Adjustment vs. Skill Based Magic

[Citizen Keen]

Reading Goodkind, had a thought:

 

How would you dispel, aid, transfer, whatever, against a Skill Based magic? They don't have any magic powers, they just have skill. Would you do it as a drain versus the skill, or what?

 

And to adjust the skill, that wouldn't require much, because skills don't cost much. Maybe hardening the skill? Can you do that?

[Derek Hiemforth]

Well, in HERO System terms, they must have a Power in there somewhere if they're using magic. It's probably a Variable Power Pool that Requires a Skill Roll. So you'd want to aid, drain, transfer, etc. the VPP as well as the Skill.

[Herolover]

I think I understand where you are coming from. As I understnad it you are wondering how Dispel would work if you had a skill based magic system.

 

Example: Harry the mage has a fireball spell. However, Harry doesn't have to buy the power Fireball instead he just buys a skill "Fireball 13-".

 

The Fireball spell should be made up by the GM, even though Harry doesn't have to spend points on it, except to buy the skill. The GM should at least have a rough idea of how many active points and what kind of advantages and limitations the power has. If the player isn't buying the power it doesn't have to be exact, but at least close.

 

This way, Tim the enchanter uses his Dispel spell you can figure out of Tim's Dispel is powerful enough or if Tim needs to use a "Greater Dispel."

 

As an example of this I am using a skill based "magic" system for potions and brewing potions. A player alchemist wants to brew a potion of "Increased Speed." To brew the potion he needs the skill Brew "Increased Speed Potion". He spends his points on the skill and makes his roll.

 

Now I as GM make the power up, but the player doesn't have to spend the points. This way if someone comes up and says I am dispelling the potion (I don't think possible, but for arguement sake) I can see if their dispel is enough.

 

Any questions?

[Citizen Keen]

It's worse in my game.

 

There is no Fireball Skill. There is a Fire Magic skill, which allows the character to cast Fireball, Firebolt, Incinerate, Firewall, Body of Flame, etc. They can only cast spells they know, but they don't have to pay points for any of the spells, although they do have to buy Wizard Talents and the END Reserves to cast the spells. Now, this is fine for Dispel. But what about Drain?

 

If the character only has a base 11- roll in Fire Magic, that's only 3 points. Draining 3 points is easy. Since all the spells (fully detailed by moi) have RASR, draining that 3 point skill will rob them of their magic.

 

Other than Power Defense, is there anything else to do?

[Citizen Keen]

Originally posted by Derek Hiemforth

Well, in HERO System terms, they must have a Power in there somewhere if they're using magic. It's probably a Variable Power Pool that Requires a Skill Roll. So you'd want to aid, drain, transfer, etc. the VPP as well as the Skill.

 

Not true. Fantasy HERO introduces the idea of characters using powers without paying the points for them. While you can use a VPP, FH also provides alternatives, including a Skill Based Magic System.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Originally posted by Citizen Keen

Not true. Fantasy HERO introduces the idea of characters using powers without paying the points for them. While you can use a VPP, FH also provides alternatives, including a Skill Based Magic System.

Ah. Okay, perhaps I should shut up until I actually get the new book and can read through it.

[Citizen Keen]

Just realized that sounded harsh. Sorry.

[Nevenall]

I think that, officially, adjustment powers can only effect characteristics and powers. So you can't drain someone's Fire magic skill, but you can drain the Int that it's based upon. I think this is why there is the optional Negative Skill Levels power.

[AnotherSkip]

well the real answer might be a Skill vs Skill contest for the short term and Negative Skill Levels for the long term.

 

However in a world like that a Drain of magical power may just be impossible!

\

 

best answer?

 

Talk to your Gm

if you are the Gm, erm either post the writeup of the How/why behind the magic. or decide based upon the SFX of the magic.

[Herolover]

Okay.

 

You are getting to caught up in the mechanics of HERO system. The skill is a spell system is a kludge. There are NO mechanics for it in reality.

 

The reason it came about is that certain people did not like the idea of wizards using power pools, such as the VPP, and did not like the idea that for every spell a wizard had to buy the power. The reason for this is that if a wizard has to buy every spell as a power either he needs a lot of points to have a lot of spells or he won’t have that many spells. Many people like wizards to have access to lots of spells and I don’t blame them.

 

So, the kludge was born that a wizard could buy a skill as the spell in much the same way a fighter could buy a new skill and be able to use a new weapon. Now, with the new Fantasy Hero edition, it is “official.†However, there are no official mechanics for it.

 

The idea behind it is that a fighter doesn’t have to make up a sword to use it he just gets a skill. Now, using this system, a spellcaster is the same way. He doesn’t have to make up the spell he just has to buy a skill. Note, that just because the fighter doesn’t make up the sword and spend points on it, the sword still has a HERO system write-up. Now, using this system, spells are the same way.

 

Okay So Harry the mage has "Fire abilites" and you want to know Tim the enchanter drains Harry.

 

Well, how does a magical "Drain" work in your world?

 

1) You can still use Drain as written. Remember Tim is not draining the actual skill that Harry has. He is draining the spell. So you need to figure out how many active points Harry has in “fire spells†and that is what Tim needs to Drain.

 

2) Since you are using a skill system might I suggest a simple skill vs skill roll? Harry has Fire Magic 13- and Tim has Dispel Magic 12-. From there just follow the rules for skills using the HERO system.

 

3) May be you want suppress instead of drain? Tim the enchanter cast a spell that makes it difficult for Harry the Mage to cast any spells or maybe specifically fire spells. Tim cast his "Drain Magic Spell" (written using the suppress power). Tim suppresses 30 active points worth of powers. So know Harry's 50pt fireball is instead a 20 pt fireball.

 

Honestly I like the spells as skill magic system (as I said, I am using it for alchemy and potions), but it really isn’t part of the HERO system.

 

If you really want you mages to have a lot of spells and don’t want to use the skill kludge and want Drains, Suppress, Fireball, and whatnot written up the correct HERO way you need to have your mages use a VPP.

 

As I said, I hope some of this dribble helps.