Turakian magic keeping it balanced?

[runescience]

Hi folkses:

 

I was doing a VPP for magic, keeping the active point value around 30, matching the best sword attack in the game.

 

I was thinking of moving over turkarian magic, but I wondered how i keep things balanced with the fighters. It seems FH Grimoire and the spells in the back of the Turkarian book can have high active point values. Whats your take on point value of wizards offensive and defensive capabilties vs non casters?

 

What do you good folks do with active point values of spells?

 

Turkarian magic seems to be a third more expensive than doing it with a vpp.

 

What should I shoot for with power levels. People are about 125-150pts. speed 3, average armor value:3 best melee damage; 1 1/2 d6 or 2d6.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Turakian magic keeping it balenced?

 

In the few Turakian sessions I've played... the magic system is pretty well balanced as is.

 

Active Points are, IMO, a bad judge of balance.

[runescience]

Re: Turakian magic keeping it balenced?

 

ok. so what is a good judge of balance?

 

What prevents a mage from taking 4d6k spells... aside from the dm not allowing it, but, then again, I have no way other than keeping the active point lvl down.

 

I guess I should also be asking, how do you let the players select spells?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Turakian magic keeping it balenced?

 

1) Carefully.

 

2) The Magic Roll can really keep things in check.

 

3) Warriors can reach 4D6, Sword + STR + Skill Levels + Maneuvers can stack quickly. Especially if you allow a level of Deadly Blow.

[runescience]

Any one use Turakian magic?

 

I appreciate your posts. Sometimes the lack of formality leads to vagueness.

 

What do you mean by 'carefully'? what are your considerations?

 

How do you all let players choose spells in Turakian magic?

 

If you use the schools of Turakian magic, how does a person obtain detect magic (1 real point spell) if he is an elementalist?

 

Do you let people take a small number general or simple spells, even if they just have a skill roll for elementalist?

 

How do you all feel about the divide by 3 rule when buying Turakian magic?

 

Others are welcome to chime in?

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Turakian magic keeping it balenced?

 

I don't use a Turakian Model, I use a variant on the model proposed by Killer Shrike, which is a modified VPP. However, I also use RSR, and the limitation "Spell," meaning that you need to purchase CSLs in Magic to use with your spells. They're cheap, though, costing only 3 pts. for the full gamut of OCV, DCV & DC.

 

Active Points are a guideline, not "t3h answ3r" since there's a wide variation among spells even at that level. For me, specifically, I said up front in my last campaign, "No single level of effect over 45 Active Points, 60 point cap with Advantages." This enforces verisimilitude and keeps people from purchasing a giant 4d6 Attack; if they want it to be, say Armor Piercing, then they cap at 2d6 1/2 (40 Active, or 8 DCs).

 

As far as learning magic outside of your field, you don't. That's all; in my system, you can't cast Conjuration Magic without the Skill: Conjuration. Poof. Either you have it, or you don't summon monsters. Druids & Priests, by contrast, only have one skill: Faith, because their spells are all over the map and they aren't as neatly divided, nor as "powerful" in terms of effects. I wanted Wizardry to be expensive, Druidism & Clericalism to end up about the same.

[runescience]

Re: Turakian magic keeping it balenced?

 

thia: as always, thanks. How do you let players select spells? from a list? or do they build them from scratch? You mentioned summoning, after a summon, do you make the player do a controlled summoned creature spell? Also how many spell schools do you have in your game?

 

Ghost: do you allow deadly blow in your game? I dont like it because it raises the base of a weapon. Also, do you make people do skill rolls on maneuvers? And another question for Ghost: do people make up their own spells? or pick them from the grimoires & Turakian book.

 

Maneuvers look good to me but, I like the concept of a Combat Trick, where the player has to master set of maneuvers with a combat trick roll. I think I read that in the valdorian book.

 

I am currently using a magic skill roll and a vpp. a 35 point vpp is turning out to be a real cost of 38 points coming out of Hdesigner.

 

For any of you: what is the maximum number of spells a person can know using Turakian or otherwise? or do you use a maximum of real points based on int times 'x'...

 

Again, people are welcome to chime in with their opinions.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Turakian magic keeping it balanced?

 

thia: as always' date=' thanks. How do you let players select spells? from a list? or do they build them from scratch? You mentioned summoning, after a summon, do you make the player do a controlled summoned creature spell? Also how many spell schools do you have in your game?[/quote']

 

I just ripped the d20 model, unbroke it and put it into HERO Designer. The threads are on the FH Forum; just search for "Cleric 3.5" and "Wizard 3.5" and they should pop up. I need to do Cleric 5 still although it's too expensive for anyone but a pure caster to purchase. Which, to be frank, was the whole damn point.

 

KS's system uses a 3xVPP = Real for the day; I use a 2xVPP = Real. My schools of magic are: Conjuration, Evocation, Transmutation; Illusion, Abjuration, Enchantment/Charm; Necromancy, Divination; Universal. Those are Greater, Major & Minor Arcana for my campaign (which is based on the... later d20 and/or 3.0 model, IIRC.)

 

Summons are bought as being friendly for the most part, although the more powerful ones you get some giant beast of a summon and have to contest with it. I generally go "by the rules." The spells as I said are in HD, so there's a strict limit on what they can or cannot purchase; the Priest VPP actually has the limitation, "Only Priest Spells, -1/2" to make sure they don't go sneaking in WIZ spells. That, and it makes the Control Cost cheaper.

 

Ghost: do you allow deadly blow in your game? I dont like it because it raises the base of a weapon. Also' date=' do you make people do skill rolls on maneuvers? And another question for Ghost: do people make up their own spells? or pick them from the grimoires & Turakian book.[/quote']

 

Not to speak for GA, but to answer the first question from my own POV: I allow Deadly Blow, but the damage sits "outside" of the stack; in other words, weapon doubling rules apply normally, but the Deadly Blow damage stacks after the rest of the math is done. This retains the utility (more damage!) but keeps it from feeling over-powered. Now back to your regularly scheduled ghost-angel.

 

Maneuvers look good to me but' date=' I like the concept of a Combat Trick, where the player has to master set of maneuvers with a combat trick roll. I think I read that in the valdorian book.[/quote']

 

The party ninja has a multi-power that he uses to represent Martial Arts tricks. So I use this and allow it.

 

I am currently using a magic skill roll and a vpp. a 35 point vpp is turning out to be a real cost of 38 points coming out of Hdesigner.

 

Because of the Control Cost, yes. 1/2 VPP value = Control Cost, and the CC itself is the part that you can make cheaper, not the Base Cost of the VPP (the part that you put the spells in).

 

For any of you: what is the maximum number of spells a person can know using Turakian or otherwise? or do you use a maximum of real points based on int times 'x'...

 

Again, people are welcome to chime in with their opinions.

 

I hate unintentionally sounding like Steve. "This is a setting question." For me, the number of spells known isn't terribly relevant (although wizards have to find scrolls, then scribe them to learn them; a scroll itself counts as equipment) just the number castable per day. Clerics, by this design, "know" all available spells at their level.

[runescience]

Re: Turakian magic keeping it balenced?

 

Just to clarify you allow 2 x VPP Control spells that are known by a person. A quick calculation earlier allowed me to arrive at 35pt vpp controll with all the bells and whistle (disads), so that person according to the formula can know 70 points of real spells?

 

the real spell value being the final value in the individual slots... i find them ranging from 2 to 8 mostly after applying disads.

 

Ive seen your spell hdt/hdc... the are really really good. My players arguments with that is, if we are going to use dnd spells why dont we just play dnd. So I am trying to move away from the conversions.

 

Since you are using the conversions, what do you do for 'saves'?

 

I was toying with adopting the old fantasy trip multi dice save (heros version of will, fort, etc) paradigm. Most normal saves are 3d6. For really easy ones I 3d6 minus 1, 2, or 3. For harder ones roll 4d6. for extremely diff saves roll 5d6.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Turakian magic keeping it balenced?

 

Just to clarify you allow 2 x VPP Control spells that are known by a person. A quick calculation earlier allowed me to arrive at 35pt vpp controll with all the bells and whistle (disads)' date=' so that person according to the formula can know 70 points of real spells?[/quote']

 

No, I allow them to memorize that in a day. I don't put a limit on the number of spells they can know; I just make it a bish to get new spells. I find that capping 'total spells known' is a bit meaningless in most cases.

 

WOOPS. Retraction: SORCERERS can only know 2xVPP at a given time; but they can cast said 2xVPP near infinitely.

 

the real spell value being the final value in the individual slots... i find them ranging from 2 to 8 mostly after applying disads.

 

EH. It SOUNDS right, but between my own builds & KS, you have an almost endless supply of baseline comparisons.

 

Ive seen your spell hdt/hdc... the are really really good. My players arguments with that is' date=' if we are going to use dnd spells why dont we just play dnd. So I am trying to move away from the conversions.[/quote']

 

Because their a) convenient, a meme, and c) save you a lot of trouble coming up with all new spells. I like a lot of what d20 does; I just can't stand the way it does it. "Why play HERO?" "Because comparatively, everything else if f'n unplayable, that's why."

 

Since you are using the conversions' date=' what do you do for 'saves'?[/quote']

 

Ask KS, he has a full writeup I believe; it's one of the things I passed on. There are TONS of ways to create a save system, but I actively did NOT include one. Spells work precisely as they should in HERO, not dragged & dropped to make d20HERO. Like I said, it's a borrowing, not a direct translation.

 

The reason is that in d20, there's no Abort mechanic. When all spells require a to-hit roll as it is, there are already mechanics in place to avoid taking damage. Additionally, with controlled damage levels, a little armor (or Force Field) goes a long way. I found no real compelling reason to include a Save system when HERO already allows most folk to get the heck out of the way should they choose to do so.

 

I was toying with adopting the old fantasy trip multi dice save (heros version of will' date=' fort, etc) paradigm. Most normal saves are 3d6. For really easy ones I 3d6 minus 1, 2, or 3. For harder ones roll 4d6. for extremely diff saves roll 5d6.[/quote']

 

Having never played FT, I can't really comment. But that raises the question; why translate FT Potions into HERO? Why not play FT?

 

I may have to change my quote eventually.

 

HERO. Because comparatively, everything else is f'n unplayable.

[runescience]

Re: Turakian magic keeping it balenced?

 

why do the TFT potions? good question.

 

I wanted to translate over the Fantasy Trip Potions, because the books don't have a lot of potions in them. And aside from the obvious no-brainer Champs to Fantasy power potions(darkness potion, entangle potion, flight potion, aid potion), I wanted to give it some flavor, and also Thought It might be fun.

 

And I agree d20 is almost F'ing unplayable. TFT was a brilliant game. F'ing brilliant. Tight. easy to play and learn. I cant introduce the players to that game now as I have dragged them thru other systems. I am trying to settle on something. I didn't even give shadowrun a thought, or rifts. Savage worlds is quite swashbuckling and REALLY easy to run. I stopped buying savage worlds books because they flipped to savageworld revised edition about a month after I bought the book and I refuse to buy another now.

 

as for why include a save... I was working on the poison gas potion. Its an area effect spell which a person could dive for cover. But what if they dont have an action left? you could always hold your breathe. Then I realized that theres no hold your breath skill... what i should say is that I couldnt come up with a random roll for a quickly realizing that their might be a poison gas in the air, and have a chance to hold their breathe at the last second.

 

Now if it were pulp, id just have them fall asleep and wake up in a cage, trying to avoid an deathdefying scenario... thus avoiding the need for a save

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Turakian magic keeping it balenced?

 

why do the TFT potions? good question.

 

I wanted to translate over the Fantasy Trip Potions, because the books don't have a lot of potions in them. And aside from the obvious no-brainer Champs to Fantasy power potions(darkness potion, entangle potion, flight potion, aid potion), I wanted to give it some flavor, and also Thought It might be fun.

 

Which is precisely the reason I went to the trouble of converting d20 magic; because it has flavor, it has specific rules that it follows, and it removes that horrendous "energy blast/force field/flight" flavor that I often get from HERO when it hasn't been tweaked properly. Most people would just buy the spell, or a power, "Flight." I prefer "Pheather Phall" AND "Levitation" AND "Flight," largely for the verisimilitude. You've answered the question; HERO, as a generic system, is like gelatin. It's horribly uninteresting until you add other things to it to give it flavor.

 

No one buys "HtH attack" with no SFX; they buy Holy Ice Cream Cones of Smiting.

[runescience]

Re: Turakian magic keeping it balenced?

 

Thats fairly reasonable.

 

as for why include a save... I was working on the poison gas potion. Its an area effect spell which a person could dive for cover. But what if they dont have an action left? you could always hold your breathe. Then I realized that theres no hold your breath skill... what i should say is that I couldn't come up with a random roll for a quickly realizing that their might be a poison gas in the air, and have a chance to hold their breathe at the last second.

 

Now if it were pulp, id just have them fall asleep and wake up in a cage, trying to avoid an death-defying scenario... thus avoiding the need for a save

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Turakian magic keeping it balenced?

 

Thats fairly reasonable.

 

as for why include a save... I was working on the poison gas potion. Its an area effect spell which a person could dive for cover. But what if they dont have an action left? you could always hold your breathe. Then I realized that theres no hold your breath skill... what i should say is that I couldn't come up with a random roll for a quickly realizing that their might be a poison gas in the air, and have a chance to hold their breathe at the last second.

 

Now if it were pulp, id just have them fall asleep and wake up in a cage, trying to avoid an death-defying scenario... thus avoiding the need for a save

 

There is too a "hold your breath" skill, so to speak -- it's the drowning rules. Rules up to and including reducing your SPD so you can conserve END.

 

HERO. Because comparatively, everything else is f'n unplayable.

[runescience]

Re: Turakian magic keeping it balanced?

 

well, heck then, I will have to look for it

[runescience]

Re: Turakian magic keeping it balanced?

 

i didnt see the turakian thread below "hows it working for you" maybe we can tack it on to the end? condense the 2?

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Turakian magic keeping it balanced?

 

i didnt see the turakian thread below "hows it working for you" maybe we can tack it on to the end? condense the 2?

 

Wait, what? What are you talking about?

[runescience]

Re: Turakian magic keeping it balanced?

 

theres the "How's the Turakian Age working out for you" thread.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Turakian magic keeping it balanced?

 

I've not GM'ed a TA game, I was a player.

 

We used the spells strait out of the book. No making up your own - simply because it was easier and faster.

 

Number of spells: At the start as many as you are willing to sink points into. Remember you need to buy that Skill Roll up really high to even reliably has spells with a -6 or more to their Skill Roll. With NCM you're sinking a good amount of points just into the Skills - part of the balancing act.

 

Cross arcana... some Arcana are generally considered universal, and you can always redefine any given spell to a different Arcana - it wouldn't be too far fetched for every Arcana to have a master that researches a Detect Magic just for his chosen specialty.

 

After the game starts the GM has total control over the distribution of spells - you can't just say "I spend 4 points for..." - force an In Game Reason. This is the great control of any game, in any system. If you're having a problem with a specific spell talk to the players about removing it.

 

Deadly Blow - it was allowed in a very limited set of circumstances; you could take it with a specific weapon, or vs a specific foe only. And I think, IIRC, that it did not add to base damage.

 

Remember - warriors types get their base damage for free as equipment, not so with spells. Fighter Tricks, Skill Levels, however you count it, I don't know any game where at least one fighter in the group couldn't get maximum absolute damage from a weapon. Which topped at 4D6 Killing - no skill roll needed to make it work, just a To Hit roll, considerably more reliable than the wizard's own high damage spell.

 

The divided by 3 worked fine.

 

Honesty time: You're making a big deal out of nothing at all.

[runescience]

Re: Turakian magic keeping it balanced?

 

Well, honestly not trying make a big deal. Im old and im trying to learn new stuff.

 

I also ask alot of questions, to try to pry away the chaff that gets in the way of my own little brain. Really, us old people learn slower

 

Since I didn't see any reference to max spells, real pts etc in the TA book, I thought I might be missing something. The TA magic offers a new way of approaching magic, and I've never run it this way before. I use to play champions and we use active points to keep things balanced in my game.

 

Currently i'm running a 125 pt game of home brew fantasy hero, and the players haven't gotten to the double weapon base yet.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Turakian magic keeping it balanced?

 

Well, honestly not trying make a big deal. Im old and im trying to learn new stuff.

 

I also ask alot of questions, to try to pry away the chaff that gets in the way of my own little brain. Really, us old people learn slower

 

Since I didn't see any reference to max spells, real pts etc in the TA book, I thought I might be missing something. The TA magic offers a new way of approaching magic, and I've never run it this way before. I use to play champions and we use active points to keep things balanced in my game.

 

Currently i'm running a 125 pt game of home brew fantasy hero, and the players haven't gotten to the double weapon base yet.

 

IIRC, it's Real Cost/3, purchase each spell individually. It's specific to TA.

[runescience]

Re: Turakian magic keeping it balanced?

 

yah. i got it i got it already

[MorpheousXO]

Re: Turakian magic keeping it balanced?

 

Also, a comment on the poison thing and saves, one way of doing poisons it to add "Based on CON" to it, which if I recall correctly would mean they poisoned person would need to succeed at a CON roll. Pretty much a "fort save", only makes more sense to me, and it's a part of the core system, not an addon.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Turakian magic keeping it balanced?

 

Well, honestly not trying make a big deal. Im old and im trying to learn new stuff.

 

I also ask alot of questions, to try to pry away the chaff that gets in the way of my own little brain. Really, us old people learn slower

 

Since I didn't see any reference to max spells, real pts etc in the TA book, I thought I might be missing something. The TA magic offers a new way of approaching magic, and I've never run it this way before. I use to play champions and we use active points to keep things balanced in my game.

 

Currently i'm running a 125 pt game of home brew fantasy hero, and the players haven't gotten to the double weapon base yet.

 

Active Points are a moderately decent, at best, method of "balance" only when everyone is paying points for pretty much everything.

 

Since your warriors aren't paying points for weapons and armor AP takes an almost strait nosedive into a useless measurement. STR Min only coulds that issues further.

 

You want to look at average Damage Classes each character deals with their most common chosen attack, CV Levels, defensive capabilities, and several other factors.

 

Magic Types sinking a lot of points into many spells will run into the issue of not enough points elsewhere at some point.

[Tonio]

Re: Turakian magic keeping it balanced?

 

Also' date=' a comment on the poison thing and saves, one way of doing poisons it to add "Based on CON" to it, which if I recall correctly would mean they poisoned person would need to succeed at a CON roll. Pretty much a "fort save", only makes more sense to me, and it's a part of the core system, not an addon.[/quote']

 

Power Defense (and to some extent, ED) also fill in the role of Fortitude Saves in D&D. D&D doesn't have a "defense" concept (except for Damage Reduction); they lump what HERO calls DCV and Defenses into Armor Class, which creates a necessity for "touch AC", which is basically HERO's DCV. Reflex saves are usually taken care of by DFC (if not, then DCV takes care of it). Will saves are DECV and Mental Defense.