New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

[sindyr]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

Cosmic defenses seem much less expensive. 1 point of Cosmic PD will allow me to ignore all "under-Cosmic" attacks' date=' but 1d6 Cosmic EB won't punch through a Normal bank vault.[/quote']

 

If we have a buy-in cost, then 1 point of Cosmic PD actually costs 100 for the Cosmic Order "buy-in" plus PD's cost * (Cosmic Advantage).

 

However, possibly the Cosmic Advantage can only be bought for Powers, not characteristics. I am not saying definitely, but possibly.

 

And truthfully, a 1d6 Cosmic EB is still pretty weak - it ignores all DEF, and will eventually deplete the Body of the Vault, but it's going to take time.

 

I suspect the actual result is that the three tiers cannot successfully interact. If I bring my Mega character into a Cosmic campaign, he can't affect any meaningful (ie Cosmic) opponents, and can't defend himself against their attacks. All he can hope to do is hide long enough to go home. That's a big difference from the comics I remember where those "ordinary" superheroes had a major impact on Cosmic events. More to the point, it seems to serve only to set the scale of the game and everyone in it - if there are Cosmic characters, then any character without Cosmic is pretty much helpless before them.

 

Which seems to concur with my point, above. The possibility that Sgt. Grit can interact meaningfully with Mega characters is dismissed out of hand.

 

It probably needs some tweaking. One vision I am trying to achieve is the heroes face off against a baddie with a cosmic armor, so they instead go after an in that doesn't have cosmic protection, such as Mind Control. In other words, even Cosmic beings have some non Cosmic attributes, which can be exploited.

 

That's the idea anyways.

 

Advantage for Mega Power? How about +1.75? That's an Attack vs Limited defenses, reasonably common subset of normal defenses (Mega would be reasonably common in a campaign where Mega powers are permitted, I assume) that does BOD. This seems to set a reasonable benchmark. Maybe call it +2 in the interests of simplicity, and factoring in the fact it just makes you Mega.

 

I don't think +1.75 is going to work, especially on top of the 50 point buyin. I was thinking more like 1/4 to 1/2 for mega, and 1/2 to 1 for Cosmic. WITH the aforementioned buyin needed too, to keep it out of the hands of low level characters.

[Sean Waters]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

I'd really like to put an end to this one.

 

Yes and No, God not being subject to human concepts of limits, logic or causality can create create a rock that he can simultaneously lift and not lift.

 

 

Sorry for the hijack the question bugs me.

 

You don't even need to go there - ever read 'The Fish Who Could Wish'? Saddest story ever.

 

A being of infinite power can use that power to limit his own power. He may no longer be a being of infinite power afterwards though...if God DID create a rock that even he could not lift, it wouldn't be by creating a rock that was really heavy, it would be by limiting his rock lifting ability. Afterwards he could put it back to what it was before though, unless he had somehow used his infinite power to make his limited rock lifting ability irrovocable. Then he's no longer a being of infinite power...no coming back from that one.

[ghost-angel]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

It probably needs some tweaking. One vision I am trying to achieve is the heroes face off against a baddie with a cosmic armor, so they instead go after an in that doesn't have cosmic protection, such as Mind Control. In other words, even Cosmic beings have some non Cosmic attributes, which can be exploited.

 

That's the idea anyways.

 

Just give the NPC more defenses than the PCs could possibly hope to overcome.

 

That's simple.

[Sean Waters]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

Just give the NPC more defenses than the PCs could possibly hope to overcome.

 

That's simple.

 

I agree entirely, which is why I've never seen the need for absolutes or even 'power levels' which are orders of magnitude apart. Assuming you (as GM) know the powers of the PCs, you can always design a villain who is functionally invulnerable to them in one or more areas.

 

In fact, if it were not for killing attacks this sort of problem would probably never arise. Of course there are those who see that as a feature of the system.

[ghost-angel]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

feature[/i] of the system.

 

This is why I like the x3 Multiple, predictable, easy, usable.

[Sean Waters]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

Absolutes are a matter of perception. I've run games where I've TOLD players that their characters are the most powerful, the most invulnerable...whatever. Lies, all lies BUT they acted on them and acted as if they were the most powerful or invulnerable, and it has worked out really well. It is astonishing what you can do if you don't know that you can't.

[jtelson]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

You don't even need to go there - ever read 'The Fish Who Could Wish'? Saddest story ever.

 

A being of infinite power can use that power to limit his own power. He may no longer be a being of infinite power afterwards though...if God DID create a rock that even he could not lift, it wouldn't be by creating a rock that was really heavy, it would be by limiting his rock lifting ability. Afterwards he could put it back to what it was before though, unless he had somehow used his infinite power to make his limited rock lifting ability irrovocable. Then he's no longer a being of infinite power...no coming back from that one.

 

I'm having a difficult time imagining my Jesuit teacher going with the God gives up his omnipotence version...

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

If we have a buy-in cost, then 1 point of Cosmic PD actually costs 100 for the Cosmic Order "buy-in" plus PD's cost * (Cosmic Advantage).

 

However, possibly the Cosmic Advantage can only be bought for Powers, not characteristics. I am not saying definitely, but possibly.

 

A 1 point PD force wall is the same cost. And characteristics with advantages or limitations ARE powers.

 

And truthfully' date=' a 1d6 Cosmic EB is still pretty weak - it ignores all DEF, and will eventually deplete the Body of the Vault, but it's going to take time.[/quote']

 

Well, I can Rapid Attack it multiple times to hit the vault multiple times, and Haymaker it, so that will bump up the costs.

 

It probably needs some tweaking. One vision I am trying to achieve is the heroes face off against a baddie with a cosmic armor' date=' so they instead go after an in that doesn't have cosmic protection, such as Mind Control. In other words, even Cosmic beings have some non Cosmic attributes, which can be exploited.[/quote']

 

Just give the NPC more defenses than the PCs could possibly hope to overcome.

 

That's simple.

 

GA has been rep'd.

 

I don't think +1.75 is going to work' date=' especially on top of the 50 point buyin. I was thinking more like 1/4 to 1/2 for mega, and 1/2 to 1 for Cosmic. WITH the aforementioned buyin needed too, to keep it out of the hands of low level characters.[/quote']

 

So why should I ever pay for an NND that Does BOD (+2) attack if I can pay +1/4 to +1 for an NND that does BOD with the defense being Cosmic Defenses? Toi repeat, why don't you familiarize yourself with the costs of the abilities your Cosmic abilities will supersede before trying to price your cosmic abilities?

[sindyr]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

A 1 point PD force wall is the same cost. And characteristics with advantages or limitations ARE powers.

 

OK then, leave characteristics in.

 

 

Well, I can Rapid Attack it multiple times to hit the vault multiple times, and Haymaker it, so that will bump up the costs.

 

OK, is this good or bad or neither?

 

So why should I ever pay for an NND that Does BOD (+2) attack if I can pay +1/4 to +1 for an NND that does BOD with the defense being Cosmic Defenses?

 

This is *just* dense enough that I cannot quite parse this: what? What is your question here?

 

Toi repeat, why don't you familiarize yourself with the costs of the abilities your Cosmic abilities will supersede before trying to price your cosmic abilities?

 

I plan on operating on all fronts more or less simultaneously.

 

My next plan, apart from continuing to participate on these threads, is to read through the core book, and then try to recreate the character of myself and my players from our previous games in Torg, in Hero System.

 

I will post each attempt in its own thread, but I better read the corebook cover to cover before starting that.

 

Should be fun.

[ghost-angel]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

This is *just* dense enough that I cannot quite parse this: what? What is your question here?

 

He's asking why he would use the Systems idea of the same capability when your proposed version costs much less.

 

Ultimately what you are doing is proposing a set of rules without understanding what is already in the system as written.

 

While we here on the boards welcome new rules and new ideas and new takes on old ideas - be prepared to have anything you propose looked at extremely closely and compared to how one could accomplish the proposition already within the system.

 

When we say Hero can Do Anything - we pretty much mean just that. What we don't mean is "Hero can do anything easily, cheaply or in a game friendly manner"

[Sean Waters]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

I'm having a difficult time imagining my Jesuit teacher going with the God gives up his omnipotence version...

 

There was this guy called Jesus....

 

The 'unliftable rock ' though is a way of phrasing the question 'CAN a being who can do anything decide to permanently limit their ability to do anything?'. The logical answer is 'yes' - at the time of asking they can do anything - afterwards, however, they are no longer a being that can do anything.

 

Where your Jesuit teacher might well take you up (and administer a beating) is that God would never do such a thing. Thing about Jesus is, as part of the trinity, whilst his God-like power was limited as a mortal either by an exercise of will or something else ineffable, there is no indication that the loss of ability was ever meant to be permanent AND not all of God was so liimited at the same time. Presumably after ascension he was back to all powerful again and, in some ways, had never been anything but.

 

So not really that much like the rest of us mortals then. Of course, suggesting that would get you a proper Jesuit beating

 

If you really want to go for black and blue, suggest that an all powerful being who will not excercie their power (for instance to make themselves less than all powerful) is limited in fact by their own reluctance to excercise their power and therefore not all powerful.

[jtelson]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

So not really that much like the rest of us mortals then. Of course' date=' suggesting that would get you a proper Jesuit beating [/quote']

 

Well it's been about 25 years since I had to deal w/ Jesuits and just asking the rock question in the first place had unpleasant results; on the other hand those guys were pretty old so I should be able to take them......yeah probably not.

[Sean Waters]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

Well it's been about 25 years since I had to deal w/ Jesuits and just asking the rock question in the first place had unpleasant results; on the other hand those guys were pretty old so I should be able to take them......yeah probably not.

 

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

This is *just* dense enough that I cannot quite parse this: what? What is your question here?

 

GA's covered it nicely, but to add some more detail...

 

Your 1d6 MegaAttack ignores all non-Mega defenses, and acts normally against MegaDefenses.

 

The Hero system has a No Normal Defense (NND) attack, which most defenses are ignored, but some specific circumstance blocks entirely. This is a +1 Advantage. I could, given the setting you posit, decide that the Defense in this case is "Mega-Defenses". My attack goes right through all other defenses, and is stopped cold by mega-defenses (not reduced by mega-defenses, but stopped entirely).

 

NND attacks do not do Body damage. However, a further +1 advantage allows them to do Body damage.

 

So my 1d6 NND, Does BOD, stopped by any MegaDefense power costs a +2 advantage. Why should a 1d6 MegaBlast, which is reduced by MegaDefenses and cuts right through everything else, be less expensive? If anything, it should be MORE expensive since it could still damage a MegaDefended target. This would be an Attack versus Limited Defenses, a +1 1/2 (+1 more to do Body).

 

If Mega advantage costs less, why would anyone continue to use the current mechanics in the system? I think you need to learn how Hero does things before you try to import other concepts if you want to maintain any game balance.

[Jagged]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

Absolutes are a matter of perception.

 

Agreed.

 

I am also of the opinion that if you want "absolutes" in your campaign then go ahead and have them, just don't bother with rules for them, they are "absolutes" after all.

 

The other thing to say is that if you do have them then you need to be careful how you introduce them. Players of the Hero System will be used to the idea that there are no absolutes and if they can just somehow build up a big enough move-through then they will break down that unbreakable object.

 

For example when I introduced the heroes to a force wall I decided was totally indestructable I introduced them to the idea by smashing a big nasty baddie against it. It acted as a nice way to set up the story and saved the players from wasting time attempting the impossible with dice

[caris]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

Ok, someone else may have said what I’m about to say, but this is the best jumping in point that I’ve seen.

 

Defining power levels ("cosmic" vs. "superhero") is partly a campaign issue to reflect the way "absolutes" seem to work in source. The Beyonder can create heat hot enough to burn the Human Torch' date=' but [i']in the typical session[/i] fire won't touch him. He never has to cross his fingers and hope the GM doesn't roll a 3, or hope that the GM didn't buy Affects Desolid, or hope that there's not some other mechanical gremlin hiding out somewhere waiting to bite him.[/i]

 

Chris, what I’m having trouble seeing is how the rules as written for at least some of things you are talking about don’t do exactly what you are seeming to describe.

 

Let us say that you Buy Invulnerability “Normal Superheroic” vs. Fire, aren’t you just effectively hoping that the GM doesn’t buy “Cosmic Superheroic” for the NPC’s Fire attack? How is that any different than hoping that the GM hasn’t slapped Affects Desolid?

 

I’m not seeing a functional difference. How is having a power that is called “Invulnerability” that can be exceeded in rare certain circumstances any different that buying limited Desolid or buying a butt load of Defenses in the current rules?

 

Ultimately, for any form of absolute to work for a player, they have to trust that the GM is going to let it actually be an absolute. The existence of absolutes has to be a part of the common ground rules of the play group. Allowing a player to buy LS: Immunity – Small Pox (which sort of implies an absolute) means that the GM has implicitly or explicitly agreed that any (or at least most) attack power with a “Small Pox” SFX, will not work against that character and will build them appropriately. If a GM allows a player to buy Immunity to Electricity (Desolid only vs. Electricity) they are once again agreeing to build Electrical attacks in such a way that the character is Immune to Electrical Attacks. There isn’t a way to write rules that prevent people from acting like jackasses. The GM at the very least can always House Rule an exception.

[Sean Waters]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

As Caris says, there has to be a degree of trust between the players and GM - if you buy a character who is supposed to be invulnerable to fire and you have spent a lot of points to reflect this you have to trust that the GM won't just come along and burn your character with a fire attack even they can't withstand*. Nothing stopping the GM coming along and hitting you with a cold blast, of course...

 

Equally the players have to be able to trust that if the GM has put up a defence that they cannot breach then there are very good reasons they should not breach it, or that there is some cunning way to do so without simply applying sufficient force - like Jagged's uber force wall.

 

I tend to feel that players don't NEED absolutes if they can trust the GM and GMs can use them as they will because they, in efffect, have an infinite number of creation points anyway BUT great power comes with great responsibility.

 

In any event there are a lot of 'absolutes' that will probably have limited game impact. A character invuulnerable to fire is unlikely to ba attacked by fire once they have any kind of reputation, unless there are no alternatives, and there are plenty of other ways to damage them. I still think that absolutes, even in limtied form, are unnecessary, but I could live with them if I had to.

 

The problem arises more when you have someone who wants a more absolute absolute. They want to be immune to all damage effects. Well, OK if that is pretty much all they can do, but if they are also a superstrong flier, well, it seems to me that much of what would make the character challenging is taken away.

 

Absolute attack powers are less of a problem to my mind, because there is some cost scaling 'Hit anything' can be accomplished anyway by sufficient spend on accurate AoE or CSLs. Damage anything can be done more or less with an NND Does Body.

 

The trouble is that people won't let it lie there. They will want one hit kills against everything. I mean, Hero can do that: UAA EDM to somewhere that nothing can live - but no one in their right mind allows that sort of thing.

 

I just keep coming back to this: where is the NEED? I can see the WANT. That's not the same thing at all.

 

 

 

 

* At least not without very good reason