The Spirit of Superheroing

[Chris-M]

So Mighty God King's blog entry today [warning: work-safe graphics but does include prominent use of the f-word] cracked me up (plus, I love the slogan on his blog logo -- ninja dogs, heh!), but it also made me realize why I love superhero comics so much.

 

This is turn caused me to reflect on past gaming experiences where I tried to bring hardcore D&D players over to Champions. One of the puzzling common experiences has been D&D players who don't seem to get what the whole four-color superhero thing is about and staunchly hold to a "risk adverse unless there's something in it to me" philosophy. Now that I'm luring people away from 4e, I'm encountering some of this again.

 

My approach in the past has been to basically plead with them to just accept the genre conventions and act like heroes, dammit, but I always feel a bit cheezy doing this. I love the genre and I love its conventions, but there must be a better way to get players who don't seem to get them to buy in. Sure, by running a solid campaign and rewarding the attitude and play-style you're looking for you can eventually win them over, but is there a way to get that buy-in sooner, preferably from day one?

 

Other than sending them to MGK's blog to read all the Rex the Wonder Dog entries and hoping they get it, what else might work?

[Scifi_Toughguy]

Re: The Spirit of Superheroing

 

First thing that popped into my mind is to drop them in a setting where everyone acts just like they do. I'm not sure it would work.

 

My feelings are such that its all in the set up. As the GM you have to lay ground rules for the type of game you want to play. If they're not into the genre conventions then it may be better to play a different type of game. (still using Hero of course)

 

Games are much better when all of the parties agree on what will be fun from the outset and then work to that goal. If only 25% of the group thinks that particular style of game will be fun then the other 75% will more than likely drag the game down.

 

Something that may work is to use the existing vessels of the medium to convey your message. Grab a favorite comic book or arc and have them read that. Then you can point at that and say: This is the kind of game we should be running. You can do the same thing with Superhero movies.

 

I have a powered armor character in my group of players. We went to see Iron Man and after the movie I mentioned to the player that they could get a lot of inspiration from the film and the character.

[BNakagawa]

Re: The Spirit of Superheroing

 

make them look bad.

 

Have a non-powered NPC grab all the glory by jumping into the burning building to save the child trapped inside.

 

Have weaker NPC heroes struggle against villains that eventually overpower them and steal stuff, but have the NPC heroes lauded for trying to do the right thing.

 

If they have no interest in doing the right things for the right reasons, then have the world begin to lose interest and/or respect for them. Superpowered self-interested mercenaries? who needs em?

[Vulcan]

Re: The Spirit of Superheroing

 

I think he's trying to encourage his players to play superheroes, not drive them to play another game entirely.

[Chris-M]

Re: The Spirit of Superheroing

 

Indeed. And it's not that these guys in particular are bad guys or bad gamers or anything like that. I've played with very few such players who don't get it eventually. I'm just looking for ways to try to shorten the time it takes them to get it and get in the proper spirit of things.

 

Great suggestions, Scifi_Toughguy. BNakagawa, I think those suggestions could actually work if applied with some humor and handled carefully -- I don't want to make it a competitive situation where the players feel like I'm having the NPCs show them up just to say "you guys, suck!"

 

Your suggestion also makes me ponder whether there's some way to give them immediate goals that seem to play to what they want to do (hack, slash, and loot) but that in fact put them in situations where the real glory and satisfaction is in true superheroing. My gut tells me that this might work, although I'm not sure I'm clever (or devious) enough to pull it off. I'll have to give it some more thought.

[Trebuchet]

Re: The Spirit of Superheroing

 

Make certain the heroes are praised by the civilians they rescue and the authorities. Have the local police chief or governor tell them they couldn't have done it without the heroes.

 

Very few players will be immune to some judicious indirect flattery.

[Vulcan]

Re: The Spirit of Superheroing

 

If the PC's are used to 'hack, slash, loot' then perhaps the city could give them stuff as they defeat threats (and stay in 'genre' while doing so). A base, a PR consultant, contacts with PRIMUS or other useful organizations, a vehicle, favors (especially favors) all sorts of things make good rewards for players who do well.

 

Just as bad things happen to heros who do bad things (I know, I've had a character wind up in Stronghold for his - granted, pre-game - actions); good things should occasionally happen to the heroes who really try.

[Chris-M]

Re: The Spirit of Superheroing

 

Trebuchet, one thing I always try to do is establish early on that the campaign is the PC's show, and even if they aren't the biggest and most beloved heroes initially, it is their destiny to become so if they can rise to the challenge. I find if that if you can get the group to buy into the idea that becoming more famous and respected than the Avengers (or whomever) is a cool thing to strive for, they're a lot more inclined to go with your flow. I'll make sure to play the NPC praise card early on to try to win over my hack-and-slashers.

 

Vulcan, I'd never thought of just reconceptualizing the idea of loot like that before. Great idea, and I'll definitely have to try that.

[Atomic Ray]

Re: The Spirit of Superheroing

 

Hmmm, a while back I had a group who went this direction and then the next step...wolverines, punishers, bullseye, guns, knives, killer claws, AP KA, you know hero stuff cause superheroes stop bad guys with extreme intentions right?

 

Well I solved their blood lust with the group being invited to be villains by the local superbadguys group...the players were so initially excited to be free of hero restraints that they found so alien...soon the bank robbery led to a school bus full of hostages which led to the players having to make a real choice...and this night ended with the characters in jail, looking pretty sad, morning papers headlining them as turncoats...all in all they were frustrated and disappointed.

 

A call for new characters was voted upon and they elected for a family group of brothers from the Midwest, raised on the farm, common power themes with each having that one great element over the other brother (strongest, fastest, etc.) and they created a common history of grandpa being a super and mom/dad paying the price as papa's main enemy killed them in revenge...so in the honor of their slain parents they moved to Chicago to bring the super villain to justice (not kill him) and stayed to make a difference.

 

I would say the easiest way is to use the above examples of right things to do and use your knowledge of the players to bring about change...take the things they all dislike and make the badguys all about those things.

 

 

Best of luck

 

Atomic Ray

[bubba smith]

Re: The Spirit of Superheroing

 

here's an idea if the players want to act like VILLIANS rather than HEROES the gm should LET them try,without giving away all the campaign plot and when they see its more fun to play HEROIC CHARACTERS let them go back to that or assign each player one hero and one villian to play

[Scifi_Toughguy]

Re: The Spirit of Superheroing

 

I thought a little more on it. I believe that the public image could be a crucial aspect for the players. In hack and slash, the players are usually nomads and if a situation doesn't generate good press for the group, they simply move on and make a note not to visit that town for a while. In the super hero business, you're pretty consolidated on fixed in your hometown or place of residence. Its a lot harder to avoid the consequences of your actions by simply moving on to the grass on the other hill.

 

Reward them with popularity and adoring fans. When the PCs save someone, they (the savee) could faint in disbelief. "OMG! I was not just saved by Capt. Dynamite!" graffiti around the city lauding them or simply: Capt. Dynamite rules! kind of things. Give them invitations to private parties, playboy mansions, NFL games, private screenings, that kind of stuff. Perhaps that can function as loot.

 

Now of course the debate is, by taking such a tack, are you steering them towards the spirit of being an honest-to-goodness hero or are you translating the hack and slash genre conventions into your supers game?

[Vulcan]

Re: The Spirit of Superheroing

 

Even paldins need a nice, shiny new magic sword once in a while.

 

Seriously, while always rewarding PC's just for playing to the hero genre is probably not a good idea (it can become, as was said, a translation of the hack 'n' slash genre), never rewarding your players for playing to the hero genre is... intensely frustrating.

 

In our current game (which has gotten intensely focused on the 'anti-mutant' plotline), it seems that no matter what we do, no matter how hard we try, things just keep getting worse. We just had to break into a bonafide military post to keep the bad guys from launching NUKES at the areas where the mutants have gathered to get away from the normals. So now PRIMUS is more than half convinced we're the renegades wh tried to launch the nukes... It'll take some fast talking to get us (those who survived, anyway, it was a military base )out of this one. That, and a change of heart from the GM...

[Certified]

Re: The Spirit of Superheroing

 

Before I begin let me say that I think the idea of playing up rewards such as bases, contacts and prestige may help to appeal to the loot hunting mentality. Most of my suggestions focus around the pre-game and initial stories.

 

One thing that I don't think has been mentioned yet is talking about character motivation and story telling. The Characters are not a collection of powers waiting to beat down the next challenge, they are heroes, bring this to the Players. Why are your Characters risking their lives? What has driven them to put on a mask and use whatever powers they have for good/justice/the people?

 

Scifi_Toughguy mentioned watching super hero movies. This might be a good way to start character creation. Pick up one or two movies that you feel exemplify the traits you're looking for. X-Men may be an easy one for them to identify with as the main characters are heroes of necessity. They fight verses other mutants to keep the fear of mutant kind from spreading and to keep innocent people from being hurt, they fight the government for the same reason. Their goal is civil equality something that a lot of people can resonate with.

 

That brings me to my next question. Is there something in the setting that drives them to heroic acts beyond, you have super powers so you should be a hero? What challenges do the Characters face? Look at the story you want to tell, can it take someone who has super powers but isn't necessarily a hero and drive them to take up this mantle and enter the spotlight? Maybe it's a matter of playing off one central Character for an opening story but if you know the Players will rally behind them it gives you something to jump off from.

 

Anyway, I hope this helps and good luck weening them off of ye' olde D&D.

[Kid Jurassic]

Re: The Spirit of Superheroing

 

This may depend on actual role-playing but rewards can be more than money and XP. I was playing in Proditor's game and he had our team Interviewed by Conan O'Brien after a high profile battle. We role-played out the whole interview and ended up laughing ourselves silly, but then we have a group that all love the genre.

[bubba smith]

Re: The Spirit of Superheroing

 

First thing that popped into my mind is to drop them in a setting where everyone acts just like they do. I'm not sure it would work.

 

My feelings are such that its all in the set up. As the GM you have to lay ground rules for the type of game you want to play. If they're not into the genre conventions then it may be better to play a different type of game. (still using Hero of course)

 

Games are much better when all of the parties agree on what will be fun from the outset and then work to that goal. If only 25% of the group thinks that particular style of game will be fun then the other 75% will more than likely drag the game down.

 

Something that may work is to use the existing vessels of the medium to convey your message. Grab a favorite comic book or arc and have them read that. Then you can point at that and say: This is the kind of game we should be running. You can do the same thing with Superhero movies.

 

I have a powered armor character in my group of players. We went to see Iron Man and after the movie I mentioned to the player that they could get a lot of inspiration from the film and the character.

this idea works