Adaptive Invisibility

[Vulcan]

Re: Adaptive Invisibility

 

I'd love to hear the FX behind that one, zeropoint.

[Vulcan]

Re: Adaptive Invisibility

 

Like I said' date=' I can't prepare for every unusual group sense, even in just one setting. I don't know what you mean by "meta-power", but I can assure you that mechanical legality and common sense are forefront in my mind.[/quote']

 

braincraft pretty much nailed it. It sounds like you don't want Invisibility as defined by HEROs, but total undetectability which HEROs doesn't do so well. It's like building a brick that can lift anything; sooner or later something that is just too heavy comes into play.

 

I played an invisibility-based character for quite a while. A good chunk of the fun was figuring out ways around the few people with the senses that could pick me up.

 

The long and short is, sooner or later someone will pick you up while you are invisible. Don't take it as a failure of the power, or even the concept. Take it as a challenge to be overcome.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Adaptive Invisibility

 

It sounds like you don't want Invisibility as defined by HEROs' date=' but total undetectability which HEROs doesn't do so well.[/quote']

Ahem. Mental Illusions....

[Sean Waters]

Re: Adaptive Invisibility

 

I don't have my rulebook w/ me' date=' but it gives the exact price of each of the normal senses as memory serves.[/quote']

 

Well, yes, but the stated costs do not equate with a character point build. It is a bit, unfortunately, arbitrary. Normal sight is 'costed' at 25 points, which, to my mind, means we have not made it a sense. Whoops. (5er 351)

 

Yes' date=' as I said, it makes most sense affecting powers meaningless vs the character unless an opponent had an ability specifically targeting such an unusual sense (which is highly unlikely in most circumstances). This is a pretty powerful defense for relatively few points.[/quote']

 

It does not make sense affecting powers meaningless: if you have a power that perfectly simulates normal sight and yest is unaffected by anything - darkness, flashes, walls, etc, you can still be hearing flashed. Sight is generally the most important sense in combat as the only common targeting sense, but if you actually want to cover all the bases it is going to get expensive, and someone who is unable to hear is going to be at a serious disadvantage even with vision that good.

 

Just to be clear I'm not suggesting for a moment that the ability is not very useful and indeed, quite powerful. I'm just saying that I think the power and utility is reflected in the points spent.

 

 

 

The character's meta information is plentiful and the references to the mythos around the pineal gland and Descartes are obvious; if its unclear how the sense works or what it is supposed to represent conceptually then I don't really have anything more to add to clarify it.

 

That's my point though, what we have here is an sfx without game effects. Before I'd allow an unusual sense I'd want to know what it is actually detecting. A third eye is presumably not detecting light, because if it was then you would not be able to see when there was none. If it is detecting, for example, psychic energy, then a psychic flash would blind it.

 

I don't care is the explanation of what is being detected is completely made up, I'd want to know what is being detected, some strange particle, mystical residue, an otherworldly energy, whatever, so that I could fit it in the world (or tell teh player that it doesn;t fit into the world). I would not allow sfx to dictate that a sense, in effect, could not be affected by more or less anything.

 

Now, just so I'm clear, I respect that you can do what you like with your characters and your campaign, my point is not aimed at the way you build characters, and, as I've said before, I think you are very generous to share your many ideas, what I am saying is that I think that the criteria for building senses in Hero could do with a little tightening up . Every sense, usual or otherwise should define WHAT it being detected, and what stops detection. Generally a sense should be flashable with an excess of what is detected and darknessable with an absence of it. There should always be some relatively common substances or circumstances that prevent a sense from working (and N-Ray should be a $%^&£*! adder, not a seperate detect).

[Vulcan]

Re: Adaptive Invisibility

 

Ahem. Mental Illusions....

 

Which works great on things with EGO. I think he also wants it to work on cameras and what not.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Adaptive Invisibility

 

Which works great on things with EGO. I think he also wants it to work on cameras and what not.

 

And likely on multiple targets all at once.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Adaptive Invisibility

 

It might be easier to buy multiple classes of minds (including Machine) than all the sense groups. And there's always Area of Effect (shhh, maybe even with MegaScale :-O)...anyway, not really saying I'd WANT to do it, or that it would be cheap by any means, but there IS a way in the system to be reasonably undetectable to all senses. There are still ways to beat it, of course (high Ego, Mental Defense, etc.), but it CAN work on all senses....

[Tonio]

Re: Adaptive Invisibility

 

It might be easier to buy multiple classes of minds (including Machine) than all the sense groups. And there's always Area of Effect (shhh' date=' maybe even with MegaScale :-O)...anyway, not really saying I'd WANT to do it, or that it would be cheap by any means, but there IS a way in the system to be reasonably undetectable to all senses. There are still ways to beat it, of course (high Ego, Mental Defense, etc.), but it CAN work on all senses....[/quote']

 

AE Mental Illusions has the odd effect of not working past a certain range, so instead of people up close being able to see you, people far away can.

[badger3k]

Re: Adaptive Invisibility

 

AE Mental Illusions has the odd effect of not working past a certain range' date=' so instead of people up close being able to see you, people far away can.[/quote']

 

megascale?

[Vulcan]

Re: Adaptive Invisibility

 

The other problem with AE mental illusions is that once you use it, everyone in the area knows there's a mentalist around and they go gunning for him.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Adaptive Invisibility

 

I think that we have to assume that whether you can buy 'Universal Invisibility' is a matter for the GM in a given game. If a GM wants to allow this then he or she can define the sense groups in the game, including unusual senses, and you can buy invisibility to all of them.

 

If the GM is not willing to define all the senses, or at least undertake not to introduce new ones without allowing you to 'instant spend' XP to cover them, well, you;re just not playing in a game where it can be done.

 

The system allows for absolute invisibility and it also allows for absolute senses, and which triumphs in an individual game is up to those in the game to thrash out amongst themselves.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Adaptive Invisibility

 

Doing this with transform, and iving it enough range to cover anywhere in the galaxy, works out like this:

 

Ignored by the Universe: 62 active, 41 real

Major Transform 1 point (Transform senses to not register the character, The character bringing himself to someone's attention deliberately), Inherent (+1/4), Personal Immunity (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2), Affects Desolidified Any form of Desolidification (+1/2), Indirect (Any origin, any direction; +3/4), No Normal Defense ([standard]; +1), Area Of Effect (6" Radius; +1), Continuous (+1), Transdimensional (Any Dimension; +1), MegaScale (1" = 100,000 lightyears; +4 3/4) (62 Active Points); No Range (-1/2)

 

That is suprisingly affordable, and covers not just this galaxy, but congruent realities too. Very wrong, but surprisingly affordable

[SteveZilla]

Re: Adaptive Invisibility

 

In a world where extraordinary beings with hosts of exotic senses are common, even a suite of invisibility powers can leave you vulnerable when you need to be absolutely stealthy. It would be impractical to plan for every possibility, so my goal was to come up with a power that allowed me to detect the senses currently sensing me, in order that I may adjust my invisibilities as needed.

 

Is this within the means of the detect sense, to sense the senses currently sensing me?

 

Would I be able to use it in conjunction with some sort of precognitive clairsentience with No Conscious Control, so that the power could anticipate and adapt as needed behind the scenes?

 

I would probably place the Invisibility powers to be used with this in a Cosmic VPP, possibly also with No Conscious Control and Linked.

 

Thanks.

 

For this kind of effect, I would think that AoE Mental Illusions ("You Don't Notice Me") + IPE would work better. Because it is directly affecting the mind, it doesn't matter if they have 1 or 10000 senses, and doesn't matter what sense groups they have.

 

Otherwise, IMO there is no reasonable way to be "Absolutely, Totally, Completely Undetectable". Though you could give the *appearance* of being invisible by using Iindirect (w/ IPE) on all of your attacks (and buying Fine Manipulation TK equal to your STR - w/ IPE) That way, All that you do will appear to be coming from location X, but since there is actually nothing to see there, you have effective invisibility.

[TheChainTyrant]

Re: Adaptive Invisibility

 

Doing this with transform, and iving it enough range to cover anywhere in the galaxy, works out like this:

 

Ignored by the Universe: 62 active, 41 real

Major Transform 1 point (Transform senses to not register the character, The character bringing himself to someone's attention deliberately), Inherent (+1/4), Personal Immunity (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2), Affects Desolidified Any form of Desolidification (+1/2), Indirect (Any origin, any direction; +3/4), No Normal Defense ([standard]; +1), Area Of Effect (6" Radius; +1), Continuous (+1), Transdimensional (Any Dimension; +1), MegaScale (1" = 100,000 lightyears; +4 3/4) (62 Active Points); No Range (-1/2)

 

That is suprisingly affordable, and covers not just this galaxy, but congruent realities too. Very wrong, but surprisingly affordable

 

Interesting, but isn't it lacking Invisible Power Effects (+1)?

 

Also, a few questions. It possible to buy a 1 point transform? Is this specifically allowed by the text? There has to be some defense for an NND attack; did you have any ideas as to what this would be?

 

For this kind of effect, I would think that AoE Mental Illusions ("You Don't Notice Me") + IPE would work better. Because it is directly affecting the mind, it doesn't matter if they have 1 or 10000 senses, and doesn't matter what sense groups they have.

 

Otherwise, IMO there is no reasonable way to be "Absolutely, Totally, Completely Undetectable". Though you could give the *appearance* of being invisible by using Iindirect (w/ IPE) on all of your attacks (and buying Fine Manipulation TK equal to your STR - w/ IPE) That way, All that you do will appear to be coming from location X, but since there is actually nothing to see there, you have effective invisibility.

 

I'll have to look into this more as well.

 

Notice that I've never said I wanted absolute invisibility, I just want one that's hard to crack. With my original construction, the precognitive clairsentience and VPP invisibility, a character could sense me as long as he had more unusual senses than I could block at once. A VPP with 25 points [1 targeting sense group plus 1 targeting sense (single)] could be beaten with 3 unusual senses. Since I planned to use a 40 point VPP though, you would need 6 unusual senses.....possible but unlikely.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Adaptive Invisibility

 

Interesting' date=' but isn't it lacking Invisible Power Effects (+1)?[/quote']

 

Its also lacking "Does Body" to go with the NND.

 

Also' date=' a few questions. It possible to buy a 1 point transform?[/quote']

 

Because the 5ER rules now give ways of calculating the cost of Half dice (and possibly single points of effect, IIRC), this is likely legal. Even if the book didn't do that, because Major Transform and KAs are both 15 pts per d6, and the book gives costs for 1/2 d6 and 1 pip for KA, I would think the same structure would apply to Major Transforms as well.

 

Notice that I've never said I wanted absolute invisibility' date=' I just want one that's hard to crack. With my original construction, the precognitive clairsentience and VPP invisibility, a character could sense me as long as he had more unusual senses than I could block at once.[/quote']

 

That right there means it's much more than just "tough" to crack. It is very rare in my experience for a single character to have more than one sense in the Unusual Sense Group (if any at all).

 

A VPP with 25 points [1 targeting sense group plus 1 targeting sense (single)] could be beaten with 3 unusual senses. Since I planned to use a 40 point VPP though' date=' you would need 6 unusual senses.....possible but unlikely.[/quote']

 

If "unlikely" == "almost never" then you're right.

 

I don't mean offense, but when I first read the OP, my "Munchkin Alarm" started going off. I believe the whole purpose of not allowing Invisibility to be blanket purchased for the Unusual Group (which isn't a real Group like the others are) is for Game Balance. IMO anything that strives to overcome that restriction is, by definition, unbalancing.

[braincraft]

Re: Adaptive Invisibility

 

Okay, how about this: WHY are you invisible? Start from that, and a mechanic that simulates it will be immediately obvious, if not necessarily simple or affordable.

 

Right now, you're telling us what mechanical effect you want to achieve (supremacy over the majority of competing effects in your campaign) and not giving us the necessary mechanical context (the ballpark efficacy of competing effects in your campaign).

 

Also, the fact that you're starting from the point of wanting a power that makes things really difficult on the GM but not being specific about the sort of character that justifies this power informs me that your intent was probably to make things difficult on the GM.

[badger3k]

Re: Adaptive Invisibility

 

Interesting, but isn't it lacking Invisible Power Effects (+1)?

 

Also, a few questions. It possible to buy a 1 point transform? Is this specifically allowed by the text? There has to be some defense for an NND attack; did you have any ideas as to what this would be?

 

 

 

I'll have to look into this more as well.

 

Notice that I've never said I wanted absolute invisibility, I just want one that's hard to crack. With my original construction, the precognitive clairsentience and VPP invisibility, a character could sense me as long as he had more unusual senses than I could block at once. A VPP with 25 points [1 targeting sense group plus 1 targeting sense (single)] could be beaten with 3 unusual senses. Since I planned to use a 40 point VPP though, you would need 6 unusual senses.....possible but unlikely.

 

Actually, for Transform to work it has to overcome the Target's Body and any power defense they have. A 1-point transform probably wouldn't change anything beyond a few microbes (which might not be all that bad), but anyone with power defense would see right through it. Well, the NND might take care of that, but I don't think it would take care of any Body (even Cosmetic requires 5 points per d6). edit - yeah, it would be a major transform, but it would have to be cumulative and need the "Does Body" per SteveZilla. reedit - no it doesn't. I haven't used enough Transforms to know that it is already cumulative, and it works on CP not Body, so there would be no need for that advantage either. Glad I looked it up - it's been too long playing with the system that I got rusty. So it probably could work as written. (no line-out font? Ding - wanted to use that)

 

You might as well do an ExDim movement "To world where nothing can detect me unless I want it to" (kinda like a universe destroying spell - movement to a universe where everything is destroyed). The fun you can have with that power....

 

Its a bit clunky, but you can have an invisibility MP, with each slot covering normal senses and one unusual one, with the limitation "must switch based on Precog roll" or something similar.

 

A quick sample I worked up:

Invisibility: Multipower, 50-point reserve, (50 Active Points); No Conscious Control (Only Effects cannot be controlled; Switch based on Precognition Roll; -1) Real Cost: 25

 

1u) Invisibility to Sight, Smell/Taste and Hearing Groups , No Fringe (40 Active Points) Real Cost 4

 

2u) Invisibility to Sight, Hearing, Smell/Taste and Mental Groups , No Fringe (45 Active Points) Real Cost 4

 

3u) Invisibility to Sight, Hearing, Smell/Taste and Radio Groups , No Fringe (45 Active Points) Real Cost 4

 

4u) Invisibility to Sight, Hearing, Smell/Taste and Mystic Groups , No Fringe (45 Active Points) Real Cost 4

 

5u) Invisibility to Sight, Hearing and Smell/Taste Groups and Detect , No Fringe (43 Active Points) Real Cost 4

 

6u) Invisibility to Sight, Hearing and Smell/Taste Groups and Radar , No Fringe (45 Active Points) Real Cost 4

 

Total Real Cost: 49 points

 

Of course, you can narrow that down or expand it as you desire.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Adaptive Invisibility

 

Not that I'm in favour of the Transform solution, but 5e Transform is Cumulative by default. 1 point Transform will eventually accumulate to double the target's BOD, transforming him, unless they have power defense (or the NND defense in this case) to prevent it.

 

I also agree with those posters noting that this seems like a mechanical construct which has no SFX to go with it.

 

Here's a "completely undetectable" approach:

 

Don't build a character. Just sit at the gaming table and pass cryptic notes to the GM at irregular intervals. Since you don't actually have a character, he's impossible to detect. Unless, I suppose, someone builds an unusual Sense with "Transdimensional - Beyond the Fourth Wall" to see what's going on in our world that makes you undetectable.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Adaptive Invisibility

 

Here's a "completely undetectable" approach:

 

Don't build a character. Just sit at the gaming table and pass cryptic notes to the GM at irregular intervals. Since you don't actually have a character, he's impossible to detect. Unless, I suppose, someone builds an unusual Sense with "Transdimensional - Beyond the Fourth Wall" to see what's going on in our world that makes you undetectable.

 

I'd rep you for this if I could.

[Vulcan]

Re: Adaptive Invisibility

 

Notice that I've never said I wanted absolute invisibility' date=' I just want one that's hard to crack. With my original construction, the precognitive clairsentience and VPP invisibility, a character could sense me as long as he had more unusual senses than I could block at once. A VPP with 25 points [1 targeting sense group plus 1 targeting sense (single)'] could be beaten with 3 unusual senses. Since I planned to use a 40 point VPP though, you would need 6 unusual senses.....possible but unlikely.

 

That's a bit more than hard to crack. Not even unlikely. More like impossible, for a realistic point level for your opponents. If they've put that many points into exotic targeting senses, they have no offensive or defensive capability worth speaking of. They are going to go down hard when your teammates come calling.

 

You do have teammates, don't you? Well, this is what they are there for. Distractions.

 

Trust me. Take Invisible to sight, sound, & mental and you've got 95%+ of the opposition covered just fine. And buy some FF/Armor to cover the lumps you'll take when Wolverine comes to call. It's more balanced, and a heck of a lot cheaper.

[GMumford]

Re: Adaptive Invisibility

 

Clearly what's needed is a level of Invisibility that works like Desolid; invisible to all but a specific, player defined, sense group.

Ghosts, elementals emersed in their element, and astral forms should be invisible to nearly all sense groups, except Detect Spirit, Mind Scan, ect...

[Vulcan]

Re: Adaptive Invisibility

 

I think the intent of the power is to cover all of those too...

[GMumford]

Re: Adaptive Invisibility

 

As TheChainTyrant points out, his build would only stop the first 2 unusual sense groups directed at his character. With a level of Invisibility mechanically working like Desolid he could define the sense that always detects him as all unusual sense groups after the first two currently directed in his character's direction.

If I'm a ghost, I should be invisible to all sense groups except those specificly designed to detect ghosts. If I'm astrally projecting myself, my astral form should be invisible to anything except Mind Scan. If I can turn into water and am emersed in larger body of water, I should be invisible to anything except a sense specifically designed to tell the difference between me and the surrounding water.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Adaptive Invisibility

 

If I'm a ghost' date=' I should be invisible to all sense groups except those specificly designed to detect ghosts. If I'm astrally projecting myself, my astral form should be invisible to anything except Mind Scan. If I can turn into water and am emersed in larger body of water, I should be invisible to anything except a sense specifically designed to tell the difference between me and the surrounding water.[/quote']

 

Don't forget Danger Sense. Any of those methods above would IMO be detected by Spider Man, were he in danger from them.

 

Or Combat Sense.