Flash, Flash Defense, Cost Vs. Value

[incrdbil]

Re: Flash, Flash Defense, Cost Vs. Value

 

Sigh.

 

 

 

That's what soured me to the Power. Nothing spoils the fun more for me than having the rules get in the way of the story.

 

 

I have to agree with those who say the rules didn't get in the way here. Under either edition your power wasn't going to have much of an effect, and the setup indicates that the teams coordination wasnt set up to make use of it even if it had.

[Markdoc]

Re: Flash, Flash Defense, Cost Vs. Value

 

Sigh.

 

The smart thing here would be just to drop this whole discussion, but hey, never let it be said I'm not a glutton for punishment.

 

Allow me to explain something about the situation I described. I was not expecting the Flash to be a wildy successful maneuver; I certainly did not expect it to do more than lower the villain's monstruous DCV down to a bit more manageable level for a Phase, tops.

 

I was trying what I thought was a dramatic and cinematic solution to help at least nudge the odds a bit to our side. But instead of being at least somewhat helpful, it ended up a total bust, not because of the maneuver, but because the rules mechanics failed to live up to the expected effect.

 

I understand that: it happens sometimes, and is just unfortunate. But as I see it, it's not a problem with Flash per se: it was just a misunderstanding. If you had known of the change, you could have coordinated with your team mates to have exactly the effect you wanted. So I just don't see it as a problem with the mechanic - just a misunderstanding of how the mechanic changed between 4 and 5.

 

That's what soured me to the Power. Nothing spoils the fun more for me than having the rules get in the way of the story.

 

It's like playing in a swashbuckling game and realizing that, following the RAW, the most likely outcome of trying to swing across the room on the chandelier is that your character will fall and break his fool neck (a situation that happened to me in another game altogether many moons ago).

 

And I agree with that, more or less. The rules should be set up (and can be set up) to let the players be appropriately heroic. But if the GM starts bending the rules too much out of shape, then nobody - player or GM - knows what the characters can do and when. The whole thing starts to be come arbitrary and that usually presages the death of the game. The rules are a guide and a good GM knows when to depart from that guide. But in general a good GM knows not to depart from that guide too often, or it ceases to become a guide.

 

A sympathetic GM would have picked up on the fact that you'd tripped over a version change and pointed it out, letting you play that maneuver appropriately. I am a pretty sympathetic GM, so I'd do that. But I wouldn't let a player decide it'd be cooler if the rules actually worked differently and play them like that.

 

cheers, Mark

[NestorDRod]

Re: Flash, Flash Defense, Cost Vs. Value

 

Mooks generally have much lower speeds than 5, and no flash defense at all.

 

Well, that's sort of the point. With a SPD 3 mook, a Flash resulting in less than, say, 4 Segments, has a good chance of clearing before he has to take his next action, i.e., the Flash doesn't affect him. Yes, yes, I know, his DCV is down during those 4 Segments, but he isn't doing anything during that period anyway.

 

Flash workds at a flat time rate because if it worked by character phases, the power wears off quicker based on SPD. For example, a speed 2 character vs a speed 6 character under the old rules was blinded 3 times longer. SPD has nothing to do with eyes clearing up from bing dazzled or ears to stop ringing. Unless we wanted to make Flash somehow affected by recovery or con in terms of becoming unaffected, a per-segment allocation of time of being flashed makes a lot more sense than basing it on the targets SPD.

 

I don't follow what you mean exactly. SPD already affects how quickly someone recovers from being Stunned or how much STUN a character can Recover per Turn, so why not Recovering from a Flash?

 

SPD represents reaction time; how quickly your character can process input and respond to it. If we establish the base effect of Flash as overpowering or otherwise disabling a character's sense, why is it illogical to expect a person with a faster reaction time to overcome the effects quicker?

 

Flas is better off now, ebcause before, 10 points of Flash Defense made you pretyt much flash immune. Now, 10 points of flash defense helps, but a 60 pt flash attack will still get you for a little while on average. Defenses are, of course, supposed to be cheaper than attacks, but Flash Defense was way too effective of a defense under the old version.

 

Again, I'm confused. Having the Recovery based on Segments instead of Phases cuts down the base duration of the Flash already. Adding Flash Defense just cuts it down even more. Assuming a 60 pt. Flash gets you a result of 12 BOD on the roll, using my suggested change, a target with 10 points of Flash Defense would be affected 2 of his Phases. Using RAW, he would be affected 2 Segments. How is that making Flash better off?

 

The issue is not the effectiveness of Flash Defense, it's the efficiency of Flash.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Flash, Flash Defense, Cost Vs. Value

 

Again, I'm confused. Having the Recovery based on Segments instead of Phases cuts down the base duration of the Flash already. Adding Flash Defense just cuts it down even more. Assuming a 60 pt. Flash gets you a result of 12 BOD on the roll, using my suggested change, a target with 10 points of Flash Defense would be affected 2 of his Phases. Using RAW, he would be affected 2 Segments. How is that making Flash better off?

 

 

Well in 4th Flash was single target, 10 pts per die, vs phases.

 

5th the cost was cut in half, but went against segments.

 

Seems okay to me.

[Markdoc]

Re: Flash, Flash Defense, Cost Vs. Value

 

Again' date=' I'm confused. Having the Recovery based on Segments instead of Phases cuts down the base duration of the Flash already. Adding Flash Defense just cuts it down even more. Assuming a 60 pt. Flash gets you a result of 12 BOD on the roll, using my suggested change, a target with 10 points of Flash Defense would be affected 2 of his Phases. Using RAW, he would be affected 2 [b']Segments[/b]. How is that making Flash better off?

 

Remember, under the old rules, that 60 points would get you an average of 6 BOD, so the target would be affected for 0 phases. The new rules give Flash a better chance of getting through defences, but mean that it generally lasts a shorter time when it does so.

 

cheers, Mark

[Tonio]

Re: Flash, Flash Defense, Cost Vs. Value

 

This thread makes me wanna make a character around Flash.

 

Which works nicely, since I'm starting a villain campaign (the PCs are villains rather than heroes), so have a "Paladin" Superhero would be a great "boss" for the PCs to fight.

[NestorDRod]

Re: Flash, Flash Defense, Cost Vs. Value

 

Remember, under the old rules, that 60 points would get you an average of 6 BOD, so the target would be affected for 0 phases. The new rules give Flash a better chance of getting through defences, but mean that it generally lasts a shorter time when it does so.

 

cheers, Mark

 

Point taken, sir. I did forget to account for the cost change. My bad.

 

Like I said, though, my issue is with the effectiveness of Flash, not Flash Defense.

[incrdbil]

Re: Flash, Flash Defense, Cost Vs. Value

 

I don't follow what you mean exactly. SPD already affects how quickly someone recovers from being Stunned or how much STUN a character can Recover per Turn, so why not Recovering from a Flash?

 

Because SPD isnt a healing characteristic. You don't use actions to become 'unflashed' itds an automatic effect. Recovery from Stun, or being stunned, is based on the use of an action. Since using an action was never involved in getting over a flash, why should a character with a higher SPD become unflashed quicker than anyone else? Is there something different about the eyes or eardrums of a character with a higher SPD?

 

Flash based on segments gives a far more measureable effect. right now a 60 point flash will produce an effect that will last around 12 segements, no matter who it is aimed at. What determines its effectiveness is the targets defense.

 

A Flash thats is determined on the targets SPD..well, who knows what its effect is? Maybe that flash blinds them for a coupe of turns, maybe its over quickly.

 

 

SPD represents reaction time; how quickly your character can process input and respond to it.

 

It's a number of actiosn you can do, but isnt tied to processing input. Flash isnt input, its the disabling of a sense. A really fast reacting guy isnt goign to always have eyes that are less prone to being blind.

 

If we establish the base effect of Flash as overpowering or otherwise disabling a character's sense, why is it illogical to expect a person with a faster reaction time to overcome the effects quicker?

Because reaction time has nothing to do with recovery.

 

 

 

Again, I'm confused. Having the Recovery based on Segments instead of Phases cuts down the base duration of the Flash already. Adding Flash Defense just cuts it down even more. Assuming a 60 pt. Flash gets you a result of 12 BOD on the roll, using my suggested change, a target with 10 points of Flash Defense would be affected 2 of his Phases. Using RAW, he would be affected 2 Segments. How is that making Flash better off?

 

Under the old system, that 60 point flash only got 6 BOD of effect, on average. Making flash cost 5 points and work on phases is..well, quite overpowering.

[NestorDRod]

Re: Flash, Flash Defense, Cost Vs. Value

 

Because reaction time has nothing to do with recovery.

 

Well, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on that one...