Only to affect secondary characteristics?

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Only to affect secondary characteristics?

 

Wouldn't have just been simpler to have applied the cone to the noggin?

 

Not all problems are solved by applying brute, frozen, confectionary force to the cranium.

 

Most. Not all. If the behavior persists, then yes. The smitings will commence until attitude improves.

[Kenn]

Re: Only to affect secondary characteristics?

 

Campaign limits and design play a lot into it as well. That's why I consider the whole argument circular' date=' and suggested dismissing it. We'll just go in circles, none of the posts having much constructive benefit. Somewhere the GM has to say "That's the way the points parse out. Cope."[/quote']

 

*sigh*

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Only to affect secondary characteristics?

 

*sigh*

 

I submit there's a wide gap between saying "That's the way the points parse out, cope" and "suck it up, or find a new system." It's not the message; it's the way it's said.

[Kenn]

Re: Only to affect secondary characteristics?

 

Fair enough.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Only to affect secondary characteristics?

 

I seem to have somehow double posted: the full version of this post is just below. Sorry.

Hi.

 

Hero does this difficult balancing thing. It balances points, against utility, it balances tradition against change, and it balances concept against munchkinism.

 

And, no, I don't think munchkinism is bad.

 

So, we can buy figured characteristics with limited strength/constitution/body/dexterity. In principle, no problem, but one of Hero's difficult balances comes in here: tradition v change. I know about frameworks, but even taking them into consideration (and bearing in mind you can put characetistics in frameworks anyway, and bearing in mind that if you drain STR it DOESN'T affect the figured characteristics), 10 points of strength yields 11 point of figured characteristics, before you even take into consideration the other advantages of that +10 strength.

 

The question should not be, to my mind, "Should Frail be denied cheap figured characteristics?", but rather "Should Strong get all those goodies for free?" and looked at that way, well, the answer may not be clearer, but at least you've got a good idea where to pitch your tent.

 

The arguments may be summarised:

 

1. Gaining figured characteristics is a consequence of buying increased physical strength, should I not be allowed access to that point break even if I want to build a character who is not physically strong?

 

Reasonable. Internally consistent.

 

2. Figured characteristics have their own point cost, and buying them at a discount in another way spoils the pricing structure

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Only to affect secondary characteristics?

 

This would be the thread in question, yes.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Only to affect secondary characteristics?

 

Hi.

 

Hero does this difficult balancing thing. It balances points against utility, it balances tradition against change, character against character and concept against munchkinism.

 

And, no, I don't think munchkinism is bad.

 

So, we can buy figured characteristics with limited strength/constitution/body/dexterity. In principle, no problem, but one of Hero's difficult balances comes in here: tradition v change. I know about frameworks, but even taking them into consideration (and bearing in mind you can put characetistics in frameworks anyway, and bearing in mind that if you drain STR it DOESN'T affect the figured characteristics), 10 points of strength yields 11 point of figured characteristics, before you even take into consideration the other advantages of that +10 strength.

 

The question should not be, to my mind, "Should Frail be denied cheap figured characteristics?", but rather "Should Strong get all those goodies for free?" and looked at that way, well, the answer may not be clearer, but at least you've got a good idea where to pitch your tent.

 

The arguments may be summarised:

 

1. Gaining figured characteristics is a consequence of buying increased physical strength, should I not be allowed access to that point break even if I want to build a character who is not physically strong?

 

Reasonable. Internally consistent.

 

2. Figured characteristics have their own point cost, and buying them at a discount in another way spoils the pricing structure.

 

Reasonable. Externally consistent.

 

Now I instinctively come down on the side of #2, but, as it turns out, I'm wrong. That is to say, having thought about it, there is no good reason I can think of to deny Frail the cost break. I don't like it. It is messy. Sure. However, it makes good enough sense and it doesn't seem to unbalance the game at all to me. After all, there is a world of difference between spending points freeely and spending them in a predetermined pattern: generally 2 points is better spent on +1 pd and +1 ed than on +2 stun.

 

We may argue about whether the concept is actually 'frail' or simply 'not able to use strength to apply force', but either way, it is probably worth a limitation.

 

One other point, is that it is almost certainly rules illegal. I'm pretty sure you can't apply a limitation to a primary characteristic that doesn't also apply to the figured characteristics unless you've also bought the 'doesn't affect figured' limitation. I consider that a relatively minor inconvenience

 

When, after the Apocalypse, and everyone else has bought the farm, I publish Hero 17th Edition, purely for my own amusement, to while away the endless days, I'll be getting rid of figured characteristics entirely. Until then, knock yourselves out, kids.

 

I mean that most sincerely.

[JmOz]

Re: Only to affect secondary characteristics?

 

Hi.

 

Hero does this difficult balancing thing. It balances points against utility, it balances tradition against change, character against character and concept against munchkinism.

 

And, no, I don't think munchkinism is bad.

 

So, we can buy figured characteristics with limited strength/constitution/body/dexterity. In principle, no problem, but one of Hero's difficult balances comes in here: tradition v change. I know about frameworks, but even taking them into consideration (and bearing in mind you can put characetistics in frameworks anyway, and bearing in mind that if you drain STR it DOESN'T affect the figured characteristics), 10 points of strength yields 11 point of figured characteristics, before you even take into consideration the other advantages of that +10 strength.

 

The question should not be, to my mind, "Should Frail be denied cheap figured characteristics?", but rather "Should Strong get all those goodies for free?" and looked at that way, well, the answer may not be clearer, but at least you've got a good idea where to pitch your tent.

 

The arguments may be summarised:

 

1. Gaining figured characteristics is a consequence of buying increased physical strength, should I not be allowed access to that point break even if I want to build a character who is not physically strong?

 

Reasonable. Internally consistent.

 

2. Figured characteristics have their own point cost, and buying them at a discount in another way spoils the pricing structure.

 

Reasonable. Externally consistent.

 

Now I instinctively come down on the side of #2, but, as it turns out, I'm wrong. That is to say, having thought about it, there is no good reason I can think of to deny Frail the cost break. I don't like it. It is messy. Sure. However, it makes good enough sense and it doesn't seem to unbalance the game at all to me. After all, there is a world of difference between spending points freeely and spending them in a predetermined pattern: generally 2 points is better spent on +1 pd and +1 ed than on +2 stun.

 

We may argue about whether the concept is actually 'frail' or simply 'not able to use strength to apply force', but either way, it is probably worth a limitation.

 

One other point, is that it is almost certainly rules illegal. I'm pretty sure you can't apply a limitation to a primary characteristic that doesn't also apply to the figured characteristics unless you've also bought the 'doesn't affect figured' limitation. I consider that a relatively minor inconvenience

 

When, after the Apocalypse, and everyone else has bought the farm, I publish Hero 17th Edition, purely for my own amusement, to while away the endless days, I'll be getting rid of figured characteristics entirely. Until then, knock yourselves out, kids.

 

I mean that most sincerely.

 

You are right about the Figured characteristics and limitation rule, one I tend to forget about quite often honesty

[Kdansky]

Re: Only to affect secondary characteristics?

 

Yeah, I know that rule and intentionally did not mention it. Damn you, Mr. Waters! Damn you! You've spoiled my plans! Now I have no other choice than to take you prisoner and feed you to my sharks!

 

Sean reasons exactly as I was. I cannot think of a good explanation to deny the "I cannot hit you hard, but I'm not *that* weak"-guy the same costs for figureds than the strong guy. But I didn't want to tinker with the core rules and change the way attributes are priced. That always gets messy (where do you stop?), so I just figured (pun!) I'd use what the system gives me. Limitations are one of THE most Hero things.

 

Oh, and I'll buy that 17th Edition without figureds on the spot! Would you take two semi-nuclear-chickens for it? I don't recommend eating them, and the eggs are kinda greenish, but they don't taste that bad.

[caris]

Re: Only to affect secondary characteristics?

 

Yeah, I know that rule and intentionally did not mention it. Damn you, Mr. Waters! Damn you! You've spoiled my plans! Now I have no other choice than to take you prisoner and feed you to my sharks!

 

Sean reasons exactly as I was. I cannot think of a good explanation to deny the "I cannot hit you hard, but I'm not *that* weak"-guy the same costs for figureds than the strong guy. But I didn't want to tinker with the core rules and change the way attributes are priced. That always gets messy (where do you stop?), so I just figured (pun!) I'd use what the system gives me. Limitations are one of THE most Hero things.

 

Oh, and I'll buy that 17th Edition without figureds on the spot! Would you take two semi-nuclear-chickens for it? I don't recommend eating them, and the eggs are kinda greenish, but they don't taste that bad.

 

I had simply assumed that you were making an exception to the general rule for this specific case.

 

Now, if you are sweating this so much please tell me that you just disallowed Martial Art Manuevers in your games.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Only to affect secondary characteristics?

 

Fine. You've been cheated by that quirk in the system. Suck it up and exploit some other quirk to recoup your losses' date=' or find another system.[/quote']

 

My answer is "select a character concept who is not disadvantaged by the rules of the system". The problem with this is that it seriously weakens the case for "you can build any kind of character you want in Hero" when some types of characters are automatically inefficient due to pricing structures.

 

It's like saying "Sure you can build a wizard with thief skills and weapon/armor skills in D&D". Yes, you can - the rules allow it. But the use of your feats and/or multiclassing to achieve this means you will lag far behind more focused characters in power, and you won't have those abilities from the start since you'll need several levels of muticlassing to get there.

 

In Champions (ie super heroes) there is a disadvantage that gives you points for keeping your characteristics low. It's called Normal Characteristic Maxima. I'd suggest looking into it.

 

Don't get me started on NCM. It basically says "characters who would not have bought high stats anyway get disad points for that character build". Have you ever seen a Fantasy Hero warrior take Age, lowering his physical NCM for a boost in mental NCM's? I doubt it. But it's a great choice for characters who wanted their physical stats in the 13-15 range anyway, and wanted higher INT, EGO and/or PRE.

 

NCM is about as valid a "disadvantage" as giving a Brick a 5 point disad for "cannot buy mental powers", a Gadgeteer 10 points for "can't buy powers that don't have a focus" or the Human Torch 15 points for "can't buy powers with SFX other than fire".

[Sean Waters]

Re: Only to affect secondary characteristics?

 

Yeah, I know that rule and intentionally did not mention it. Damn you, Mr. Waters! Damn you! You've spoiled my plans! Now I have no other choice than to take you prisoner and feed you to my sharks!

 

Sean reasons exactly as I was. I cannot think of a good explanation to deny the "I cannot hit you hard, but I'm not *that* weak"-guy the same costs for figureds than the strong guy. But I didn't want to tinker with the core rules and change the way attributes are priced. That always gets messy (where do you stop?), so I just figured (pun!) I'd use what the system gives me. Limitations are one of THE most Hero things.

 

Oh, and I'll buy that 17th Edition without figureds on the spot! Would you take two semi-nuclear-chickens for it? I don't recommend eating them, and the eggs are kinda greenish, but they don't taste that bad.

 

Can I bring my kitten to the shark pool? Damn thing seems to be training as a ninja...

 

...and ancient, green eggs are sometimes considered a delicacy (or so I tried to convince my wife when she was pushing me to clean out the fridge....)