Silly Summon Question

[Hugh Neilson]

Assume a character possesses the ability to Summon one specific person. Let's say he's a young wizard who can Summon the spirit of his departed mentor (the necromancy option presented in FREd).

 

He pays a +1 advantage for Summoning a Specific Being. Presumably, he also pays for his mentor to be Amicable, but I guess that depends on the relationship.

 

Because he can summon only that one specific spirit, and not "Spirits of the Dead" in general, it seems reasonable the character should get a limitation. After all, he can't talk to his mentor, find out he doesn't know the answer and summon up a different spirit who does. And if something has happened to the one person he can summon, he gets no benefit from these points at all. However, there is no limitation noted in the book, and this one seems pretty obvious.

 

Is it intended that summoning a single specific being is a +1 advantage over the ability to summon random creatures from a pool, or does the +1 advantage actually represent a character who can select ANY one specific being (eg. Summo the King of Valdoria, expecting King Arkon, but he has been deposed, so start again and Summon Arkon, former King of Valdoria), with a limitation applied if the character's Summon is restricted to one (or more) specific individuals?

 

Steve, once you provide the rules answer, maybe you can move this to the Discussion board to talk about how the magnitude of the limitation should be (your comments would also be appreciated).

[Steve Long]

No Limitation is available. The power to Summon a specific being is potentially so unbalancing that you pay an Advantage for it, even though it in some ways restricts the character. If you feel like it, you could think of Specific Being (+1) as an amalgam between Specific Being (+1 1/2) and Innate Restrictions Of Summoning One Person (-1/2) -- or whatever values you care to assign.

 

Moved as requested.

[Hugh Neilson]

These should be GM-defined IMO. How great it is to summon a specific being rather than generic examples depends greatly on who that specific being is.

 

If I can summon "spirits of the dead", that seems to me more powerful than "summon the spirit of a specific dead person". At least I can keep trying until I get someone with the info I want.

 

But it would definitely be advantageous to Summon the spirit of someone I know had that info.

[OddHat]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

These should be GM-defined IMO. How great it is to summon a specific being rather than generic examples depends greatly on who that specific being is.

 

If I can summon "spirits of the dead", that seems to me more powerful than "summon the spirit of a specific dead person". At least I can keep trying until I get someone with the info I want.

 

But it would definitely be advantageous to Summon the spirit of someone I know had that info.

 

"Summon Spirits of the Dead" gives you no guarantee of getting a spirit who knows anything at all. "Summon Spirit of Akahntant, Chief Librarian of the Akashic Library," guarantees you a spirit with a clearly defined list of skills and abilities that your PC probably knows. If you want to both be able to summon multiple specific beings from a list and/or general beings, advantages and/or power frameworks will let you do it.

 

It's only a disadvantage if your specific summoned target is useless in a given situation (and situations change) or you get it killed. At that point, a kind GM will let you learn how to summon someone else.

[Fireg0lem]

I've got a question to add on to this thread. Necro the Necromancer can summon any spirit of the dead less than a certain amount of spiritual strength (ie character points). He can choose whose spirit he summons (so long as he has some way of knowing). Is the way to build this with Summon, Any Spirit of the Dead (+1), Summon Specific Being (+1)? If not, what is?

[OddHat]

Originally posted by Fireg0lem

I've got a question to add on to this thread. Necro the Necromancer can summon any spirit of the dead less than a certain amount of spiritual strength (ie character points). He can choose whose spirit he summons (so long as he has some way of knowing). Is the way to build this with Summon, Any Spirit of the Dead (+1), Summon Specific Being (+1)? If not, what is?

 

That looks right to me.

[JmOz]

On the root of the issue however is the story of "Lenny"

 

Lenny is a cab driver in NY, a nice friendly guy who can do his job well, but no better or worse than a bunch of other guys.

 

Well one day he felt weird, he all of a sudden teleported (something he is not capable of doing on himself), it seems the lady he had helped one day (He had seen her in the rain and given her a free ride because she looked so miserable) was a street mage and because of his help she was able to summon him

 

Now as lenny is a specific person by the book it would require the +1, however common sense says that it should not require it, until he becomes something more extrodinry (If his taxi develops magical powers then yes)

[OddHat]

Originally posted by JmOz

On the root of the issue however is the story of "Lenny"

 

Lenny is a cab driver in NY, a nice friendly guy who can do his job well, but no better or worse than a bunch of other guys.

 

Well one day he felt weird, he all of a sudden teleported (something he is not capable of doing on himself), it seems the lady he had helped one day (He had seen her in the rain and given her a free ride because she looked so miserable) was a street mage and because of his help she was able to summon him

 

Now as lenny is a specific person by the book it would require the +1, however common sense says that it should not require it, until he becomes something more extrodinry (If his taxi develops magical powers then yes)

 

Why does common sense say that it shouldn't cost a +1 advantage for the mage to always summon Lenny? First off, he's probably a darn cheep summon to begin with, at most a 50 point character. His new master will always know what she's getting with Lenny, and won't have to risk summoning a less competent Taxi Driver. As time goes on they'll develop a relationship, and maybe a kind DM might let Lenny become more useful.

 

If she spent enough points on summon that Lenny is too weak to waste her time on, then why is she calling him? Let her start calling on someone more powerful to be her chaufer.

[JmOz]

Originally posted by OddHat

Why does common sense say that it shouldn't cost a +1 advantage for the mage to always summon Lenny?

 

Well I wil answer this by refuting each of your points in turn but simply put, as presented there is little to no extra advantage to being able to summon Lenny over a "NY Cabby"

 

Originally posted by OddHat

First off, he's probably a darn cheep summon to begin with, at most a 50 point character.

 

Your right, Lenny is probably not that expensive of a character (However I would peg him at a few points more if you include his cab as a vehicle on the sheet).

 

HOWEVER that does not matter, as the points you spend on the basic summons should determine the value of the individual in regards to point total. In otherwords if I choose to summon a 50 point fire demeon or a 50 point cab driver the points should cost the same. There should not be a penalty for "This character does not cost much"

 

Originally posted by OddHat

His new master will always know what she's getting with Lenny, and won't have to risk summoning a less competent Taxi Driver. As time goes on they'll develop a relationship, and maybe a kind DM might let Lenny become more useful.

 

Your right about not summoning a less competent, but she can also never summon a better one than Lenny either, it is similar to the standard effect where you curtail bad rolls by giveing up exceptional one. Note that the standard effect is a +0 advantage, not a +1.

 

A Kind GM might, but that is when the advantage starts to make sense, and should be added to that point. As for relationships that is called Role Playing, in my opinion that makes an excelent reason to allow Lenny as a +0 not a +1.

 

Originally posted by OddHat

If she spent enough points on summon that Lenny is too weak to waste her time on, then why is she calling him? Let her start calling on someone more powerful to be her chaufer.

 

Ahh but here is the rub of the situation, it is not a matter of wether or not he is to weak for the pionts, it is a matter of making sure the points reflect his usefulness

[OddHat]

Originally posted by JmOz

Well I wil answer this by refuting each of your points in turn but simply put, as presented there is little to no extra advantage to being able to summon Lenny over a "NY Cabby"

 

SNIP

 

HOWEVER that does not matter, as the points you spend on the basic summons should determine the value of the individual in regards to point total. In otherwords if I choose to summon a 50 point fire demeon or a 50 point cab driver the points should cost the same. There should not be a penalty for "This character does not cost much"

 

I think you missed my point. See below.

 

Originally posted by JmOz

Your right about not summoning a less competent, but she can also never summon a better one than Lenny either, it is similar to the standard effect where you curtail bad rolls by giveing up exceptional one. Note that the standard effect is a +0 advantage, not a +1.

[/b]

 

If you're not always getting the same character, you have no guarantees as far as the skills, abilities, personality or knowledge of the character that shows up are concerned. Yes, if you paid the points you'll always get a NY city cab driver, probably with minimum AK:NY City and PS: Cab Driver skills of 8 or less and the ability to take directions in English. After that, it's entirely up to the GM how much or little they want the character to be able to do. If on the other hand you've paid the points, you'll always know that Lenny has a given set of skills at a given level, as agreed upon when the character was written up. That isn't a standard effect for this power. For summon, it's a +1. If you don't like it, that's OK. Change it in your campaign.

 

Originally posted by JmOz

Ahh but here is the rub of the situation, it is not a matter of wether or not he is to weak for the pionts, it is a matter of making sure the points reflect his usefulness [/b]

 

His point costs do reflect his usefulness. There is only a small advantage to being able to summon Lenny compared to any other NY cab driver, and you'll only pay a few more points for it. There is a considerable advantage to being able to summon Asmodeus, Prince of Hell, as compared to getting just any Greater Devil, which is why you'll pay more points for that. The advantages are proportionately the same, which is why one is a +1 advantage on a 5 or 10 point summon and the other is a +1 advantage on a 100 or 200 point summon.

 

 

We're not going to agree on this, which is fine. You say that summoning Lenny is no more useful than summoning a different random 50 point cab driver every time she casts the spell. I say that the combination of always knowing what she's going to get together with the (GM's option) continuity of experience she'll build up with Lenny is worth the few extra points.

[GamePhil]

Originally posted by Steve Long

No Limitation is available. The power to Summon a specific being is potentially so unbalancing that you pay an Advantage for it, even though it in some ways restricts the character. If you feel like it, you could think of Specific Being (+1) as an amalgam between Specific Being (+1 1/2) and Innate Restrictions Of Summoning One Person (-1/2) -- or whatever values you care to assign.

 

Oh, well, I've been doing it incorrectly. Since it says "can" Summon a specific individual, I interpreted it to be that you still got a range of possibilities, but could specify which one you wanted on a given use of the Power.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by GamePhil

Oh, well, I've been doing it incorrectly. Since it says "can" Summon a specific individual, I interpreted it to be that you still got a range of possibilities, but could specify which one you wanted on a given use of the Power.

 

That, to me, makes more sense. If you don't pay the +1, well you get a 50 point NY cab driver. You don't get a 10 point NY cab driver - you paid to summon a 50 point character.

 

For a +1, you get your pick of NY cab drivers. Normally, I ask for Lenny since I know what I'm getting and I like him. But for this mission, I'm summoning "not Lenny" because I think there's a strong likelihood the cabbie won;t get out alive, and I like Lenny!

 

This implies there should be a limitation for "can only summon Lenny". Steve's suggestion was that the actual "get a specific person" advantage is higher, but reduced if you can only get that specific person. That's a rational approach as well. But why should the cost to get GRKZT the specific generic Fire Demon be double the cost to get a generic fire demon?

[OddHat]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

But why should the cost to get GRKZT the specific generic Fire Demon be double the cost to get a generic fire demon?

 

It depends on how much fire demons vary in their knowledge and abilities in your campaign. If all of them have the same powers, the same skills, and the same knowledge and experience, then summoning one specific fire demon isn't an advantage, and you shouldn't spend the points on it. OTOH, the Greater Devil Asmodeus has different skills, powers and knowledge than any other Greater Devil, despite the fact that all greater devils are built on 1000 points and share some powers in common. It is definitely an advantage to be able to summon Asmodeus is a situation where you need his specific knowledge, skills or powers. Same with Lenny. All NY city cab drivers may be built on 50 points, and all of them have roughly equivelant taxi cabs at their disposal. On the other hand, summon Lenny specifically and you know you get his Native Language: English skill and AK: New York City 13 or less. Call for a random 50 point cab driver and you may end up (GMs whim) with Achmed, who only has English: Basic Conversation and AK: New York City 8 or less, and sunk all of his other points into Iraqi soap opera related skills.

That said, I agree that allowing an additional +1/2 advantage: May Summon Any One Specific Cab Driver You Know Of would be perfectly reasonable.

[JmOz]

Thank you for finnaly starting to come around, what I am actualy proposing (Though I have not put it to word yet) is this:

 

Specific Being: +0 to +1, depending on usefulness, so Lenny the standard Cabby is worth +0, Ben Adreddii the amazing cabby might be worth +1/2, Meter Dan and his Magic cabby might be worth a +1

[OddHat]

Originally posted by JmOz

Thank you for finnaly starting to come around, what I am actualy proposing (Though I have not put it to word yet) is this:

 

Specific Being: +0 to +1, depending on usefulness, so Lenny the standard Cabby is worth +0, Ben Adreddii the amazing cabby might be worth +1/2, Meter Dan and his Magic cabby might be worth a +1

 

Nope Jim.

 

By "additional +1/2 advantage" I meant that being able to pick one specific being was worth +1, being able to pick from a list of tightly related specific beings should be worth +1 for specific beings and in addition +1/2 for the list, or a total of +1.5 for "any one specific NY cab driver." If you want Meter Dan and his Magic Cab, it sounds like he'd be built on more points than Lenny. You'll have to buy a Summon for 200 point Cab Drivers.

[GamePhil]

Originally posted by JmOz

Specific Being: +0 to +1, depending on usefulness, so Lenny the standard Cabby is worth +0, Ben Adreddii the amazing cabby might be worth +1/2, Meter Dan and his Magic cabby might be worth a +1

 

Perhaps you already mean this, but it should be dependant on the usefulness of the Advantage, not the character.

 

How to explain this? Let's say that Meter Dan is part of the Mystic Order of Cabbies (this sounds less silly if we're talking demons or unicorns or something, but I digress). Broadly speaking, they all provide the same services. Summoning your buddy Meter Dan specifically is just a role-playing thing, and therefore should not cost any more: the Summoning is only based on his cost and the Amicable Advantage, because his uniqueness as a person gives no game mechanical benefit.

 

If, however, Meter Dan is the head of the Order, or he's the only being that can provide the benefits he gives, then he has to get the +1 Advantage. It's not fair to charge the +1 Advantage to get Meter Dan if someone else can get exactly the same benefits by summoning a generic member of a type of demon, but if Meter Dan has a monopoly on Instant Transportation, Past Present of Future, then you pay more.

[JmOz]

That is essentialy what I was talking about, except I am including a sliding scale into the equation

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by OddHat

Nope Jim.

 

By "additional +1/2 advantage" I meant that being able to pick one specific being was worth +1, being able to pick from a list of tightly related specific beings should be worth +1 for specific beings and in addition +1/2 for the list, or a total of +1.5 for "any one specific NY cab driver." If you want Meter Dan and his Magic Cab, it sounds like he'd be built on more points than Lenny. You'll have to buy a Summon for 200 point Cab Drivers.

 

So for +1.5, I change from "a random NY cabbie" to "any specific NY cabbie" or from "a random head of state" to "any specific Head of State"? Are these advantages of similar value?

 

With one, I get to my destination faster. With the other, I can kidnap the head of government of any world nation whenever I want.

 

Now, I expect the base points will differ, but it seems to me the selective ability on heads of state is worth quite a bit more that selecting my cabbie. I can PHONE Lenny and ask him to specifically come and pick me up. Try calling Tony Blair and asking him how 3 o'clock works for him!

[Hugh Neilson]

The bottom line is that the unwritten corollary to the basic rule of limitations needs to be considered here.

 

"An advantage that does not actually provide an advantage does not cost points."

[GamePhil]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

"An advantage that does not actually provide an advantage does not cost points."

 

A corollary used far too infrequently.

[OddHat]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

So for +1.5, I change from "a random NY cabbie" to "any specific NY cabbie" or from "a random head of state" to "any specific Head of State"? Are these advantages of similar value?

 

With one, I get to my destination faster. With the other, I can kidnap the head of government of any world nation whenever I want.

 

Now, I expect the base points will differ, but it seems to me the selective ability on heads of state is worth quite a bit more that selecting my cabbie. I can PHONE Lenny and ask him to specifically come and pick me up. Try calling Tony Blair and asking him how 3 o'clock works for him!

 

I agree with some of this, but I'd take the opposite approach. The value of the advantage itself is the same; the difference is all in the base cost of the character summoned. Tony Blair is probably a 300 point summon or more; summoning him specifically is going to cost you 120 points (60 base +60 for the advantage), where as calling Lenny will only cost you 20 (10 base +10 for the advantage). So you did pay more to be able to kidnap a world leader than to be able to call Lenny, and you got more for it. I do agree with your next post.

[OddHat]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

The bottom line is that the unwritten corollary to the basic rule of limitations needs to be considered here.

 

"An advantage that does not actually provide an advantage does not cost points."

 

Agreed here.

[JmOz]

Originally posted by OddHat

I agree with some of this, but I'd take the oposite approach. The value of the advantage itself is the same; the difference is all in the base cost of the character summoned. Tony Blair is probably a 300 point summon or more; summoning him specifically is going to cost you 120 points (60 base +60 for the advantage), where as calling Lenny will only cost you 20 (10 base +10 for the advantage). So you did pay more to be able to kidnap a world leader than to be able to call Lenny, and you get more for it. I do agree with your next post.

 

I disagree, most head of states are going be alot less than you seem to think, 15 points in COM/PRE, 30points in perks, 30 in skills, I would be surprised if most even broke 150 points total

[OddHat]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

So for +1.5, I change from "a random NY cabbie" to "any specific NY cabbie" or from "a random head of state" to "any specific Head of State"? Are these advantages of similar value?

 

By the way, that's not what I wrote. For the base cost of summon you can gat a random NY cabbie, or a random head of state. For +1 you get one specific NY cabbie, or one specific head of state. I suggested (as a house rule) that it would be reasonable to pay +1.5 and get a choice of any specific NY cabbie or head of state. Under the official rules, I'm not sure that's possible without buying a Summon VPP, though I think that the Expanded Class advantage from FREd could be used here.

[OddHat]

Originally posted by JmOz

I disagree, most head of states are going be alot less than you seem to think, 15 points in COM/PRE, 30points in perks, 30 in skills, I would be surprised if most even broke 150 points total

 

Fair enough, that's the GM's call. He's still worth more base points than the average NY City taxi driver.