Archetype vs. Role

[Doc Samson]

I think we all have an idea of what types of abilities we expect from the various archetypes available in Champions. We expect Bricks to have a high strength and Energy Projectors to have some sort of ranged attack, for example. While these Archetypes are easy to describe within the Comic Book genre, what do they mean in an game like Champions? As a game, these archetypes are frequently played within a group (as opposed to comics where characters can be solo as often as in a team). As part of a group, it is a natural progession that individual members will gravitate towards a function or role within the group that is best filled by their abilities. So, my question is this, what is the expected role you feel the "standard" Champions archetypes should fill on a team or in a group?

 

Having been a long time player of RPGs like Dungeons and Dragons, I find myself influenced into thinking that the group roles should be divided into; the "tank" or defensive character, the healer, the damage dealer or offensive character, and the scout or stealthy character. Clearly these roles do not directly translate into either the Comic Book genre or the Champions game (though the video game City of Heroes does a good job of reconciling the two, but that's for another discussion). As a player or as a GM, what role do you expect the various Champions archetypes to fill in your group? As a follow up question, what archetypes (if any) do you feel are essential for a "good group"? Below is a list of Champions achetypes.

 

Brick

Energy Projector

Gadgeteer

Martial Artist

Mentalist

Metamorph

Mystic

Patriot

Powered Armor

Speedster

Weaponmaster

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Archetype vs. Role

 

For a solid group that's going to be combat oriented, I've found that my groups tend to boil down too:

 

Leader/Warrior hybrid

Straight Tank

Healer/Ranged Combatant

Face/Multirole/Infiltrator

[Doc Samson]

Re: Archetype vs. Role

 

For a solid group that's going to be combat oriented, I've found that my groups tend to boil down too:

 

Leader/Warrior hybrid

Straight Tank

Healer/Ranged Combatant

Face/Multirole/Infiltrator

Ok, what Champions archetypes would you say are best suited to filling these roles? Better yet, what archetypes (if any) do your groups usually use to fill these roles?

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Archetype vs. Role

 

Ok' date=' what Champions archetypes would you say are best suited to filling these roles? Better yet, what archetypes (if any) do your groups usually use to fill these roles?[/quote']

 

We don't generally have archetypical characters; I have an EB Scientist, a multi-role combatant leader, a "pure" Brick who doesn't like to take damage, and a face/infiltrator who can sometimes use a pistol. I don't know that any of them fit into an archetypical box, and I suppose that's the nature of what I'm saying. Not all cases are going to fit into the predefined genre boxes, nor should they.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Archetype vs. Role

 

I think that in a true RPG environment, you don't "need" any particular archetype/roles. Preponderance in one area can offset 'weaknesses' in others, and the GM and players can manuever the game so that it works out. Plus, the imbalance/weakness can make for some fun stories/tactical situations. The 'balanced group' is only really needed for pre-packaged type adventures.

 

If you have a group full of bricks, they need to find ways to keep fights up close and avoid wide-open combat vs. ranged-specialist opponents. A group full of sneaky characters needs to be sneaky. Etc.

 

Have fun with the characters you want to play (and the GM will accept) and adjust the game accordingly.

[Doc Samson]

Re: Archetype vs. Role

 

I think that in a true RPG environment, you don't "need" any particular archetype/roles. Preponderance in one area can offset 'weaknesses' in others, and the GM and players can manuever the game so that it works out. Plus, the imbalance/weakness can make for some fun stories/tactical situations. The 'balanced group' is only really needed for pre-packaged type adventures.

 

If you have a group full of bricks, they need to find ways to keep fights up close and avoid wide-open combat vs. ranged-specialist opponents. A group full of sneaky characters needs to be sneaky. Etc.

 

Have fun with the characters you want to play (and the GM will accept) and adjust the game accordingly.

Though I wholeheartedly agree with you, it has not been my usual experience. Most of the players I have played Champions with strive towards being unique or at least having their own "schtick" ability that is not shared by another member of the group.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Archetype vs. Role

 

Though I wholeheartedly agree with you' date=' it has not been my usual experience. Most of the players I have played Champions with strive towards being unique or at least having their own "schtick" ability that is not shared by another member of the group.[/quote']

 

Right - the characters shouldn't be clones of each other by any means. But they can have their own 'schtick' and still be grouped under what we would generally consider the same archetype.

 

I had one group in a long-running campaign that had a number of martial artists. One had a high-damage attack, but part of it not useful against unliving targets, and had limited charges. Another had higher base damage and defenses. The third was sneakier, had AP attacks and trick shuriken. #1 was good against single powerful villain as could deal a lot of damage quick, but went down faster too and had trouble against robots/hordes of goons. #2 able to tough it out better and could handle a range of opponents. #3 better at scouting out, able to clear out weak mooks quickly and could still affect tough opponents. All three were 'martial artists' but played very differently.

 

As long as everyone has something distinctive that can get used, I don't think need to worry as much about archetypes per se.

 

All that sort of thing said, if I were to create a generic well-rounded superteam, I would want to include:

 

*superstrong/tough

*ranged combat specialist - inherent EP, power ring, trick arrows, whatever

*mentalist

*detective type

*techie skills/knowledge

*mystic skills/knowledge

 

Other things can be bolted on, and some can be combined. The strongman could have lots of techie skills too, the detective could also be the ranged combat specialist, etc.

[Certified]

Re: Archetype vs. Role

 

I think that in a true RPG environment, you don't "need" any particular archetype/roles. Preponderance in one area can offset 'weaknesses' in others, and the GM and players can manuever the game so that it works out. Plus, the imbalance/weakness can make for some fun stories/tactical situations. The 'balanced group' is only really needed for pre-packaged type adventures.

To an extent I agree and disagree with this. Part of gaming, arguably the most important part is to have fun. Not everyone wants to design customized adventures catering to their gaming group and players want to feel their contribution to the party as a whole. Although you can create stories that are tailored to the party having preset roles for the players to fill that have little overlap reduces the amount of effort needed.

 

For me I think the concept and the D20 trend to force feed archetypes is annoying and takes away from the creativity of gaming. Yes, be as creative as you want within these boundaries. However, I know people who refuse to play any other system because they know exactly what they are getting into and they have a clear set of boundaries to work within.

 

As a game designer part of 6th World was to blur these models to allow players to create what they wanted but provide guidelines for filling certain roles, ie the Tank or the Supporter without force feeding them or pushing them into any one class/archetype.

 

- - -

 

As for the Question at Hand fitting the Heroes Archetypes into the D&D/MMO Roles I would say on a very high level a Brick is a Tank and Melee damage dealer, Energy Projector is the range damage dealer and sometimes support, Martial Artist/Weapon Master may be a quasi-tank or skills expert and is almost always a Melee damage dealer (although for the Weapon Master this can very depending on the weapon of choice), Mentalist is often a support/control type but can also be a heavy damage dealer with powers that are hard to defend ageist and expert of some type, Speedster, scout/area control, the Gadgeteer , Metamorph, Mystic, Patriot, and Powered Armor can fill multiple roles and are more of theme descriptors not well transferred to party roles

[rjcurrie]

Re: Archetype vs. Role

 

I have to admit that while I look a lilttle bit at combat roles and sometimes "team structure roles" when I create a group of characters or analyze a team. I tend to look more at personalties and relationships between characters. Also, personalities should be taken into account when deciding if a character's niche is protected. And in fact, perhaps personalities should be more niche-protected than power archetypes. For example, while it can be easy to work with two fire blasters on a team and make them unique -- it can be more difficult to make two "wise asses" unique.

 

For me, I'd probably break a team into roles like:

 

Commander -- the real leader that the other characters listen to. This could be Captain Kirk "Here's what we're going to do" type or the Captain Picard "Suggestions, people?" type.

 

Spokesperson -- the character who talks to the public and often handles the team's public appearances. This could be the team's face man or it could be someone who just like publicity or it could be someone who reluctantly fills the role. Perhaps to the public, they appear to be the leader because the real leader prefers to remain out of the public eye.

 

The Anti-Commander -- this is the character who for one reason or another always seems to disagree with the Commander and thinks he knows better what the team should do. This could be a former leader who can't stop leadingn to a character was the leader of another team, or just a know-it-all.

 

The Rebel -- this is similar to the anti-commander in that he often disagrees with the team leadership but is often more philosophically-based. For example, he might be the lone liberal on a team full of conservatives or vice versa. Or maybe, he is a grey hat on a team full of white hats, that is, the one who is more willing to take a shadier approach.

 

The Loose Cannon -- This is a character who is often impetuous and prone to act without thinking. For example, it could be a speedster who is bored with waiting for his slowpoke teammates and rushes ahead to the next encounter. Or maybe, it's an overconfident character who bites off more than he can chew. Or it could be a lazy character who can't be bothered to think things through before committing to a course of actions.

 

The Wise Ass -- The character who doesn't seem to take the whole superhero/adventuring business very seriously. This character is usually quick with the quips and can be quick to put more serious-minded characters in their place.

 

The Mother Hen -- This character tends to look out for their teammates both on and off the battlefield. They are often the first one to ask if something is wrong when a teammate is acting strangely. They also tend to be the person who arranges a night out having fun when the team has been through a rough patch.

 

The Unusual Upbringing -- This is the character whose upbringing is very different from the others. It might be an alien or someone who was raised in a mystical Tibetan temple, but whatever the cause, it gives them a different view on life. It can also serve as a source of humor.

 

The Reformed Criminal -- For whatever reason, this character who has had a criminal past has reformed and joined the forces of good. As a result, some people on the team may be reluctant to fully trust this character.

 

The Workaholic -- Whether it be in their role as a superhero or at their secret ID job, this character is always working. They often have no social life and can find it hard to get along in purely social environments.

 

The Underconfident Hero -- This character, regardless of power level, feels unsure about his role on a superhero team. He tends to worry about whether or not he will be able to come through when his team needs him. This could be because of unreliable powers or it could simply be because a lack of belief in himself.

 

The Bitter One -- This is a character who forever whatever reason is bitter and usually cynical. Perhaps his origin took away as much as or more than it gave him. Or perhaps he has simply seen so much that he has become jaded.

 

The Fragile One -- This is a character that others on the team feel needs to be protected or watched over. It could be a mentally fragile character that they are afraid might snap at an inoppurtune time. Or it could be someone who is weaker or more physically fragile that needs to be protected on the battlefield.

 

The Cheerleader -- This is often the upbeat perky character who tries to keep the team as upbeat as he is. He is also usually cheering his teammates on when they attempt unusually dangerous tasks. Also, when a villain is trying to psychologically bring down a teammate, he is usually the first one trying to get the teammate to fight back.

 

The Secret Agenda Character -- This character has a secret agenda that they want to accomplish that may or may not be a detriment to their teammates. It could be a Viper plant on a superhero team, a supposedly-retired secret agent who in reality is still active and is there to gather information for the government on superheroes, or a character being blackmailed into performing actions to keep a secret (theirs or someone else's) hidden, amongst other possiblilites.

 

Sometimes, a character on a given team will fill two or more of these roles and sometimes none of them will be filled at all.

[Doc Samson]

Re: Archetype vs. Role

 

Thank you all for the interesting view points. It seems not everyone subscribes to standard roles or character templates in their campaigns. My thoughts on "essential roles" are very similar to Supreme's. My group typically has...

 

a "Tanker" (Brick) - high defenses allowing the character to often be the first in to enter a dangerous situation, high strength allowing maneuvers that can be used to protect teamates such as Grab and Squeeze or Throw

a "Nuker" (Energy Projector) - high offense ranged attacks, has Area-Effect (or Autofire) ranged attacks attacks or maneuvers like Spread (or Rapid Fire) to quickly take out groups of minions

a "Ninja" (Speedster or Martial Artist) - high or special movement types and able to get to places quickly or stealthily to gather information, high melee damage in the form of Move By's and Move Throughs or Martial Arts

a "Scientist" (Gadgeteer) - high intelligence and skills to help process information, typically uses ranged attacks

a "Crowd Controller" (Mentalist) - able to defend teamates either by controlling enemies or protective powers (such as Force Fields and Darkness), has unusual attack types to hinder powerful opponents (such as Entangles and Flashes)

 

Usually in our goups, the other standard archetypes fill similar roles to the above five but with different SFX. For example...

 

Martial Artist - in our games this character is usually a high melee damage type with stealth related skills, performs the same role as a Speedster but with stealth in place of speed

Metamorph - depending on what types of forms the character can assume, usually fills the role of a Tanker (Growth and DI) or Ninja (Desol and Shrinking)

Mystic - almost any archetype can have a mystic origin, magic is more of a SFX than a role

Patriot - this is really a background element and not an archetype at all imho, any character type can be a Patriot of some sort

Powered Armor - though typically Scientists or Nukers, Powered Armor is also more of an origin than an archetype

Weaponmaster - depending on what weapon is the character's focus, can fill almost any archetype from a Nuker (bow) to a Tanker (hammer)

 

[edit] I hadn't noticed it before but after writing it down it seems that in our groups we use Speedsters and Martial Artists rather interchangably.

[Tech]

Re: Archetype vs. Role

 

Thank you all for the interesting view points. It seems not everyone subscribes to standard roles or character templates in their campaigns.

 

My group doesn't subscribe to standard roles or archetypes. Our heroes generally blur any type and we don't adhere to any such templates. As an example, I've got a hero who, if I had to use these, would be a brick/energy projector/martial artist. The Hero System is for 'whatever you want' and I avoid trying to lock the players in a stereotyped set of powers.

[Psylint]

Re: Archetype vs. Role

 

It all depends on the campaign, but some common tasks that need to be handled:

 

Pretty Boy: someone to be a public face, deal with press, law enforcement, and other "civilized types"

 

Not so Pretty Boy: someone to be the shadow face deal with the thugs, miscreants, crime bosses, and other "uncivilized types."

 

Idea guy: generally just a smart player, hopefully with a smattering of skills, knowledge, professional and otherwise to give the GM an easy "Ok, here's what I'm laying down" without having to actually say, "Psst... the butler did it!"

 

Can Openner: someone to open up hard targets, whether through throwing lots more dice like your average brick, or having something sneaky, Armor Piercing, Coordinated attacks, NND, etc.

 

Sneaky Rat-Fink.. that character that goes where one is not invited, or reclaims that which isn't precisely theirs in a legal sense.

 

Smart Mouth: What's super heroing without someone making cheesy quips?

 

Other things that are quite useful but not nearly as common:

 

Crowd Control... whether through high speed, high velocity attacks, (martial arts/brick sweeps, autofire/aoe even change environment) something to slow down the on rushing horde of mooks so many uber-villains seem to have.

 

Boy/Girl Brilliant...character with the ability to analyze and find weakness in the opponents to devise a successful strategy and communicate it to the team.

 

Something Unexpected... whether through mental illusions, body modification, change environment, aoe entangle, darkness, etc. a character that literally operates outside the box by fundamentally changing the battle space.

 

 

 

In my experience "tanks" don't really work well, after all why would anyone shoot at Mr. Invulnerable, when they could shoot the squishy Egoist instead? And I've rarely found Healing a good fit, just never seems to be getting used. Then again, I also build characters that are pretty much combat self-sufficient. If you allow "pure support" characters, you end up with a lot of problems. If you're support character is packed full of AIDs, the rest of the team tends to steamroller once "juiced up" or collapse if the support gets taken out early. If it's a skill based "support" then you have a combat 5th wheel, and a very difficult time providing any opportunity for any of the other characters to do much of anything during non-combat time.