Sell me on "Galactic Champions"?

[nexus]

Re: Sell me on "Galactic Champions"?

 

 

I dunno Nexus. Having read your posts... I just don't know if Galactic Champions is really your thing. I know it isn't mine; I consider "225 total points" to be "too many" in many cases, so I'm more comfortable in the lower end of the spectrum myself. But maybe I'm not clear, why do you want to be sold on it?

 

I'm always interested in hearing about different things and other POVs. Maybe I've missed something after all. Some of the posts have been very thought out and informative reading even if they haven't convinced me to grab a silver coated surfboard just yet.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Sell me on "Galactic Champions"?

 

Well, not everyone wants to play a "noob" all the time. If you've played in a half dozen or more campaigns in a row where you were all "new heroes", why not play in a couple where your characters have actually been doing this for a while and have achieved some things before the campaign even starts?

 

(and for that matter, in the genre itself, even the "new heroes" often start out at very impressive levels of ability.)

[nexus]

Re: Sell me on "Galactic Champions"?

 

Well, not everyone wants to play a "noob" all the time.

 

I'm not saying that they have too. I don't think High Powered games are "Badwrongfun" just not something I'm into. Honestly, allot of my concepts could stay at 250 or less and I'd be happy with them. Some of my players are the same why. One of them has...50+ experienced banked because he can't think of any thing he wants to spend them on. He's happy with his character the way she is. My point was and is that I haven't seen many people complaining about games being too high powered. I've always felt in the minority for not enjoying them.

 

(and for that matter, in the genre itself, even the "new heroes" often start out at very impressive levels of ability.)

 

Those would be campaigns starting out a power level higher than what I like. "Newbie" doesn't necessarily equate to point total. in 75 point world the 150 Super is kind (or more or a Duke...or ..well you get he picture).

 

For example, the character in Redwood Academy/Raptors/The Center my cojoined Teen Champions games are 200 points with experience and they're among the most powerful super beings on the planet at this point.

[nexus]

Re: Sell me on "Galactic Champions"?

 

And why I responded with "not in mine".

 

That's fair.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Sell me on "Galactic Champions"?

 

another way of looking at it:

Start with 250 points, add 2 points a week, and you'll have a 750 point character in 5 years. Now, along with the higher power level, there's also the factor that you've been playing the same character for 5 years, which makes boredom and the desire for something new inevitable.

 

Start with 350 points, add 3 points a week, and you'll get there in about 2 and a half years. Again, IME, most campaigns end before the two year mark.

 

Start with 450 points, add 3 points a week, and you'll get there in 2 years. Again, unlikely to get this far most of the time.

 

Heck, most of the players I've known (and I've played with probably 20) think 350 is still a "little high to be starting out at". The odd thing is that a lot of them proceed to "optimize" their characters with multipowers, overall limitations etc., until the "effective cost" of their 250 point PC is in the ballpark of 350-500 points, power-wise.

 

It's not even about wanting to play Thor or the Silver Surfer. Even a lot of mid-range superheroes and midrange plotlines(saving the world, fighting dozens of VIPER agents, taking on a major master villain) involve power levels more suitable to 350-450 point PCs.

 

The attitude I find frustrating is that of the gamer who's ONLY interested in playing beginning to mid-level characters and wants to hit the killswitch on the campaign once mid-level has been achieved for a few months. That circumscribes an awful lot of stuff. I'm kind of a Builder type of player(and GM, for that matter), who loves to have characters become more capable and actually accomplish stuff on the way to "self-actualization", so it's kinda like having things come to an abrupt halt shortly after I'm finally past the halfway point to my goal.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Sell me on "Galactic Champions"?

 

There's another side to this, though. You take a character like the Lord Captain Thia Halmades, and you're burning an easy 500, 600 points to cover: His Perks, Skills, Holy Powers, Spell Reserve, Holy Weaponry (I may have an ice cream cone, the character wields a full on Holy Avenger), his base, his followers, on and on and on. He's drowning in stuff.

 

And if you put him in a fist fight with a 250 point straight up Warrior, he'll get bingoed. That's just how his points flow. I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with having a 250 point campaign (I generally don't go beyond that, actually) but there's a whole lot beyond "the basics" that can go into a character without violating the concept or making him a combat monster. Mind you, Thia's "Battle Meditation" abilities (to make his troops better by his appearance on the field) are expensive as all get out, but that's sort of the point.

[nexus]

Re: Sell me on "Galactic Champions"?

 

It's not even about wanting to play Thor or the Silver Surfer. Even a lot of mid-range superheroes and midrange plotlines(saving the world, fighting dozens of VIPER agents, taking on a major master villain) involve power levels more suitable to 350-450 point PCs.

 

Allot of that is scaling. If you're using the Viper Agents presented in the source book, then yes it will take high point totals, if you scale to a more "normal" (IMO) level then things are different. 100 point characters can "save the world" they just go about it differently. The master villains in the Champions U are built for huge points.

 

It's one of the reason I don't use the Champions U. If the GM uses the limits on frameworks and applies the Limitations the characters have then their characters, while they might have the same APs as higher point characters have, they should be more limited (or there's something wrong).

 

The attitude I find frustrating is that of the gamer who's ONLY interested in playing beginning to mid-level characters and wants to hit the killswitch on the campaign once mid-level has been achieved for a few months. That circumscribes an awful lot of stuff. I'm kind of a Builder type of player(and GM, for that matter), who loves to have characters become more capable and actually accomplish stuff on the way to "self-actualization", so it's kinda like having things come to an abrupt halt shortly after I'm finally past the halfway point to my goal.

 

I like to see my characters develop and do things as well but that doesn't always require to the spend experience points and acquire more power. I find the attitude that anything below 350 points is a "wimp" that shouldn't even be called a superhero annoying. We're just coming at this from different ends of the spectrum.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Sell me on "Galactic Champions"?

 

I'm not saying that they have too. I don't think High Powered games are "Badwrongfun" just not something I'm into. Honestly, allot of my concepts could stay at 250 or less and I'd be happy with them. Some of my players are the same why. One of them has...50+ experienced banked because he can't think of any thing he wants to spend them on. He's happy with his character the way she is. My point was and is that I haven't seen many people complaining about games being too high powered. I've always felt in the minority for not enjoying them.

 

 

 

Those would be campaigns starting out a power level higher than what I like. "Newbie" doesn't necessarily equate to point total. in 75 point world the 150 Super is kind (or more or a Duke...or ..well you get he picture).

 

For example, the character in Redwood Academy/Raptors/The Center my cojoined Teen Champions games are 200 points with experience and they're among the most powerful super beings on the planet at this point.

 

Well, power is certainly relative. How powerful are Green Berets with full body armor and weaponry in the Teen Champions game? If well-trained "normals" with military hardware can take down the most powerful super beings on the planet without too much difficulty, then how important, special, or consequential are the PCs exactly? Perhaps a harsh or unfair question, but if the scenario is "we're the only ones who can take this guy out", then there needs to be a grain of semi-realism in there that supports that, imho.

 

I guess the other thing would involve a little introspection on why you're "not that into" higher level games, and what might make them more fun or interesting for you. Generally, a good GM with an interesting setting, compelling story and a group with great character interaction will do a lot to overcome reservations about genre.

[nexus]

Re: Sell me on "Galactic Champions"?

 

Well, power is certainly relative. How powerful are Green Berets with full body armor and weaponry in the Teen Champions game? If well-trained "normals" with military hardware can take down the most powerful super beings on the planet without too much difficulty, then how important, special, or consequential are the PCs exactly?

 

Green Berets can't bounce bullets of their chest, walk through walls, fly, invent cutting edge technologies, read minds, etc.

 

Perhaps a harsh or unfair question, but if the scenario is "we're the only ones who can take this guy out", then there needs to be a grain of semi-realism in there that supports that, imho.

 

Well when the psionic "ghost" of a previous metahuman was taking over their cities via an infectious nano plague they were the only ones that could stop him through a combination of their abilities and circumstances. The social impact of the superhuman being would be immense without any of the being 'Superman and the Avengers. A hero doesn't need to be able to blow up a tank with his smallest attack to be a hero. It depends on what kinds of stories you want to tell and I prefer mine to be more personal.

 

I'm trying not to get snarky here, but I wasn't telling anyone they were having Badwrongfun or power gaming because of their preference but I'm sure getting that vibe in return.

 

Too answer your question, I run my worlds with the assumption that vast majority of humans have stats from 6-8, highly trained humans will push into 13. Higher than that and you start getting into the elite. "Viper Agents" of the equivalent would simply not have 18 Dexes. Top of the line, elite special forces soldiers the likes of Rambo would.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Sell me on "Galactic Champions"?

 

Green Berets can't bounce bullets of their chest' date=' walk through walls, fly, invent cutting edge technologies, read minds, etc.[/quote']

 

Heavy Armor, Explosives, Personal Flight Suit/Device and/or Airlift, they make use of cutting edge tech, lie detectors, so on & so forth. It depends on the level of power as well as the level of convenience. Sure, they can't wrinkle their nose and blow the tires off a jeep, but they CAN twitch a finger and lob a 40mm HEAT round from their XM-8 Over/Under launcher and call it good.

 

Besides, I wrote up Sam Fisher -- without gear -- and he cost about 500 points. So a 250 point dedicated soldier, with Resource Pools, and equipment, and the right ammo is going to get the attention of many, many "supers." Especially those who don't use tactics, and who don't have super level defenses.

[Certified]

Re: Sell me on "Galactic Champions"?

 

As this tread slips further down the how many points road I want to add more than the fan boy joke from earlier. With any campaign be it street level or world hopping cosmic part of a successful campaign is planning and flexibility. Can you establish a setting you feel comfortable running? Will you be able to create storylines you feel are engaging for everyone? If you are used to crafting adventures that are more traditional it may be a fun thought exercise to balloon these stories to an even larger scale. There have been some good world crafting suggestions made in this tread. Establish the scope of the universe; the major races, cultures and organizations is any. Is there a theme for the campaign? how do these elements play into that? On the same token, how do the PCs fit into this? A Galactic Champions styled game can allow you to reinvent old stories and themes you may have wanted to explore but you can now take in new directions. There are a lot of possibilities in the stay fairing campaign it's a matter of is it a good fit for your group.

[nexus]

Re: Sell me on "Galactic Champions"?

 

It's not totally about points as has been pointed out. Points are convenient shorthand for Hero players when discussing abstract character "power" but really you can have a 500 point game with very low ceilings to generate characters with a great deal of breadth and flexibility instead of death. That's more enjoyable to me than mega power style but even then it starts to get kind difficult to maintain niches, IME.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Sell me on "Galactic Champions"?

 

It's not totally about points as has been pointed out. Points are convenient shorthand for Hero players when discussing abstract character "power" but really you can have a 500 point game with very low ceilings to generate characters with a great deal of breadth and flexibility instead of death. That's more enjoyable to me than mega power style but even then it starts to get kind difficult to maintain niches' date=' IME.[/quote']

 

Precisely, that's all I'm saying. My 500 points are going to look very different for a stealth machine like Sam Fisher than they would for a Spider-Man homage, or a Captain America homage. As I remember Oddhat saying some time ago, the game scales fine; me, I have trouble thinking outside of the 'soldier' box, so when I do throw in giant monsters, it tends to get everyone's attention.

 

I need more giant monsters.

[nexus]

Re: Sell me on "Galactic Champions"?

 

 

So a 250 point dedicated soldier, with Resource Pools, and equipment, and the right ammo is going to get the attention of many, many "supers." Especially those who don't use tactics, and who don't have super level defenses.

 

Ok when did this become yet another penis measuring contest between superhumans and the military? I was pointing out that because Green Berets are tough, doesn't mean the PC are irrelevant unless their walking Gods. If anything it's worse in "Galactic Champions" where Phased Plasma rifles in 40 watt range could be a common military firearm.

 

 

 

'

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Sell me on "Galactic Champions"?

 

It didn't.

 

I'm saying that in all things, there's room for interpretation. That was pretty much my whole point. I'm a Dark Champions/Star Hero guy, remember? This is my point of reference. I was trying to share it. Not start a pissing contest over it. Apologies for any inconvenience my opinion may have caused.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Sell me on "Galactic Champions"?

 

Green Berets can't bounce bullets of their chest, walk through walls, fly, invent cutting edge technologies, read minds, etc.

 

 

 

Well when the psionic "ghost" of a previous metahuman was taking over their cities via an infectious nano plague they were the only ones that could stop him through a combination of their abilities and circumstances. The social impact of the superhuman being would be immense without any of the being 'Superman and the Avengers. A hero doesn't need to be able to blow up a tank with his smallest attack to be a hero. It depends on what kinds of stories you want to tell and I prefer mine to be more personal.

 

I'm trying not to get snarky here, but I wasn't telling anyone they were having Badwrongfun or power gaming because of their preference but I'm sure getting that vibe in return.

 

Too answer your question, I run my worlds with the assumption that vast majority of humans have stats from 6-8, highly trained humans will push into 13. Higher than that and you start getting into the elite. "Viper Agents" of the equivalent would simply not have 18 Dexes. Top of the line, elite special forces soldiers the likes of Rambo would.

 

 

Sorry, I'm not trying to say "your style of gaming is badwrongfun", but rather trying to show there's a different perspective to consider/explore.

 

Let's take Superman as an example. Superman has DNPCs who are mostly just competent normals. He has psych lims appropriate to his upbringing and backstory. He has a fairly impressive set of skills but by no means does he know everything about everything. He's a member of a superhero team. He has hunteds who are less powerful, as powerful, and more powerful than he is. There's a ton of storylines and interesting NPCs for him to interact with. Superman is an immensely powerful character who has all of the trappings of characters less powerful than he: a circle of friends and allies, love interest(s), contacts, etc.; a gallery of foes; a compelling reason for being a hero, and a reason why he can't do everything. There are even various Achilles heels built into his concept, permitting the writers to put up obstacles when his abilities might normally allow him to short circuit the problem.

But, one might say, I don't really care for Supes. His backstory just isn't all that compelling. That's okay, because there are roughly 2 or 3 dozen comic book characters with similar levels of power and ability but substantially different backgrounds, personalities, etc.:

Icon(alien masquerading as human, happens to look like an African American)

Sentry(schizophrenic, his origin also created his nemesis, who happens to be a manifestation of the dark side of his psyche)

Capt. Marvel(a kid becomes a superhero by saying the magic word)

Martian Manhunter

Apollo of the Authority

Mon-El

Supergirl

Wonder Woman

Ms. Marvel

Majestic

Invincible's dad

Supreme(the arrogant prick version)

Hyperion(kind of the Iron Age version of Supes)

Goku

 

All of these characters are quite different, even though they have many powers and power levels in common. And they all have "personal stories" to tell and explore. Stories of Hercules' exploits were no less compelling than those of Jason, even though Herc was the mightier hero. Goku loves to eat, has a wife and sons, and plenty of friends. Although he deals with planet-shaking events, he's still basically a simple guy who loves to laugh and hang out with friends and family.

 

I think the trick is to find that "personal hook" in your high level character(or low level, for that matter), and work with it. The Silver Surfer had his loneliness, guilt over his past, and feelings for his lost love, Shalla Bal. Thor had the complications of his dual existence as a god and mortal. Superman has to deal with his dual existence as well.

It's quite possible to deal with a Gal Champs setting where the villains are more about stealing stuff and settling grudges than they are about conquering the universe and blowing up planets, and where there's a lot of social interaction between the heroes and between the heroes and their DNPCs. The high level doesn't make the exploration of the "personal level" of the heroes more difficult, but it does tend to expand the options at the upper end.

And the extra dice aren't so heavy that you'll get carpal tunnel from throwing them around.

 

(PS: have you considered that by "powering down" normals, you're effectively "powering up" your campaign anyway? IOW, you're basically making your 200 point campaign effectively operate at the same power level as, say, a 400 point campaign. Which kind of muddles the argument about X points being too many, I would think.)

 

Anyway, meant no offense or slight. Just being a cheerleader for "taking a walk on the epic side once in a while".

[megaplayboy]

Re: Sell me on "Galactic Champions"?

 

I'll give you an example of a "high level devotee"(me) adapting to a standard/low level(for me) setting.

A friend of mine ran a Fantasy Hero game. I played a character, Hurin the Iron Arm, who had once been one of the most feared warriors in the world, but had been betrayed by his lieutenants and left for dead. Only his thirst for revenge kept him alive, as a "semi-undead". At the start of the campaign, Hurin is horrifically scarred by burns, is missing one arm and one eye, and walks slowly with a pronounced limp. Yet he's still one of the strongest and best fighters in the party! As the campaign progressed and Hurin began to find those who betrayed him, his burns started to heal and even his arm started to grow back. Yet, Hurin also began to be less of the callous, unfeeling monster he had been before. Had the campaign lasted long enough, Hurin would have returned to his old peak fighting condition, but been a changed man, more of a real hero.

I had a blast playing Hurin, even though I might have originally preferred playing him at a more "self-actuallized" level to begin with.

I think lower-level devotees could probably find a similar way to adapt to a higher level game, just by finding a character concept that is appealing but yet appropriate to the setting.

[nexus]

Re: Sell me on "Galactic Champions"?

 

(PS: have you considered that by "powering down" normals, you're effectively "powering up" your campaign anyway? IOW, you're basically making your 200 point campaign effectively operate at the same power level as, say, a 400 point campaign. Which kind of muddles the argument about X points being too many, I would think.)

 

Not really. I think things have been over inflated to actually provide some challenge to the high end characters. The stuff in the Viper book is just nuts. And in my games the PCs are held to the same limits. Having the mutant to read people minds doesn't mean your Dex is suddenly 20 because it's more efficient or you need it or the "mere humans" will be dancing circles around you. It means you can read minds.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Sell me on "Galactic Champions"?

 

Not really. I think things have been over inflated to actually provide some challenge to the high end characters. The stuff in the Viper book is just nuts. And in my games the PCs are held to the same limits. Having the mutant to read people minds doesn't mean your Dex is suddenly 20 because it's more efficient or you need it or the "mere humans" will be dancing circles around you. It means you can read minds.

 

Yes, but by lowering agent CVs and defenses by a few points, it means that 200 point heroes in your campaign can beat up more agents than 200 point heroes in a more "standard" campaign. Six of one, half dozen of the other--if a 300 point character in a standard campaign can beat up the same number of agents as a 200 point character in your campaign, then your 200 point characters are effectively as powerful in their campaign as the 300 pointers are in theirs.

 

But I'm nitpicking, I guess. It does seem like if normals are all built on -20 points or less, then the whole setup scales down("competent" becomes 25+25, "heroic" becomes 75 or 100 points, and "superheroic" becomes 150+ points), which doesn't really mean the characters are less powerful; you just made the rest of the world less powerful to make the characters more powerful.

 

There's no reason one can't have some concept-based stat limits in a high level game, either. The agents could still have normal-range DEX and SPD but have fancy-shmancy targeting systems for their blasters, and maybe some hefty area-effect ordnance as well. They could have minimal body armor but maybe some heavy vehicles for support.

[nexus]

Re: Sell me on "Galactic Champions"?

 

There's no reason one can't have some concept-based stat limits in a high level game, either. The agents could still have normal-range DEX and SPD but have fancy-shmancy targeting systems for their blasters, and maybe some hefty area-effect ordnance as well. They could have minimal body armor but maybe some heavy vehicles for support.

 

Can we suffice it to say that seems like taking the long way to end up in the same place, IMO and just get the thread back on topic? Again, I feel like DEFENDING my preferences instead of hearing about why people think other things are cool.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Sell me on "Galactic Champions"?

 

Can we suffice it to say that seems like taking the long way to end up in the same place' date=' IMO and just get the thread back on topic? Again, I feel like DEFENDING my preferences instead of hearing about why people think other things are cool.[/quote']

 

Sure.

 

I think Cosmic Hero campaigns are cool because your playground is the whole universe, you can be every bit as buff as your favorite fictional hero or heroic deity, and you can tell stories that are ambitious and epic in scope without many of the technical restrictions that plague such efforts at lower levels(e.g., 700 point heroes generally don't worry about what happens if their spaceship hull is ruptured, since they can generally survive hard vaccuum, but a lot of 250 and 350 point heroes do, because they generally can't).

 

The Avengers and JLA don't fight street crime, but they do manage to have quite a diverse set of adventures, and also some opportunity to explore the motivations, personalities and interactions of the heroes. I fully believe that there's every bit of room and opportunity available to tell stories at the "personal level" even for demigods in tights. High level games are more suitable for certain kinds of storylines, imo, just as low level games are more suitable for certain other kinds of storylines. But you can still take down the crime boss in a cosmic game; he just happens to have a lot more henchmen and he hangs out in an orbital fortress near Cygnus IV.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Sell me on "Galactic Champions"?

 

Can we suffice it to say that seems like taking the long way to end up in the same place' date=' IMO and just get the thread back on topic? Again, I feel like DEFENDING my preferences instead of hearing about why people think other things are cool.[/quote']

 

Okie doke. I think that, for me, what would make a setting like this viable would be a deep-space, very wide ranging setting, where various "super powers" by whatever special effect, are caught up in long reaching political conflicts, wherein each side has their own "super weapons" and it's entirely possible that with enough effort, one of these teams could wipe out a planet, or at the very least glass it.

 

My vision of a setting of this nature would lean away from a "good supers team" and lean much more towards heavy verisimilitude, and although you have tremendous, deific power, so too does your opposition. While I doubt I personally would be able to handle it, I can certainly envision a setting of that magnitude, with massive stellar empires, bases, normals in heavy cruisers firing main guns at the heroes as they breach the ship, and so on.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Sell me on "Galactic Champions"?

 

Okie doke. I think that, for me, what would make a setting like this viable would be a deep-space, very wide ranging setting, where various "super powers" by whatever special effect, are caught up in long reaching political conflicts, wherein each side has their own "super weapons" and it's entirely possible that with enough effort, one of these teams could wipe out a planet, or at the very least glass it.

 

My vision of a setting of this nature would lean away from a "good supers team" and lean much more towards heavy verisimilitude, and although you have tremendous, deific power, so too does your opposition. While I doubt I personally would be able to handle it, I can certainly envision a setting of that magnitude, with massive stellar empires, bases, normals in heavy cruisers firing main guns at the heroes as they breach the ship, and so on.

 

Sure. The PCs are genetically-engineered bioweapons, incredibly expensive and designed for law enforcement and military engagements. They are given manufactured memories and provided with friends, love interests, wealth and renown, all to better motivate/manipulate/control them. Eventually they may rebel against their creators and become a true force for change in the galaxy. "agents" in such a campaign might be normals in space-worthy powered armor, or some kind of souped-up folks given gear to compete with the supercharged wrecking machines known as PCs.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Sell me on "Galactic Champions"?

 

Sure. The PCs are genetically-engineered bioweapons' date=' incredibly expensive and designed for law enforcement and military engagements. They are given manufactured memories and provided with friends, love interests, wealth and renown, all to better motivate/manipulate/control them. Eventually they may rebel against their creators and become a true force for change in the galaxy. "agents" in such a campaign might be normals in space-worthy powered armor, or some kind of souped-up folks given gear to compete with the supercharged wrecking machines known as PCs.[/quote']

 

Exactly. I'm just thinking of ways to push the envelope, because while I watched and enjoyed (fling poo later) the second Fantastic Four film, I would never run "that game." Not in a gabillion years. But a game like the one we're describing, which despite it's insane power levels keeps a dark, gritty edge? I think Galactic Champions could pull that off beautifully. So that would certainly be something I could get behind.

[Certified]

Re: Sell me on "Galactic Champions"?

 

A concept that doesn't get a lot of respect in game play is time and distance. Most often Sci-Fi epics wave the problem of traveling light years to go from one inhabitable world to another. There has been a lot of fiction written where this takes a significant role. What I wonder is could this be used as a controlling element in a Galactic Champions game?

 

This could be as simple as globe trotting in a modern game but if we scale back the speed or travel it has a lot of interesting possibilities. For instance, say there is an uprising in a colony twenty light years away the players can go there in what seems to be a matter of weeks to them but is in fact years since they left. What has come of the uprising? Is it still relevant even though it was a crisis at the time? If it is what is the state of their homeland since they left much less by the time they return? Lots of very strange concepts to play with.