil act.

[Metaphysician]

Re: WWYCD: The New Recruit. . .

 

And thus, I see the confusion. Your not part of a superhero team. Thus, the scenario is impossible, as Dark Avenger would never be so *insane* as to consider joining that posse of borderline or otherwise psychotics.

 

He might kill Dr Diavolo though.

 

Oh, btw, a magical geas wouldn't be a Psych Limit, it'd be a Physical Limit.

[Zeropoint]

Re: WWYCD: The New Recruit. . .

 

A supervillain team with Strong/Total CVKs. Yeah, it makes a weird sort of sense now, but that's just not an idea that comes readily to mind.

[Comic]

Re: WWYCD: The New Recruit. . .

 

Payne is an idiot and he can bite me' date=' and you can quote me on that.[/quote']

 

Done.

 

Though I believe Jefferson said the very same words, first. Not a popular guy among people who actually met him, as I understand it.

 

Tell you what, on your SWAT question, ask someone who's ever been in that situation how many bad guys they've killed in the line of duty. Since I'm sure they'll warmly regard the opportunity to chat about that frequent occurence in their life.

 

Oh, the laughs you'll share with them as they regale you with stories, I expect. Because, you know, it's something so common they'll be overflowing with mirthful tales of neato keen shots they've taken and the expression on some criminal's mug when his brain got switched off.

 

If you're talking about you, the real you, and your gun, the real you's real gun, in the real world, I have no comment, make no judgement, draw no similarities between your real story and this roleplaying character "Dark Avenger" who has gone out of his way to be in the actual position and situation that he has taken multiple lives multiple times. The two have no logical connection in my mind, and I'm not really prepared to talk about the real life choices people make in a forum on comic-book-inspired superheroes.

 

Dr. Diavolo's backstory was not known to the characters at the time. To the rest of us, he was just this guy who knew magic and helped fight the good fight. Do you see a lot of detective-like skills among the others on the team to figure out he was pulling an Ozymandias?

 

Scarlet Spectre came off as no more eccentric than Reed Richards, early Tony Stark, or Dr. McQuark, in roleplay. He, like Dr. D, didn't go out of his way to explain how his 'pacifier dart' worked, and like many gullible people, the members of the team weren't the type to look a gift-horse in the mouth. Well, not until after Dr. Diavolo revealed his master plan.

 

Genius is often regarded as the flip side of madness, and we were unlucky enough to have two of them on our team.

 

Shosen, WM and my character were more run-of-the-mill, but our GM required us to understand that a Psych. Lim. at the 20 pts or greater level was not a way to get free points or a cookie-cutter shorthand to avoid coming up with a backstory, but was a roleplaying obligation to integrate into the character with originality and meaning relevant to the character and the campaign. I believe this made for better characters, and better roleplay, if somewhat eccentric in nature.

 

And who is Dark Avenger to call anyone names? He's managed while not in the military, on a police force, or in any branch of government to take multiple human lives. The individual instances notwithstanding, either he's doomed by fate, or Dark Avenger likes it. I'm guessing he named himself, so I'd bet on the latter.

[Comic]

Re: WWYCD: The New Recruit. . .

 

He might kill Dr Diavolo though.

 

That was what the GM intended to be the test of the character's belief in their convictions: after all the stuff Dr. Diavolo did, would we kill him.

 

I admit to some small glee at the picture of Dark Avenger repeatedly singing the Teapot song while mooning the world, and somehow shooting Diavolo over and over again.

 

Oh, btw, a magical geas wouldn't be a Psych Limit, it'd be a Physical Limit.

 

I think on his sheet it was listed as a Susceptibility, since it removed all his powers. But it's not like I got to see the 'real' sheet until very late in the campaign.

 

Some other borderline psychotics who don't kill:

 

Batman, "I broke his pelvis with that punch. One day, he'll walk again, but he'll never steal a television set again."

 

Superman, "This planet has all the natural resources you'll need to live out a full life, and contemplate your crimes. Alone." Also.. Phantom Zone, anyone?

 

Zorro, "Alcalde, I could kill you, but that would not give me nearly the satisfaction of knowing you wear my mark upon your face as you explain to the Court in Madrid how I humiliated you and sent you packing." Slash. Slash. Slash.

 

Flash, "I've run backwards around the world faster than the speed of light, turning back time, and made it so they never even existed."

[Kal'El Wayne]

Re: WWYCD: The New Recruit. . .

 

Sir Johnstone doesn't see what the problem is. This person who killed bad guys, has been said to have been justified every time by a court of law. Not to mention the fact that the only people he has killed are evil doers of the worst sort who would have escaped and killed again if he'd let them go.