WWYCD: The New Recruit. . .

[Metaphysician]

Note: this is only applicable for individual characters who have CvK ( Strong ) or better, and/or are members of teams wherein the majority of other members are such. This is also really only applicable in non-Silver Age settings.

 

One day, your super team encounters Dark Avenger, a superhero in your campaign setting. He wishes to join your team, so that he has comrades in the fight against supervillainy and crime. By reputation, he's a skilled, capable hero, within an ability range to fit in with your team. However, his reputation is also as a hero who doesn't have a problem with using deadly force. He's not reckless or psychotic, and he doesn't go around executing criminals vigilante-style*, but he has no problem dealing with a hostage-taking enemy by simply killing him before he can harm the hostage. However, to date, every usage of lethal force on his part has been judged reasonable by law enforcement authorities.

 

If confronted on this matter, he shrugs and says that if he's accepted into a team, he's willing to follow the team's rules of engagement, at least when on team time. The whole point of being on a team is to have extra backup and options after all.

 

WWYCD?

 

*Well, there is one rumor. . . but there's no solid proof, and it involved a really hideous villain with a genre-excessive body count, so no one has particularly investigated into it to date.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: WWYCD: The New Recruit. . .

 

Black Cat would tell him that if he were on the team, that he would have to toe the line both on and off team duty - and the actions of the individuals reflect on the team. No Killing is allowed. She would also inform him that if he did join the team and kill, she would make it her personal responsibility to find him, thrash him, and turn him over to the police.

This has extra force, as she "went bad" and killed someone, and when she was herself again, turned herself in, and pleaded no contest.

[assault]

Re: WWYCD: The New Recruit. . .

 

If he's willing to follow the team's rules of engagement, (and we are looking for new members), why not?

 

This is basically the "Wolverine in the X-Men" (back when the X-Men were good) situation.

[Metaphysician]

Re: WWYCD: The New Recruit. . .

 

Note that, with the exception of one rumored, and by no means certainly true, case ( though if someone would choose to investigate that matter, they certainly can ), Dark Avenger has *not* committed any murders. He's used lethal force, but so far, the applicable law enforcement authorities are satisfied he acted reasonably.

 

If a character is in a campaign wherein that is not possible, as pretty much any usage of lethal force would draw trial, and likely conviction, then this scenario really isn't applicable ( the 'New Recruit' as described really couldn't exist in the setting ).

[jkwleisemann]

Re: WWYCD: The New Recruit. . .

 

The vast majority of them: As long as he's willing to adhere to the team's rules of engagement, they'll give him a chance. Of course, he *breaks* those rules of engagement, he's in deep, deep trouble.

 

When off team-time, he'd better be able to demonstrate that he didn't really have a choice in the matter that would have caused less bloodshed, or the fertilizer's hitting the air circulation unit. This is the most likely subject of contention.

 

Of course, the *biggest* issue of contention is probably going to be the team members who realize that they've just found themselves an appointed executioner. How does the Dark Avenger here take teammates coming up to him and giving him pointers on how to take them down if he ever has to?

 

Of course, this also depends on how he does it. Is this a case of "Batman with guns" or a Wolverine sort who has markedly little real choice about whether or not they use lethal ordnance thanks to the fact that that's all they've got that'll make a dent, or are we talking about a Superman sort who has numerous options to make a non-lethal situation but chooses instead to go for the more permanent solution?

[jkwleisemann]

Re: WWYCD: The New Recruit. . .

 

Oh, and regarding that rumor... it depends on who it was. Most folks would probably ask him about it and do a bit of investigating regarding the circumstances, but... well, if it was the Monster:

 

Kluge: "So, are you actually the one who killed the Monster? You are? I want to have your children!" *pauses, realizes she's speaking through a ton of remote-operated steel* "Err... that *is* actually physically possible. It's a long story, and you'd enjoy the process far more than it might look right now, honest."

[Metaphysician]

Re: WWYCD: The New Recruit. . .

 

Of course, this also depends on how he does it. Is this a case of "Batman with guns" or a Wolverine sort who has markedly little real choice about whether or not they use lethal ordnance thanks to the fact that that's all they've got that'll make a dent, or are we talking about a Superman sort who has numerous options to make a non-lethal situation but chooses instead to go for the more permanent solution?

 

I'm assuming that Dark Avenger is more the first type. Whatever powers or skills he has, he's not capable of casually handling any situation nonlethally. If confronted on this matter, his response is basically. . .

 

"Yes, I could attempt to knock out the hostage-taker. . . and I'd probably succeed. I'm not so arrogant as to think I'll *always* succeed."

 

"Of course, if I have a speedster or a telekinetic around at the time, then this issue won't come up, yes?"

[The Main Man]

Re: WWYCD: The New Recruit. . .

 

Bubble Baron is more of a solo hero who operates as a reserve for the Fantastic Uniters.

 

He would gladly take out Dark Avenger if he is out of line in off-team duty, but he would mostly just hinder him with sticky gum while trying to take out the villain as safely as possible.

[Comic]

Re: WWYCD: The New Recruit. . .

 

Hrm.

 

"Look, DA, you don't mind me calling you DA, do you? Anyway, look, I'm fine with your judgement in these situations and all. A long-time admirer. But you gotta understand, while we've been talking, the rest of the team have inserted a device just under your medulla oblongata using their various skills and powers, and if its AI circuitry detects you about to take a sentient life, well.. let's just say you'll find out there's worse things than being dead. Just so you know where they stand on the whole free will and killing people issue."

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: WWYCD: The New Recruit. . .

 

War Wolf: "Not a chance. Not. A. Chance. One more time, just in case you're having a buildup of earwax, NOT A CHANCE."

 

Vixen: As a Ravenswood student, inapplicable.

[Kevin Schultz]

Re: WWYCD: The New Recruit. . .

 

Jake the Troll - N/A - he's pretty big proponent of not killing stuff, but he's got the power resources to have that option. But he's not really a team player, and is more a reserve guy anyway.

 

Icon - She's on a teen squad, so we're talking about a teenaged killer. At that point, she'd realize that this dude has WAY more issues than she does, and probably would not want him around.

 

Shinji Miromoto - has something akin to a CvK, but it's more of the "follow the Buddhist tennents of enlightenment", which includes pacifism. Shinji is also highly trained in working with psychotic loonies (he was formally trained in how to be a Loyal Lieutenant to various supervillians), so someone this controlled is actually a pleasent change of pace.

 

Widower - N/A - doesn't have the CvK.

[Metaphysician]

Re: WWYCD: The New Recruit. . .

 

Hrm.

 

"Look, DA, you don't mind me calling you DA, do you? Anyway, look, I'm fine with your judgement in these situations and all. A long-time admirer. But you gotta understand, while we've been talking, the rest of the team have inserted a device just under your medulla oblongata using their various skills and powers, and if its AI circuitry detects you about to take a sentient life, well.. let's just say you'll find out there's worse things than being dead. Just so you know where they stand on the whole free will and killing people issue."

 

Isn't this a tad contradictory?

[assault]

Re: WWYCD: The New Recruit. . .

 

Isn't this a tad contradictory?

 

It certainly implies a degree of ruthlessness that makes the whole CvK thing unlikely, or at least arbitrary.

[Comic]

Re: WWYCD: The New Recruit. . .

 

It certainly implies a degree of ruthlessness that makes the whole CvK thing unlikely' date=' or at least arbitrary.[/quote']

 

You've heard of PETA, then?

[Checkmate]

Re: WWYCD: The New Recruit. . .

 

Apex - Yeah sure you can join us, just don't hurt anyone too bad or I'll have to hit you and stuff.

[Zeropoint]

Re: WWYCD: The New Recruit. . .

 

Special Agent Trent would feel right at home with this guy, and not see any problem with his attitude or methods. Trent works for the FBI. FBI agents carry guns. Some FBI agents are trained as snipers. Trent understand the concept of justifiable homicide. So does every law enforcement agent who ever carried a gun.

 

"Look, DA, you don't mind me calling you DA, do you? Anyway, look, I'm fine with your judgement in these situations and all. A long-time admirer. But you gotta understand, while we've been talking, the rest of the team have inserted a device just under your medulla oblongata using their various skills and powers, and if its AI circuitry detects you about to take a sentient life, well.. let's just say you'll find out there's worse things than being dead. Just so you know where they stand on the whole free will and killing people issue."

 

As a human being, I find this utterly reprehensible. As a player, I'd be tempted to walk out of a game where something like this happened to my character. Also, any character or group of characters who would do something like this have completely lost any moral high ground and are much, much worse than the man who has committed NO crimes OR any morally wrong acts.

[Comic]

Re: WWYCD: The New Recruit. . .

 

Special Agent Trent would feel right at home with this guy' date=' and not see any problem with his attitude or methods.[/quote']

 

Really?

 

Many in law enforcement have a definitely negative opinion of vigilantes, especially armed vigilantes, and especially armed vigilantes who have a pattern of killing, at least in my albeit limited experience.

 

Even though it's perhaps unfair, there's a definite attitude toward fellow law enforcement officers with a track record of shooting incidents, too.

 

Trent works for the FBI. FBI agents carry guns. Some FBI agents are trained as snipers. Trent understand the concept of justifiable homicide. So does every law enforcement agent who ever carried a gun.

 

And yet, the ones who are eager to use those options are not well-loved among their fellows, from what I've heard.

 

As a human being, I find this utterly reprehensible.

 

Agreed. This action by a group of anonymous vigilantes with superhuman skills and powers represents an extreme and unquestionably illegitimate violation of the Dark Avenger, Scourge of crime, Executioner of the Unconvicted.

 

As a player, I'd be tempted to walk out of a game where something like this happened to my character.

 

I've had similar feelings about surprise perceived violations of PC's -- they weren't always real, more often just what seemed to be happening in the heat of the action.

 

Never seen it happen when someone does something like this to NPCs, and rarely when done to other people's characters. Maybe that's more commentary than is needed.

 

Also, any character or group of characters who would do something like this have completely lost any moral high ground and are much, much worse than the man who has committed NO crimes OR any morally wrong acts.

 

A group of anonymous costumed superbeings operating outside the law have moral high ground?

 

If anyone involved in the scenario really cared what counted as crime, or as moral, would they really be masked vigilantes operating outside the law?

[BcAugust]

Re: WWYCD: The New Recruit. . .

 

If anyone involved in the scenario really cared what counted as crime, or as moral, would they really be masked vigilantes operating outside the law?

 

Actually, all of my characters follow the law to some(Cyrande is a bizzare case, as she had diplomatic immunity, but followed her own planet's law) extent, or live in superhero universes where superheroes are covered under the law. In fact, my current high level character, Nox, started out as a Public ID superhero and worked for the city government of Chicago, and currently has recognition as a hero in a fair amount of the countries on Earth.

 

Heck, the starting premise even states he was legally cleared for his shootings. But really, if you don't think mentally torturing someone "worse then death" for even thinking about killing isn't worse then shooting someone when it's a choice between them or innocent lives, I don't know what to say.

[Cold Steel]

Re: WWYCD: The New Recruit. . .

 

Shadow-Hawk: As a lone hero more or less, he wouldn't mind a little "curbstone justice" from his allies until Dark Avenger puts innocent people at risk.

 

Then DA will get a taste of his own medicine.

 

Nautika: will consider DA's way too harsh but will give him a chance under supervision.

[Comic]

Re: WWYCD: The New Recruit. . .

 

A team where the majority of characters have Strong or higher Psych. Lims, all pointing the same way, is an opportunity for truly reprehensible excesses.

 

Be poor roleplaying for it to only come out as some sort of feeble, namby-pamby, softie-squishy, touchy-feelie passivism. Heroes who don't kill are no less extreme, brutal, willing to violate another's rights and freedoms, aggressive, capable or competent than heroes who do kill.

 

If a guy in a non-Silver Age supers universe, with all its many alternatives to killing attacks available, seems wedded to the idea of slaughter of unconvicted suspects at the drop of a hat, and he happens to wander into the den of those with equal strength of conviction in the opposite direction and not protect himself adequately, then he's a fool, and brought it on himself, no?

 

This outcome would be his fault, and he'd be an utter hypocrite to cry foul.

 

It's a hell of a thing to kill a man. You take away all he's got, and all he's ever gonna have.

 

But to impose on a man a better conscience than his own? Man, how mean is that?

[Metaphysician]

Re: WWYCD: The New Recruit. . .

 

A team where the majority of characters have Strong or higher Psych. Lims, all pointing the same way, is an opportunity for truly reprehensible excesses.

 

Be poor roleplaying for it to only come out as some sort of feeble, namby-pamby, softie-squishy, touchy-feelie passivism. Heroes who don't kill are no less extreme, brutal, willing to violate another's rights and freedoms, aggressive, capable or competent than heroes who do kill.

 

If a guy in a non-Silver Age supers universe, with all its many alternatives to killing attacks available, seems wedded to the idea of slaughter of unconvicted suspects at the drop of a hat, and he happens to wander into the den of those with equal strength of conviction in the opposite direction and not protect himself adequately, then he's a fool, and brought it on himself, no?

 

This outcome would be his fault, and he'd be an utter hypocrite to cry foul.

 

It's a hell of a thing to kill a man. You take away all he's got, and all he's ever gonna have.

 

But to impose on a man a better conscience than his own? Man, how mean is that?

 

Might I suggest rereading the original post? I think you may have overlooked some stuff.

[Comic]

Re: WWYCD: The New Recruit. . .

 

The question was what would my character do?

 

My character would use every contrivance, skill, method, means, power, ability, talent, lie, trickery, deception, resource and ally he could to, you know, follow his Strong or better Psych. Lim.

 

The Dark Avenger clearly falls outside of the behavior my character's Psych. Lim would find acceptable, and the Dark Avenger has stepped up and said, in a sneering, condescending, blatant way, "Sure, until your back's turned, I won't let you catch me killing, and all you have to do in exchange is let me lead you around by the nose until I feel like doing someone in."

 

The Dark Avenger's the one whose behavior is offensive, here.

 

He's the one who thinks he has a license to be judge, jury and executioner. And if he thinks because others don't share his attitude, they're weak, inept and easily manipulated, he's the one who's the fool.

 

After all, they're the ones who have proven by their behavior that they believe they have the right to be judge, jury and jailer. If he somehow missed that, his problem.

[Metaphysician]

Re: WWYCD: The New Recruit. . .

 

The question was what would my character do?

 

My character would use every contrivance, skill, method, means, power, ability, talent, lie, trickery, deception, resource and ally he could to, you know, follow his Strong or better Psych. Lim.

 

The Dark Avenger clearly falls outside of the behavior my character's Psych. Lim would find acceptable, and the Dark Avenger has stepped up and said, in a sneering, condescending, blatant way, "Sure, until your back's turned, I won't let you catch me killing, and all you have to do in exchange is let me lead you around by the nose until I feel like doing someone in."

 

The Dark Avenger's the one whose behavior is offensive, here.

 

He's the one who thinks he has a license to be judge, jury and executioner. And if he thinks because others don't share his attitude, they're weak, inept and easily manipulated, he's the one who's the fool.

 

After all, they're the ones who have proven by their behavior that they believe they have the right to be judge, jury and jailer. If he somehow missed that, his problem.

 

I would suggest, again, rereading the initial scenario.

 

Dark Avengers actions have, to date, been affirmed by legal authority as falling within the bounds of self-defense and defense-of-other. Your implication of vigilante executions is directly contrary to the established facts, which has Dark Avenger no more guilty of murder than an FBI sniper.

 

The only genre setting wherein this is not possible, the Silver Age, also doesn't have heroic torturers, either.

[Comic]

Re: WWYCD: The New Recruit. . .

 

I would suggest, again, rereading the initial scenario.

 

Dark Avengers actions have, to date, been affirmed by legal authority as falling within the bounds of self-defense and defense-of-other. Your implication of vigilante executions is directly contrary to the established facts, which has Dark Avenger no more guilty of murder than an FBI sniper.

 

The only genre setting wherein this is not possible, the Silver Age, also doesn't have heroic torturers, either.

Hey, it's your scenario, but it is my character. Not disputing those things.

 

The legal authorities in your world, nor in my character's, do not have a Strong or more Code vs. Killing. My character is a vigilante, not a legally sanctioned hero.

 

If my hero had enough faith in the FBI to let their judgement overrule his own in the matter of his strongly, most deeply held, fundamental beliefs, that would be different. But he doesn't.

 

To him, the FIB's opinion isn't worth the paper it's forged on.

 

To someone who takes the reins in his teeth and rides headlong against law, government, popular opinion and morality, convincing himself of the wrong of those with diametrically opposite views is easy, especially if they have a repeated pattern of finding themselves in the situation of acting on those opposite views, and walking away uncensured by the same authorities as vigilantes, by their definition, have rejected.

 

And there's not just one of him, but a team, all feeding off of their common practically psychotic-level obsession with not killing. That is what a Strong Psych. Lim. is, isn't it?

 

A team of people cunning, resourceful and determined enough to fight crime on those terms isn't a plate of cold pasta. The Dark Avenger is, to them, the poster child of the enemy of their cause.

 

Sure, they'd offer to build him Stun-Only weapons to replace his guns, to give him shock-batons to replace his knives, and tech-neutralizer bombs to replace his grenades, but even if it was just a convincing lie told to startle Dark Avenger into wondering if these people would tamper with his brain and torture him for killing bad guys.. they'd never let him walk all over them with his beliefs, which they do not respect and do not view as valid. Because they have Strong belief in the opposite.

 

It's not like they're participating in political discourse with respected citizens. If they believed in that sort of thing, they'd run for office.

[OctoberRaven]

Re: WWYCD: The New Recruit. . .

 

Mr. Nonsense- N/A, no CVK. He would call him a mean man though.

 

Shift- No CVK, but he'd take DA's side. "Kid, don't worry about them. They don't understand that sometimes you have to do what needs to be done. Just remember that there's a fine line between killing to save lives and being a murderer. And if you cross that line, kid, I'll be the first one to go after you."

 

Emerald Dragon- Also no CVK.

 

October Raven- "You do what you feel is necessary, and I respect that. But I cannot allow you to be an arbiter over who lives and dies".

 

Tetsuhana- No CVK, but won't use lethal force on someone not using lethal force. So he would have no problem with Dark Avenger, but will keep an eye on him.