Block vs Dodge

[Kdansky]

Has anyone ever run a detailed analysis on block vs dodge? It's clear that if you ignore the "First after block" and "dodge multiple attacks is better than block multiple attacks" side effects, there is a best defensive reaction to any OCV - OCV / DCV - Combat Levels Situation. I'm planning on writing a small tool to calculate these things, because I'm interested. (I believe Dodge is a lot better than block, but I might be wrong). And I won't do it if someone else already did so.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Block vs Dodge

 

Assuming equal OCV/DCV for both combatants, dodge reduces the chance of being hit from 62.5% to 25.9%, whereas block retains the 62.5% chance of being hit, but then gives a 62.5% chance of voiding any hit.

 

I'm not that good at maths, but basically, you've got a 26% chance of being hit if you dodge, and a 39% chance of being hit if you block, so you are right. Block gets worse for every aditional attempt to hit you.

 

Block allows you to go first next go if you would go on the same phase as your opponent but at a lower DEX.

[archermoo]

Re: Block vs Dodge

 

Assuming equal OCV/DCV for both combatants, dodge reduces the chance of being hit from 62.5% to 25.9%, whereas block retains the 62.5% chance of being hit, but then gives a 62.5% chance of voiding any hit.

 

I'm not that good at maths, but basically, you've got a 26% chance of being hit if you dodge, and a 39% chance of being hit if you block, so you are right. Block gets worse for every aditional attempt to hit you.

 

Block allows you to go first next go if you would go on the same phase as your opponent but at a lower DEX.

 

Dodge also gives you the ability to use any applicable OCV only levels to reduce your chance of being hit.

[Kdansky]

Re: Block vs Dodge

 

Those are the basic facts. But what if your OCV/DCV and the enemies is not the same?

 

Assume OCV 10 - Attack

 

OCV 0 - Defender

DCV 0 - Defender

 

If you dodge, he'll get an 18-, 100% hit chance.

 

If you block, he'll get a 21-, BUT you can roll better than him to block. (attacker rolls 16, you roll 4). True, it's very unlikely, but it's better than 0%. So there are cases where the roles are swapped.

[archermoo]

Re: Block vs Dodge

 

Those are the basic facts. But what if your OCV/DCV and the enemies is not the same?

 

Assume OCV 10 - Attack

 

OCV 0 - Defender

DCV 0 - Defender

 

If you dodge, he'll get an 18-, 100% hit chance.

 

If you block, he'll get a 21-, BUT you can roll better than him to block. (attacker rolls 16, you roll 4). True, it's very unlikely, but it's better than 0%. So there are cases where the roles are swapped.

 

Well, keep in mind that you never have a 100% hit chance. An 18 is always a miss.

[Kdansky]

Re: Block vs Dodge

 

An 18 also misses the blocker, no matter his roll. No difference there, I can handle that however I want, since that's a fixed roll. I'll not even simulate it

 

Dodge is worthless when Attacker's OCV >= Defender's DCV + 10.

Block is worthless when Attacker's OCV >= Defender's OCV + 15.

 

I suspect that block might be better when you are the underdog.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Block vs Dodge

 

An 18 also misses the blocker, no matter his roll. No difference there, I can handle that however I want, since that's a fixed roll. I'll not even simulate it

 

Dodge is worthless when Attacker's OCV >= Defender's DCV + 10.

Block is worthless when Attacker's OCV >= Defender's OCV + 15.

 

I suspect that block might be better when you are the underdog.

 

I suspect that if you are the underdog by that much then it is all pretty academic anyway

[archermoo]

Re: Block vs Dodge

 

An 18 also misses the blocker, no matter his roll. No difference there, I can handle that however I want, since that's a fixed roll. I'll not even simulate it

 

Dodge is worthless when Attacker's OCV >= Defender's DCV + 10.

Block is worthless when Attacker's OCV >= Defender's OCV + 15.

 

I suspect that block might be better when you are the underdog.

 

Well, you listed an 18- hit chance as a 100% chance to hit. I was just pointing out that it isn't.

 

And as a note a Block is never worthless. Just as an 18 always misses a 3 always succeeds.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Block vs Dodge

 

Let us see: Attacker CV = 10, Defender CV = 8

 

Dodge and you get hit 50% of the time.

 

Block and you are hit 62.5% of 83.3% of the time = 52% of the time.

 

I'm thinking you are right, and the breakpoint is between -2 and -3 when comparing your CV to the attackers.

[Kdansky]

Re: Block vs Dodge

 

>

 

And a 1 in 216 chance counts as worthless. That's less than 0.5%. Assuming you are speed 6, block every other phase and combats last 2 full turns, and you have one combat per session and you play once a week, then it still takes you nearly half a year to see this one 1-1-1 roll come up in a block (and probably a 6 or 7 would have sufficed anyway). Yes, that IS worthless. Sensible players rarely try to do things if they only succed on a natural 1 on a d20, and that's 10 times more likely. It only makes sense if you don't have any other option, and that doesn't happen often. You'll probably see that exactly once (or not at all) in your entire life, that your PC is without option but to block that killing blow and then you happen to roll a 1-1-1. So no, I would not consider 3 and 18 special cases. They might be, but for statistics they are insignificant, but complex to calculate.

[archermoo]

Re: Block vs Dodge

 

That means block only outperforms dodge if dodge would have no impact due to changing rolls outside the 3d6 range. In ANY OTHER CASE' date=' dodge vastly outperforms block.[/quote']

 

Assuming that the character in question has no levels that can only be used for OCV.

[archermoo]

Re: Block vs Dodge

 

Edit: I've taken a closer look at the example and I'm not so sure anymore if there's no mistakes in block.

- Attacker rolls well enough to hit.

- Defender rolls better.

That counts as a block. But is that really only 3% tops?

 

Defender doesn't need to roll better to block. They just need to hit the OCV of the attacker with their OCV. How well the attacker hits is immaterial.

 

EDIT: Or even if they hit. The block is rolled before the attacker even rolls to hit.

[Kdansky]

Re: Block vs Dodge

 

Are you telling me I fail at reading the book??

 

Seems so. Hold on, re-doing some things. Wow, that will make the code easier...

[archermoo]

Re: Block vs Dodge

 

Are you telling me I fail at reading the book??

 

Seems so. Hold on, re-doing some things. Wow, that will make the code easier...

 

Probably also change the results.

 

This might explain why this thread has been confusing to me.

[Kdansky]

Re: Block vs Dodge

 

Attacker OCV: 10
ocvA: 10  dcvD, ocvD: 5 hits: 98.1 after dodge: 83.7 after block: 89.0 
ocvA: 10  dcvD, ocvD: 6 hits: 95.3 after dodge: 74.0 after block: 79.9 
ocvA: 10  dcvD, ocvD: 7 hits: 90.7 after dodge: 62.5 after block: 67.2 
ocvA: 10  dcvD, ocvD: 8 hits: 83.7 after dodge: 50.0 after block: 52.3 
ocvA: 10  dcvD, ocvD: 9 hits: 74.0 after dodge: 37.5 after block: 37.0 
ocvA: 10  dcvD, ocvD: 10 hits: 62.5 after dodge: 25.9 after block: 23.4 
ocvA: 10  dcvD, ocvD: 11 hits: 50.0 after dodge: 16.2 after block: 12.9 
ocvA: 10  dcvD, ocvD: 12 hits: 37.5 after dodge: 9.2 after block: 6.0 
ocvA: 10  dcvD, ocvD: 13 hits: 25.9 after dodge: 4.6 after block: 2.4 
ocvA: 10  dcvD, ocvD: 14 hits: 16.2 after dodge: 1.8 after block: 0.7 
ocvA: 10  dcvD, ocvD: 15 hits: 9.2 after dodge: 0.4 after block: 0.1  

 

Next results, reading is different:

hits = percentage of hits.

dodge = percentage of hits, assuming you dodge.

block = percentage of hits, assuming you block.

 

Interestingly these results would refute what I postulated a bit ago. If they are correct, which I still doubt They tell you: If you are the same cv or better, block, if you are worse, dodge. If you are 1 cv below the attacker, you can also block, the difference is marginal.

 

 

 

Obviously I don't need to take attacker's attack roll into regard anymore, which means that 7 ocv vs 7 dcv is exactly the same as 10 vs 10. Before, that would have been different due to bellcurve relations. If you didn't get this sentence, don't bother, I only explained an error of mine.

[Nekkidcarpenter]

Re: Block vs Dodge

 

I don't know that I've ever had a character Dodge in a situation where they had a chance to Block. Partly this is due to usually having skill levels that will apply to my block chance, and partly its due to my desire to have events in my own hands. I will roll to block you and then you don't even get to roll to try and hit me. Your miracle roll has no chance because you don't get to make one.

 

I also frequently find myself Blocking for someone else, which is pretty hard to do with Dodge.

 

'Haha! I interpose myself between Grond and the beautiful but fragile Sparrow! When he attacks her I'll dance nimbly out of the way!'

[Kdansky]

Re: Block vs Dodge

 

Yes, absolutely, Blocking for someone else is something useful. The question at hand was: If you're one on one against an equal level enemy, should you abort to block or dodge if he tries to hit you? I also like to roll my defenses myself, but that is actually more dangerous than letting the GM roll

*If* he fudges dice, he'll not kill me with it, but he just *might* let me survive. But that is a bit too meta

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Block vs Dodge

 

from a sheerly experiential point of view...

 

in a lot of our old groups games "I Half Move and Dodge" was almost shorthand for "I expect to be targeted with more attacks than I have any hope in Hades of Blocking/Deflecting".

Very rarely did Dodge show up as the preferred "If he hits me I'm gonna DIE" defense. That honor usually went to Block.

[Inu]

Re: Block vs Dodge

 

from a sheerly experiential point of view...

 

in a lot of our old groups games "I Half Move and Dodge" was almost shorthand for "I expect to be targeted with more attacks than I have any hope in Hades of Blocking/Deflecting".

Very rarely did Dodge show up as the preferred "If he hits me I'm gonna DIE" defense. That honor usually went to Block.

Which might just be down to the idea that if you're fighting for your life, you wanna have some say in it -- block lets you roll dice yourself, dodge doesn't.

 

For those working out numbers, how does martial dodge work out against martial block?

[Kdansky]

Re: Block vs Dodge

 

Well, you *can* read that out of the table, but I'll quickly add it:

 

Those are Martials:

Attacker OCV: 10
ocvA: 10  dcvD, ocvD: 3 hits: 98.1 after dodge: 83.7 after block: 89.0 
ocvA: 10  dcvD, ocvD: 4 hits: 95.3 after dodge: 74.0 after block: 79.9 
ocvA: 10  dcvD, ocvD: 5 hits: 90.7 after dodge: 62.5 after block: 67.2 
ocvA: 10  dcvD, ocvD: 6 hits: 83.7 after dodge: 50.0 after block: 52.3 
ocvA: 10  dcvD, ocvD: 7 hits: 74.0 after dodge: 37.5 after block: 37.0 
ocvA: 10  dcvD, ocvD: 8 hits: 62.5 after dodge: 25.9 after block: 23.4 
ocvA: 10  dcvD, ocvD: 9 hits: 50.0 after dodge: 16.2 after block: 12.9 
ocvA: 10  dcvD, ocvD: 10 hits: 37.5 after dodge: 9.2 after block: 6.0 
ocvA: 10  dcvD, ocvD: 11 hits: 25.9 after dodge: 4.6 after block: 2.4 
ocvA: 10  dcvD, ocvD: 12 hits: 16.2 after dodge: 1.8 after block: 0.7 
ocvA: 10  dcvD, ocvD: 13 hits: 9.2 after dodge: 0.4 after block: 0.1 
ocvA: 10  dcvD, ocvD: 14 hits: 4.6 after dodge: 0.0 after block: 0.0 
ocvA: 10  dcvD, ocvD: 15 hits: 1.8 after dodge: 0.0 after block: 0.0 

 

Sorry, that was a typo.

 

And since you go from

 

Dodge: "not relevant" / +3

Block: +0 / +0

 

to

 

MDodge: "not relevant" / +5

BLock: +2 / +2

 

it's exactly the same. Just +2 on all stats

[Inu]

Re: Block vs Dodge

 

So martial block beats martial dodge when fighting a single opponent of higher skill than you. Cool.

 

Or, yes, if you have OCV levels in whatever you're using.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Block vs Dodge

 

Dodge also gives you the ability to use any applicable OCV only levels to reduce your chance of being hit.

 

I think you meant to say Block instead of Dodge in this post.

[Kenn]

Re: Block vs Dodge

 

What about Marital Block vs Marital Dodge?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

No. Not "Martial". "Marital."

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Block vs Dodge

 

Another idea to consider is that many special HTH attacks are built* with Indirect and AOE 1 Hex Accurate.

 

The typical way to handle these is to have Indirect allow the attack to ignore Block and have AOE 1 Hex Accurate ignore Dodge (and allow the reverse; Indirect CAN be Dodged, AOE 1 Hex Accurate CAN be Blocked).

 

*This most easily done by using Advantaged HA's (Hand To Hand Attacks) whose Damage Class can be increased by up to double the original HA's DC with STR.

[Kdansky]

Re: Block vs Dodge

 

There's still Dive for cover (or Flying Dodge) in these cases.