Value of AVLD

[Checkmate]

I was thinking about a character who had a sword that can "Cut through anything, save that which lives". That's the concept, but I know how Hero deals with absolutes, so it's actually Cut through anything a 5d6HKA can cut through.

 

The second part, is if a person gets wacked with the sword, it won't cut them but it's gonna hurt. So the plan is to link the 5d6HKA to an AVLD Hand Attack (or maybe no range EB depending on how the Advantages work out). The Defense will be any organic defenses.

 

Now if I defined it as Power Defense the value of AVLD would be +1 1/2. That seems fair for that, however, most people's PD and ED will reduce my attack. Pretty much everyone I attack will have at least SOME defense against it. Plus with a normal AVLD, there's only ONE type of defense you can have. If I say the Defense is Power Defense, you either have power defense, or your take full damage. With what I'm proposing if someone has say a power bought as Armor, that puts Tree Bark around them, it defends against my attack.

 

With all that in mind, if you were the GM, what would you say the value of that Advantage is?

 

Part II of that is if I had a 20 STR and 6d6 AVLD HA, would it be 10d6 AVLD?

[Doc Samson]

Re: Value of AVLD

 

With all that in mind, if you were the GM, what would you say the value of that Advantage is?

 

Part II of that is if I had a 20 STR and 6d6 AVLD HA, would it be 10d6 AVLD?

I would make an AVLD vs. living defenses a +3/4 Advantage. Reference, 5ER pg. 251:

Furthermore, AVLD only costs +¾ if the defense

against it is extraordinarily common (moreso

than the defense ordinarily applied against the

power) or is simply a limited form of the power’s

standard defense.

I believe you are correct and the attack would be 10d6. Reference, 5ER pg. 408:

A character who has a Power Advantage on an

HA (or other Normal Damage attack to which he

adds STR damage) does not also have to buy that

Advantage for his STR, and may apply the Advantage

to the dice of damage provided/added by STR,

if either of these situations exists:

—the character only uses his STR up to the

unmodifi ed Active Point value of the HA

—the unmodifi ed Active Point value of the

HA equals or exceeds the character’s STR.

[Dead guy on tab]

Re: Value of AVLD

 

I would think a better way to buy this is as a NND (+1) does BODY (+1) with the defense as organic matter. This would prevent the sword from doing any damage to a living creature (even STUN). You would still need to buy the advantage does BODY (+1) for it to do BODY and you'd need to define a defense. I would think the NND would be a much better fit.

[Diamond_J]

Re: Value of AVLD

 

I was thinking about a character who had a sword that can "Cut through anything, save that which lives". That's the concept, but I know how Hero deals with absolutes, so it's actually Cut through anything a 5d6HKA can cut through.

 

The second part, is if a person gets wacked with the sword, it won't cut them but it's gonna hurt. So the plan is to link the 5d6HKA to an AVLD Hand Attack (or maybe no range EB depending on how the Advantages work out). The Defense will be any organic defenses.

 

Now if I defined it as Power Defense the value of AVLD would be +1 1/2. That seems fair for that, however, most people's PD and ED will reduce my attack. Pretty much everyone I attack will have at least SOME defense against it. Plus with a normal AVLD, there's only ONE type of defense you can have. If I say the Defense is Power Defense, you either have power defense, or your take full damage. With what I'm proposing if someone has say a power bought as Armor, that puts Tree Bark around them, it defends against my attack.

 

With all that in mind, if you were the GM, what would you say the value of that Advantage is?

 

You are over complicating, the solution is easier then you believe. IF you want the sword to have multiple application simply framework it into a multi-power. This is practically what multi-powers were made for

 

Example: This is what you really want

 

62 Multi-power (125pts) Grasscutter Sword (OAF, -1)

4u Cut through anything: 3D6+1 HKA (4D6 with STR), double

penetrating (+1), Reduced END (0 END, +1/2) inanimate objects only

(-3/4)(nothing sentient, nothing with a sole), OAF (-1)

5u Soul Divide: 7D6 HTH (9D6 with STR) NND (defense is thick

protective armour / force field, +1), Ranged (+1/2), Reduced END

(0 END, +1/2), OAF (-1)

 

Part II of that is if I had a 20 STR and 6d6 AVLD HA, would it be 10d6 AVLD?

 

An AVLD raises the value of each die in the attack. That is to say applying more levels of DC will translate to a steeper cost. It would cost 12 pts of STR to increase the DC by one level (5 x 2.5 = 12.5 rounded down in you favour as always). The attack therefore would be 7D6 HTH attack AVLD with STR).

 

As is my above sample with the NND attack (which is more like what you want) it also raises the value of the DC from 5 to 10. Not every advantage does this however, the END advantage does not reflect how damage is dealt and therefore does not change the cost of STR to DC. To complicate things further the only the first level of armor piercing increases the DC since the secound level is merely in place to counter the effect of hardened defences. The secound rank also has no benificial effect on the way damage is calculated though the first rank does. So in this case it takes only 7pts of STR to raise the DC (Note that you must use full STR values when adding damage and may not round off)

 

If you have any further questions I'll be happy to answer them

[BoloOfEarth]

Re: Value of AVLD

 

The problem with the Multipower (at least, IMO) is that it's one or the other. With the way he described the sword, if I was wearing plate mail, it would slice through it but not slice through me -- however, it would hurt me (STUN only). The Multipower would either (1) slice the plate mail but do nothing at all to me, or (2) hurt me, but do nothing at all to the plate mail.

 

I think a Linked attack fits better. For example:

 

Cut through nonliving: 2D6 HKA (3d6+1 with STR), NND (+1, defense is organic matter), Does BODY (+1) Reduced END (0 END, +1/2), OAF (-1) = 52 points

 

+ Hurt the living: 6d6 HA, AVLD (+3/4, defense is organic PD), OAF (-1), Does no damage to inorganics (-1/2), Linked to HKA (-1/2) = 15 points.

 

Against Mechanon, the sword would do the HKA damage to the mechanized menace, like a hot knife through butter.

 

Against Defender, the sword would seriously damage his battlesuit (HKA damage to the OIF) and hurt him underneath (poor Defender only gets his natural PD against the HA).

 

Against Windstorm, the HKA does nothing at all, but the HA bypasses his non-living "wind force field" and he only gets his natural PD against that damage.

 

Against Grond, the HKA does nothing at all, and most of the HA damage is deflected by his natural armor.

 

Against the first Terminator robot, the skin covers the metal completely (so the HKA does no damage), and the robot is inorganic (so the HA does no damage).

 

At least, that's my take on it.

[Kenn]

Re: Value of AVLD

 

Why not "5d6 HKA, cannot do BODY damage to living matter(-1/2)" ?

[Checkmate]

Re: Value of AVLD

 

Bolo has it exactly, with the exception of the Terminator example. The Terminator would take the HA damage just as if he were hit with a club. They need to be linked so the OIF's get damaged as the HA gets through.

 

Kenn,

I thought about your idea, but dismissed it because I want the ability to do body. HA can conceivably do BODY damage. The effect is that the sword is like a club against organic things. If I hit your arm hard enough with a club it's going to break (do BODY).

 

I never really thought about making the HKA NND, but I think that would just be too powerful, especially against people like Mechanon, so I'll leave that part out.

 

It does seem though most of you agree that it should be +3/4 though?

[JmOz]

Re: Value of AVLD

 

Here is what you do.

 

Buy the basic attack

 

Buy the AVLD (or better IMO NND: Not vs living flesh, I'd allow it) as a naked advantage to said attack, include does body

[Checkmate]

Re: Value of AVLD

 

Here is what you do.

 

Buy the basic attack

 

Buy the AVLD (or better IMO NND: Not vs living flesh, I'd allow it) as a naked advantage to said attack, include does body

I think you're confusing the two attacks, or I don't understand what you mean.

 

There is a Killing Attack (HKA) that doesn't effect organic things. Does no damage to them at all. Against inorganic things, it does normal Killing Attack damage. This is where I COULD add the NND not vs Organic Does BODY, and it would make sense, but don't want to go that route as I feel it's just too effective (although I am still considering it).

 

Then there is a Hand Attack portion that DOES effect organic things. Basically the magic of the sword won't let the sword cut you, but you still got hit with a heavy metal object that just cut through whatever you were wearing, that's where the AVLD comes in.

[JmOz]

Re: Value of AVLD

 

I think you're confusing the two attacks, or I don't understand what you mean.

 

There is a Killing Attack (HKA) that doesn't effect organic things. Does no damage to them at all. Against inorganic things, it does normal Killing Attack damage. This is where I COULD add the NND not vs Organic Does BODY, and it would make sense, but don't want to go that route as I feel it's just too effective (although I am still considering it).

 

Then there is a Hand Attack portion that DOES effect organic things. Basically the magic of the sword won't let the sword cut you, but you still got hit with a heavy metal object that just cut through whatever you were wearing, that's where the AVLD comes in.

 

Ohh, no confusion, I understand what you are saying, the misconception is the idea that a sword HAS to be a KA, ESPECIALY if you have applied a NND/AVLD element to it

 

Take a step back and think of the mechanical effect you want for the F/X

 

You want to do body to inorganic objectss consistantly while basicaly hitting organics with a club

 

The club (shaped like a sword) would be a HA, I think we can all agree

 

So how to consistantly "Cut through anything", as an absolute you are looking at an NND*, so you want to do body, normaly you turn to a KA for that, but a HA still does do SOME body, so if you make the naked modifier to the sword (Which is stated like a club) a NND does BODY (For a heafty +2 advantage) you get a sword that can cut through anything (The NND Does Body not vs organics). Now assuming you build the sword as a +4d6 HA, you will on average do 4 body with the swinging of the sword (Plus strength), or about the same as a 1d6+1 HKA. You are of course giving up the "stun Lotto" by building it this way, which may or may not be a good thing

 

A rough build

 

Souls Sword**

12 +4d6 HA, 0 endurance (+1/2), -1/2 HA, -1 OAF

45 Naked Modifier to Soul Sword HA (up to 30 active points): NND: Not vs organic targets (+1), Does Body (+1) (60 base points) +1/2 advantage (90 Active Points), -1 OAF

----

57 Points

 

In play the NND gets added to the HA when the targetr is inorganic, making on average 4 body (Plus STR) and 14 stun (plus STR) effect the inorganic, while the same, minus defences vs organic

 

* of course if you do want a AVLD with a limitation you can build it that way as well, that is imaterial to the point I am making about using a HA with a naked mod instead of a KA and a linked HA

 

**I may have calculated this wrong, as I am not 100% Comfortable with Naked mods

[Checkmate]

Re: Value of AVLD

 

I'm still not sure I follow you. The reason I can't go with NND is that I want to damage any inorganic OIF they have covering themselves (Iron Man's armor, Captain America's chainmail etc.) while doing club damage to the person. NND is an all or nothing attack, so Organic Defenses would either stop it totally, or they'd take full damage by it.

 

For example let's take a look at Tony Stark as Iron Man, inside his armor. Let's say that the armor has +27 DEF which adds to Tony's normal PD of 3.

 

I use my Sword on him and I hit him. His armor is bought as an OIF and can be broken, so I roll the HKA and find the damage makes it through his Armor's Defenses. This means the Focus has been damaged in some way. Tony takes no damage (BODY or STUN) from the HKA since it doesn't effect inorganic. However, there is also an AVLD Hand Attack, that, in meta-game terms, would completely by pass Tony's Iron Man armor and only be effected by his normal 3 PD. The SFX is that the sword cuts through the armor, damaging that, but doesn't cut Tony's skin so he just takes the impact damage.

 

Does that make more sense?

[Dead guy on tab]

Re: Value of AVLD

 

I understand the adder, but if you wanted the AVLD to have the potential to do BODY, you would need to add the advantage does BODY (+1) since AVLD's automatically don't do BODY.

[Checkmate]

Re: Value of AVLD

 

I understand the adder' date=' but if you wanted the AVLD to have the potential to do BODY, you would need to add the advantage does BODY (+1) since AVLD's automatically don't do BODY.[/quote']

 

GAH! You're right, forgot all about that, thanks.

[Dead guy on tab]

Re: Value of AVLD

 

I think you're confusing the two attacks, or I don't understand what you mean.

 

There is a Killing Attack (HKA) that doesn't effect organic things. Does no damage to them at all. Against inorganic things, it does normal Killing Attack damage. This is where I COULD add the NND not vs Organic Does BODY, and it would make sense, but don't want to go that route as I feel it's just too effective (although I am still considering it).

 

Then there is a Hand Attack portion that DOES effect organic things. Basically the magic of the sword won't let the sword cut you, but you still got hit with a heavy metal object that just cut through whatever you were wearing, that's where the AVLD comes in.

 

Here's how I would build it:

 

1 1/2d6 HKA NND (not vs. organics) Does Body (+1) - 75 points

4d6 HA AVLD (+3/4 vs. PD) Linked - 18 pts.

 

This would do on average (w/strength) - 9.5 BODY 25 STUN (3d6-1) to non-organics (no defense) and 28 STUN (8d6) (vs. PD) to organics. If you wished the second part to do BODY it would increase the cost of the AVLD to

28 points. I would rule that the NND would damage any non-organic material until enough BODY is stopped or it hit's an organic source. So in Iron Man, his armor would take 9.5 BODY and no STUN. Tony would take 25 Stun from the AVLD and probably be stunned. Does this fit what you are trying to do?

[BoloOfEarth]

Re: Value of AVLD

 

So, amending my earlier build to fit things said afterward:

 

Cut through nonliving: 4D6 HKA (5d6+1 with STR), Reduced END (0 END, +1/2), OAF (-1), Does no damage to organics (-3/4) = 33 points

 

+ Impact damage: 6d6 HA, AVLD (+3/4, defense is organic PD), Does BODY (+1), Reduced END (Half END, +1/4), OAF (-1), Linked to HKA (-1/2), HA Limitation (-1/2) = 30 points.

 

This drops the NND Does BODY from the HKA, as Checkmate indicated, and adds Does BODY and drops Does No Damage to Inorganics from the HA.

[Dead guy on tab]

Re: Value of AVLD

 

You should consider the amount of damage you want this attack to do, i.e. do you want it to do substantially more damage to low def robots than high def robots or do you want them to take the same damage. Assume average robot is (15 rPD/25 PD) and Mechanon is (30 rPD/50 PD). Here are three ways to simulate a weapon that cuts through anything:

 

75 active points with 20 Strength

A) 1 1/2d6 HKA NND Does Body

5d6 HKA

C) 2d6+1 HKA Double Penetrating

 

On average, Average Robot will take

A) 10.5 BODY 28 STUN

7 BODY 34 STUN

C) 4 BODY 7 STUN

 

On average, Mechanon will take

A) 10.5 BODY 28 STUN

No BODY, 9 STUN

C) 4 BODY, 4 STUN

 

The Maximum Average Robot will take

A) 18 BODY 90 STUN

21 BODY 160 STUN

C) 7 BODY 80 STUN

 

On average, Mechanon will take

A) 18 BODY 90 STUN

7 BODY, 135 STUN

C) 7 BODY, 55 STUN

 

It appears to me that a sword that can cut through anything shouldn't do substantial more damage against a weaker foe - thus build A or C might be preferably. Just my 0.02

[BoloOfEarth]

Re: Value of AVLD

 

I personally agree, which is why my initial writeup had NND Does BODY. I only changed it to a 4d6 HKA because Checkmate said he didn't want to do NND Does BODY.

[Checkmate]

Re: Value of AVLD

 

Yeah, while I agree that the NND HKA is a more accurate build, I just feel that it is way too powerful to robot type characters. So the more reinforced they are, the less damage they're going to take.

[Dead guy on tab]

Re: Value of AVLD

 

The other way to reduce the impact is to reduce the dice in the HKA - it will still cut through anything, just at a lower damage (and point cost) level.

[Dead guy on tab]

Re: Value of AVLD

 

An additional thought -you could combine the two effects as a HKA AVLD (living PD). Thus, the robots would take the full body damage and living things would be able to apply their full PD to the killing damage, but still have the stun to deal with.