Would this require shapeshift

[ghost-angel]

Re: Would this require shapeshift

 

You are absolutely correct. If you (generic) want something, you can't claim it's "Special Effects" without heading at warp speed for Munchkinland.

 

Turn into a hawk? Pay for it. Have a "hybrid form" ? Pay for it.

 

And it definitely is simpler to have three sheets each with straight-forward powers, skills, stats, etc., than one sheet full of "except/unless/only if/etc."

 

It depends if you want to turn into a hawk, complete with birds wider vision, claws...

 

Or just want to superficially become a hawk-like object of appropriate size and flight. (Shrinking + Flight) - no claws, no expanded vision range, etc. . .

[Checkmate]

Re: Would this require shapeshift

 

Why?

 

To me this falls completely into Special Effects... Special Effect Of Shrinking: I look like a small bird.

Because it gives you a power you didn't pay for. I can't buy a force field and say the SFX is it makes me look like Grond. What about taking force field with variable SFX. Then I could use it to look like anyone I wanted to.

 

I have no problem with not going the Multiform way. I have no problem calling the SFX of shrinking turning into a hawk. If that's the way you go though, anyone that looks at you will know, you're a person that just got smaller and you look like a hawk. Remember when you use a power that costs END, it has to be OBVIOUS you've using that power unless you buy it with Invisible Effects.

 

That's my take on it anyway.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Would this require shapeshift

 

We'll just say I disagree.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Would this require shapeshift

 

Because it gives you a power you didn't pay for. I can't buy a force field and say the SFX is it makes me look like Grond. What about taking force field with variable SFX. Then I could use it to look like anyone I wanted to.

Looking like Grond, or any specific person would be the Imitation aspect of ShapeShift. Just looking like a generic hawk is not an imitation (unless perhaps the game includes a lot of individual hawks as characters). You could define you Force Field as looking like a lot of different things, for instance, you could say it looks like a shiny suit of plate armor that just magically appears when you activate the power. This isn't any additional power, it's just SFX.

[Tonio]

Re: Would this require shapeshift

 

Looking like Grond' date=' or any specific person would be the Imitation aspect of ShapeShift. Just looking like a generic hawk is not an imitation (unless perhaps the game includes a lot of individual hawks as characters). You could define you Force Field as looking like a lot of different things, for instance, you could say it looks like a shiny suit of plate armor that just magically appears when you activate the power. This isn't any additional power, it's just SFX.[/quote']

 

While I can't really find anything wrong with what you're saying, I have to wonder what use Shapeshift really is, then. I mean, why pick Shapeshift, ever, if you can pick some other power and define its SFX as changing your shape. Unless you want to look like someone specific, that is. But that's an adder to Shapeshift, not part of a plain Shapeshift.

 

So, I can buy Shapeshift to Sight, Hearing, Smell/Taste, Touch (into Knight in Shining Armor) for 19 points, costing me 2 END. Or I can buy 10 PD/ 9 ED FF, (SFX is Shining Suit of Armor appears), for 19 points, costing me 2 END. What can I do with the Shapeshift that I can't do with the FF?

[Checkmate]

Re: Would this require shapeshift

 

While I can't really find anything wrong with what you're saying, I have to wonder what use Shapeshift really is, then. I mean, why pick Shapeshift, ever, if you can pick some other power and define its SFX as changing your shape. Unless you want to look like someone specific, that is. But that's an adder to Shapeshift, not part of a plain Shapeshift.

 

So, I can buy Shapeshift to Sight, Hearing, Smell/Taste, Touch (into Knight in Shining Armor) for 19 points, costing me 2 END. Or I can buy 10 PD/ 9 ED FF, (SFX is Shining Suit of Armor appears), for 19 points, costing me 2 END. What can I do with the Shapeshift that I can't do with the FF?

Exactly, now take it even further: Add Variable SFX to your FF, and you can look like a Tall Chinese man, switch it to a short Irish lad, switch it again to a Bison. I mean why take Shapeshift at all when you have to buy silly adders like Expanded Class (instead of just humanoid) when you can just buy a Variable Effects Force Field instead?

[Alibear]

Re: Would this require shapeshift

 

I keep thinking of Mr Fantastic and his ilk; when they shrink they keep the clothes and colour scheme they are wearing. They could be in the shape of a hawk or a chair but they still look like who they are with red boots and a gold belt (or whatever)

 

Could the hawkman not sfx it in a similar fashion when he changes to the hawk form?

[Tonio]

Re: Would this require shapeshift

 

I dunno, I'd say that'd be a Limitation on Shape Shift (Can't Change Colors, -1/2).

[ghost-angel]

Re: Would this require shapeshift

 

Because all Shapeshift DOES is change your shape.

 

Shapeshift also allows for body deformation (Shapeshift:Touch); Imitation, Cellular changes.

 

Also, while I may let you change into a Hawk with Shrinking, I may also give that Hawk some distinctive feature that let's people know up close the hawk isn't quite a hawk - coloring, maybe if you have a symbol on your custom it appears on the hawks chest, something like that.

 

I just don't have issues with "Shrinking + Flight: I turn into a small bird"

 

Otherwise every superhero you've ever built that isn't just "a guy in tights" will need to buy Shapeshift. Which defeats the purpose of SFX.

 

The trick is also you can't shrink and NOT turn into a Hawk, the trade off is of course you have no hands.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Would this require shapeshift

 

Absolutely: sfx can grant minor bonuses, but not allow additional powers - if you shapeshift into a hawk you fool everyone. If it is sfx you don't fool anyone the GM doesn't want you to - and you've got no recourse. Anyone who matters will still know or be able to work out that that 'hawk' is in fact a shapeshifted hero IF you have the effect as sfx.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Would this require shapeshift

 

Exactly.

 

Flying over the city, people will see a Hawk..

Go up to Dr. Destroyer and he's going to most likely notice "Greetings Hawk Boy..." *blast*

 

You don't get anything free for becoing a Hawk, theres some benefits and some drawbacks like with any Special Effect.

[Checkmate]

Re: Would this require shapeshift

 

Err, I'm pretty sure that's exactly what I said when you said you disagreed.

 

Edit: Had to go back and check make sure I wasn't just losing my mind:

I have no problem calling the SFX of shrinking turning into a hawk. If that's the way you go though' date=' anyone that looks at you will know, you're a person that just got smaller and you look like a hawk[/quote']

[ghost-angel]

Re: Would this require shapeshift

 

Not really.

 

you said it gives you a Power you didn't pay for. It does not.

 

You look like a Hawk, to 99% of the population you're a hawk. You don't need anything else to appear hawklike.

[caris]

Re: Would this require shapeshift

 

Ok, I’m going to weigh in with my two cents on the matter.

 

First, 5th edition (both original and revised) seem to me to make Shape Shift a less desirable power than it used to be. In general I’m less inclined to use and more inclined to use Multiform in situations where I would have used it previously. I wonder if from a cost perspective if Multiform would not be the better deal than even just using Shrinking without buying Shape Shift.

 

Whether or not you need buy Shape Shift (in a game I run) is dependent both on your expectation, what I like to call the reasonable expectations of the FX, and my campaign setting that the character is playing in.

 

Shape Sift to me is all about hiding in plain sight. You might get a surprise bonus if you appear to be a sofa and suddenly attacks someone, but there are few actual mechanical bonuses or combat bonuses to using Shape Shift. It is about having people treating you as something other than you are.

 

Do you as the player, or would a reasonable person reading the character description but not the game mechanics write up, expect to be mistaken for an ordinary hawk?

 

Are there sufficient numbers of hawks in the campaign setting to make being mistaken for one provide more than a minor benefit for most of the campaign?

 

Hopefully, this clears up why in my mind in a Marvel Earth campaign neither Colossus nor Iceman would be required to buy Shape Shift, but I might require a character that turns into a rat to buy Shape Shift instead of just letting it be the FX of Shrinking, Enhanced Senses, etc.

 

Now, while I agree that the other downside aspects of the character do off-set the potential benefits. It does not follow that this means that it shouldn’t affect the mechanical build. The rule is that FX may give minor benefits and minor restrictions. If those things go above minor they should be reflected in the build. I interpret this to treat the two aspects separately not netted together. Being mistaken for a hawk is either a minor benefit or not in its own right, the loss of hands is a separate issue. Personally, whether or not I require the Shape Shift, I would require that the Shrinking take Side Effect for not having hands.

 

While I consider the interpretation that the overall impact of FX should net to minor a valid one, I look at the fact that we do three steps for calculating cost (first Base Cost, next Active Cost and third Real Cost), and that we make extensive use of Active Cost for evaluative purposes. This makes me feel that the best route for my games is to treat the benefits and downsides of FX as separate from each other.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Would this require shapeshift

 

So' date=' I can buy Shapeshift to Sight, Hearing, Smell/Taste, Touch (into Knight in Shining Armor) for 19 points, costing me 2 END.[/quote']

But you wouldn't do that unless you were really dumb and your GM utterly failed to explain the game to you. "shining armor" is a SFX of a defense power. It doesn't change your shape, so don't buy ShapeShift.

 

Or I can buy 10 PD/ 9 ED FF, (SFX is Shining Suit of Armor appears), for 19 points, costing me 2 END.

Which is what you should do, and what any good GM should advise you to do.

 

What can I do with the Shapeshift that I can't do with the FF?

You can change your shape.

 

Exactly' date=' now take it even further: Add Variable SFX to your FF, and you can look like a Tall Chinese man, switch it to a short Irish lad, switch it again to a Bison. I mean why take Shapeshift at all when you have to buy silly adders like Expanded Class (instead of just humanoid) when you can just buy a Variable Effects Force Field instead?[/quote']

"Tall Chinese man" is not an appropriate SFX for a Force Field. Why not? Because that's the whole point of Visible Power Effects. The power can be easily seen (perceived) when you use it. If I see a suit of armor suddenly appear over your body, I can reasonably conclude that your defenses just went up. But no one is going to think, "Uh-oh! A tall Chinese man! Their skin is practically bullet-proof!"

[Checkmate]

Re: Would this require shapeshift

 

"Tall Chinese man" is not an appropriate SFX for a Force Field. Why not? Because that's the whole point of Visible Power Effects. The power can be easily seen (perceived) when you use it. If I see a suit of armor suddenly appear over your body, I can reasonably conclude that your defenses just went up. But no one is going to think, "Uh-oh! A tall Chinese man! Their skin is practically bullet-proof!"

Okay, so instead of Force Field, let's make it Growth with Variable SFX. Now I can look like anyone who is slightly taller than me.

 

The same thing also applies to using the Hawk SFX for shrinking. No one looking at that hawk will be able to say: "Ah that's a person with shrinking" instead of saying "Ah that's a bird with the diminutive disads". It has to be obvious what power you're using, and turning into a hawk doesn't make it obvious that you're using shrinking.

[Tonio]

Re: Would this require shapeshift

 

Isn't there a rule somewhere that SFX's can't (shouldn't?) duplicate other Powers' effects? If so, wouldn't Shrinking with SFX: Becomes a Hawk have SFX that duplicates Shape Shift? I don't think anybody here is arguing that Shape Shift can't be used to make you look like a hawk; I think we all agree that's part of its basic usage. The question is whether it's appropriate to have "Becomes a Hawk" as appropriate SFX for Shrinking, right? If I can have Shrinking with an SFX that duplicates Shape Shift, what stops me from having a FF with SFX that duplicates a Damage Shield Energy Blast (not a stretch of the imagination, clearly!)?

[casualplayer]

Re: Would this require shapeshift

 

"It's a bird! It's a plane! It's Superman!" Nope, unless Supes buys Shapeshift it's "can't see him, can't see him, made my PER Roll now I can see him."

 

A feature of Perception that doesn't get well addressed in HERO is partial or even mistaken detection. What do you PERceive if you roll and miss target# by 1? Something that walks like a bird, talks like a bird and is bird-shaped is often going to be mistaken for a bird, for both good and ill. Might infiltrate the enemies' base easier, might get shot at by a hunter. It's a wash and doesn't require any points expenditure unless the player wants to take it further and make it more versatile, being able to emulate different types of birds or changing coloration and such.

 

You don't have to spend points for Shapeshift as a basis for any deviation from base human form, or you would have to for Extra Limbs, inherent Armor and Stretching among others. Claws Shapeshift: Touch, Sight Only Fingernails? I don't think so.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Would this require shapeshift

 

Isn't there a rule somewhere that SFX's can't (shouldn't?) duplicate other Powers' effects? If so' date=' wouldn't Shrinking with SFX: Becomes a Hawk have SFX that duplicates Shape Shift? I don't think anybody here is arguing that Shape Shift can't be used to make you look like a hawk; I think we all agree that's part of its basic usage. The question is whether it's appropriate to have "Becomes a Hawk" as appropriate SFX for Shrinking, right? If I can have Shrinking with an SFX that duplicates Shape Shift, what stops me from having a FF with SFX that duplicates a Damage Shield Energy Blast (not a stretch of the imagination, clearly!)?[/quote']

 

It can LOOK like a nimbus of firey flames and may be mistaken for a Damage Shield Energy Blast: nimbus of firey flames. But it won't do any damage, so it's not duplicating any powers.

 

You are not getting any Powers Benefit from defining your Shrinking as being "a hawk" - anyone spending a moment looking (makes a more than casual PER Roll) may realize you're not really a hawk. But someone just looking up and seeing you then carrying on will go "oh, a hawk, neat."

 

The problem with the Force Field example... it has to be obvious that a Power us In Use and possibly it's Basic Function. Defining your Force Field as a tall russian man runs into the massive problem of that Force Field don't obscure your form, it's just very obviously a person with some kind of field around them. Nice try though.

 

Shrinking just says you're smaller than Base Normal.

[Checkmate]

Re: Would this require shapeshift

 

It can LOOK like a nimbus of firey flames and may be mistaken for a Damage Shield Energy Blast: nimbus of firey flames. But it won't do any damage, so it's not duplicating any powers.

 

You are not getting any Powers Benefit from defining your Shrinking as being "a hawk" - anyone spending a moment looking (makes a more than casual PER Roll) may realize you're not really a hawk. But someone just looking up and seeing you then carrying on will go "oh, a hawk, neat."

So which is it? Do you believe it has to be obvious you're using a power or don't you? First two paragraphs you don't, third paragraph you do.

 

I The problem with the Force Field example... it has to be obvious that a Power us In Use and possibly it's Basic Function. Defining your Force Field as a tall russian man runs into the massive problem of that Force Field don't obscure your form, it's just very obviously a person with some kind of field around them. Nice try though.

 

Shrinking just says you're smaller than Base Normal.

And as I've said: Change it to Growth or shrinking Variable SFX. Now I can look like anyone slightly taller than me or if I go with shrinking, anyone slightly shorter.

 

Although I have no idea why you're trying to pick a fight, you're saying the exact same thing I am whether you want to admit it or not.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Would this require shapeshift

 

So which is it? Do you believe it has to be obvious you're using a power or don't you? First two paragraphs you don't, third paragraph you do.

 

 

And as I've said: Change it to Growth or shrinking Variable SFX. Now I can look like anyone slightly taller than me or if I go with shrinking, anyone slightly shorter.

 

Although I have no idea why you're trying to pick a fight, you're saying the exact same thing I am whether you want to admit it or not.

 

I would argue that, if it is just sfx, you are not going to fool anyone into thniking that it is a damage shield, except maybe as a power trick. Once. Certainly no one who matters, even if - and this is the cunning bit - it looks EXACTLY like another character's fiery nimbus, and that IS a damage shield.

 

Try not tho think about this in terms of strict perception; it may be because there was an article in the Viper company magazine last week: Blazing Lad: do those flames actually scorch?

 

As it turns out, everyone just seems to KNOW.

 

SFX are very flexible in Hero, but that is not a licence to abuse them - you can't, for instance, build a torch like this:

 

1 pip EB continuous, 0 END (does no damage): sfx: torch beam.

 

Well, you can, but it won't work (unless you have got your GM sufficiently drunk), or it will always seem to cause as much trouble as it addresses: yes, I can see the switch, but - wait - suddenly the enemy troops are reinforced - how? Turns out they spotted the torch beam...

 

So, variable sfx are not a licence to look like anything you like. You can do that with sfx, but you won't be fooling anyone and/or it will cause as many problems as it solves.

 

Far better to just buckle down and accept you get what you pay for.

[Tonio]

Re: Would this require shapeshift

 

It can LOOK like a nimbus of firey flames and may be mistaken for a Damage Shield Energy Blast: nimbus of firey flames. But it won't do any damage, so it's not duplicating any powers.

 

You are not getting any Powers Benefit from defining your Shrinking as being "a hawk" - anyone spending a moment looking (makes a more than casual PER Roll) may realize you're not really a hawk. But someone just looking up and seeing you then carrying on will go "oh, a hawk, neat."

 

The problem with the Force Field example... it has to be obvious that a Power us In Use and possibly it's Basic Function. Defining your Force Field as a tall russian man runs into the massive problem of that Force Field don't obscure your form, it's just very obviously a person with some kind of field around them. Nice try though.

 

Shrinking just says you're smaller than Base Normal.

 

Right, Shrinking also says nothing about obscuring your form, so it runs into the same problem as the FF with SFX: Tall Russian Man. All Shrinking should do (apart from some minor effects from SFX) is change your size (and all that's associated with that, such as DCV bonuses, etc). Turning into a hawk is not a "minor effect", since it's THE base effect of another power. Being surrounded by a vaguely hawklike aura, or turning into a vaguely hawklike form of yourself, would be minor effects. But turning into an actual hawk, even if only with respect to Sight, is the province of Shape Shift, and shouldn't be given out "for free" as SFX. I'd rule that giving even cursory glancers the impression of a "hawk" without even a Disguise roll is more than minor.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Would this require shapeshift

 

You've got to understand that this is coming from me, and I've been accused of overthinking by the best.

 

First off, Hero is real fuzzy about what sfx can and cannot do, much to my chagrin.

 

Second, you can obscure your identity by putting a pair of sheer tights over your head, for which only the most psychotic GM would require you to buy:

 

Invisibility to Sight Group , Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (30 Active Points); Limited Power Power loses almost all of its effectiveness (Only against visual identity recognition senses; -2), OAF (Pair of tights; -1) 7 real points

 

...and so, it is not that big a deal to be able to obscure your identity.

 

Thirdly, well, if we even get to thirdly, we really are overthinking it.

 

Sure I'd probably let most powers sfx obscure a secret ID, but I wouldn't allow them to obscure a public ID: when Bruce Wayne is Batman, his armoured costume obscures his ID, but when he's wearing it he's always going to look like Batman. If he wants to look like someone else, he uses his disguise skill. And takes the suit off.

 

You want a hard and fast rule? There isn't one. My brother had this schizo hero once with enhanced characteristics and MA skills - he masqueraded as about six different heroes - not copying anyone, you understand - he had six different heroic IDs. Nut.

 

Basically your sfx both help and hinder, but only a little. If you want to be sure that people think you've got a damage shield, buy images or a damage shield. If you want to fool them occasionally, and with a power roll, with your flight nimbus, sure, go ahead, but it will let you down at some important juncture, I guarantee it.

 

I'd like to see more space devoted to sfx, and what they can and can't do, but until then we'll just have to play this old piano by ear...I'll get my helmet.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Would this require shapeshift

 

Okay' date=' so instead of Force Field, let's make it Growth with Variable SFX. Now I can look like anyone who is slightly taller than me.[/quote']

Sure, except that you can't imitate anyone with this SFX, nor can you hide your identity. Both of which you could do with ShapeShift.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Would this require shapeshift

 

Force Field isn't Opaque... so no - you can't make yourself look like a tall Chinese Guy or whatever. SFX DENIED. drawback and possible advantages do not equal themselves out, you're trying to gain an advantage for free.

 

Shapeshift isn't an issue of opaque/transparent. It's big/small. Big Person, Small Bird. SFX ACCEPTED. The drawbacks and advantages equal themselves out, roughly. Or close enough for me.

 

not all SFX are equal, not all are acceptable. Oh Well.