Transform: Class of mind

[Gemphyre]

A thought occurred to me yesterday, and I cannot quite see the answer.

 

"Class of Mind" is an important consideration in Mentalist attacks, since if the person has the "wrong" class of mind, they effectively become immune to many mental powers. It is known that a character can have multiple classes of minds, such as a cyborg having both Human and Machine Classes of Mind, and thus being vulnerable to both Human and Machine based Ego Power attacks, or lycantropes being affected by Animal and Human Ego Powers. This is usually considered to be an innate feature of the target, and this not usually detailed in the writeup since it usually obvious.

 

What I was wondering is how would you build a power that

1) change a target's Class of Mind from one type to another

2) added a Class of Mind to the Target

 

In these, no powers, stats, or thought processes would actually be changed, and there would be no outward sign that anything happened. The person would just be vulnerable to abilities that targeted the new Class of Mind.

 

What I can figure is that it would be a Major Transform, add/change class of mind, set effect, heals back the sooner of normally or within a week.

 

The question is, how many dice should the transform be? I can see Mental Defense also being an added limitation since this is a mind attack. How would you build and define this type of power.

 

This could also make an interesting plot hook, especially in a campaign that includes IHA or other mutant haters/hunters. (Capt. Stupendous attacks CyberTech, who can control machines with his mind, and anticipates an easy fight against this techno-geek. However, this time, CT's powers affect him, and there is no special or unusual equipment in site, and CT's looks as surprised as Capt. is at the first attack.)

 

Gemphyre

[Metaphysician]

Re: Transform: Class of mind

 

I disagree. It should be a Minor Transform. The change is significant and meaningful, but not automatically crippling. Ergo, Minor Transform.

 

I'm kinda baffled as to the SFX, though.

[Gemphyre]

Re: Transform: Class of mind

 

I disagree. It should be a Minor Transform. The change is significant and meaningful, but not automatically crippling. Ergo, Minor Transform.

 

I'm kinda baffled as to the SFX, though.

 

 

Your right, it should be a Minor Transform. I had the correct point cost in my head (10 cp/1D6), but typed the wrong name.

 

As to the "special effect", I did not explain that so your confusion makes sense. What I was think of is a type of psionic surgery, which is why it would be a Transform as opposed to something else. The exact "method" I had not figured out. Effectively, it would either change the Class of Mind of the target, or add a Class of Mind, both temporarily. The exact details besides the basic construction I had not worked out since that would depend on what type of character it was attached to. It is unlikely that it would even be obvious to the "naked eye", even if it was visible to Mental Awareness. (I know, add Invisible Power effects at the base level since one type of unusual sense could still see it.)

 

Gemphyre

[yamamura]

Re: Transform: Class of mind

 

I can see some sort of a beastmaster with the ability to revert a human mind to a devolved state and thus able to control that person as if he was an animal. In this case the character's INT and EGO scores may also change in which case a major transform might be appropriate.

 

On another note though a GM may rule that a drain that takes a person to a lower EGO and INT with the special effect of reverting a character to a devolved state opens that character up to being controlled ala Animal Class instead of human.

[Gemphyre]

Re: Transform: Class of mind

 

I can see some sort of a beastmaster with the ability to revert a human mind to a devolved state and thus able to control that person as if he was an animal. In this case the character's INT and EGO scores may also change in which case a major transform might be appropriate.

 

On another note though a GM may rule that a drain that takes a person to a lower EGO and INT with the special effect of reverting a character to a devolved state opens that character up to being controlled ala Animal Class instead of human.

 

The thing is, the power is not meant to reduce any of the target's stats, or change any of their powers. That is why I made that statement in the first place. It just adds to or changes the class of mind of the target.

 

As a scenario possibility, this could be someone that does not know that they are a mutant and/or a psi, and suddenly he or she starts to get attacked by IHA mutant hunters and/or PSI trackers and "acquisition specialists". This results in either a hero stumbling across the attack on patrol, or the person running into their HQ begging for help.

 

Gemphyre

[Comic]

Re: Transform: Class of mind

 

I'd have to disagree on some of the premises:

 

Chiefly, 1) that you can change the class of mind -- eliminating exposure to the original mind's class attacks -- and retain the 'person';

 

2) that you're picking the right power, when 'Mental Defense' UAO or UBO may be more appropriate;

 

3) that you're not seeking a game-bending effect based on mechanics instead of sense.

 

If you have a transformation that happens to alter a person's class of mind totally (clearly a standard comic book superpower of good standing and long tradition, which can make dramatic and convention sense within genre), it will as a side effect prevent mental contacts restricted to those original classes of mind (if the GM chooses), but it will also transform the target in other profound ways.

 

Machine minds lose emotion, non-linear thinking, instinct, intuition, free will outside of programming, adaptability and so on to greater or lesser degrees depending on genre and setting.

 

Animal minds lose logic, linear thinking, focus, attention span, literacy, free will outside of impulses and drives, and so on, to a greater or lesser degree, likewise.

 

If you're now a toaster or a trout, mentally, then your behavior ought profoundly change in a way that is pretty major, I believe.

 

If it doesn't change in a major way, how does that reflect that you're in a new class?

 

I played a fellow who turned into elemental air not long ago. In elemental form, he was by all measures insane to human ways of thinking, consistent with his cyclonic, unstable gaseous composition. In human form, he was relatively sane, though he pined for the 'higher' mental abilities of his elemental identity, much as a man who could turn into a dog might want to regain the ability to read and do math as a human.

[Gemphyre]

Re: Transform: Class of mind

 

I'd have to disagree on some of the premises:

 

Chiefly, 1) that you can change the class of mind -- eliminating exposure to the original mind's class attacks -- and retain the 'person';

 

2) that you're picking the right power, when 'Mental Defense' UAO or UBO may be more appropriate;

 

3) that you're not seeking a game-bending effect based on mechanics instead of sense.

 

If you have a transformation that happens to alter a person's class of mind totally (clearly a standard comic book superpower of good standing and long tradition, which can make dramatic and convention sense within genre), it will as a side effect prevent mental contacts restricted to those original classes of mind (if the GM chooses), but it will also transform the target in other profound ways.

 

Machine minds lose emotion, non-linear thinking, instinct, intuition, free will outside of programming, adaptability and so on to greater or lesser degrees depending on genre and setting.

 

Animal minds lose logic, linear thinking, focus, attention span, literacy, free will outside of impulses and drives, and so on, to a greater or lesser degree, likewise.

 

If you're now a toaster or a trout, mentally, then your behavior ought profoundly change in a way that is pretty major, I believe.

 

If it doesn't change in a major way, how does that reflect that you're in a new class?

 

I played a fellow who turned into elemental air not long ago. In elemental form, he was by all measures insane to human ways of thinking, consistent with his cyclonic, unstable gaseous composition. In human form, he was relatively sane, though he pined for the 'higher' mental abilities of his elemental identity, much as a man who could turn into a dog might want to regain the ability to read and do math as a human.

 

 

I think that you have the idea backwards. The idea is not to make the person unaffected by Mental Powers which target a class of mind, but to make them vulnerable. That is what I was looking at ADDING a class of mind as a possibility rather than exclusively changing it.

 

Also, this is a supers universe. There are AIs with completely human emotions and outlooks, cyborgs with partial and total integration of their brain and circuitry, gene-gineered hyper-intelligent animals (Dr. Silverback), and others. A demon/human integration can result in an Alien/Human dual class of mind, but you would not be able to tell the difference. There are also shapeshifters who turn into animals, but retain their human intelligence and knowledge (Mirage, IIRC).

 

Given that I am not looking to change the target's powers or defenses, Mental Defense with UAO or UBO is NOT appropriate since that not only does not represent the effect properly, it changes the targets powers and defenses. After all, it would make the target HARDER to attack with the follow-up attacks, which is not the goal.

 

One of the possibilities I am thinking of here is a plot hook to get the group involved with both PSI and IHA. The power does not have any visible effects on normal senses, and is temproary. Mental Awareness, however, can see it. The character is a mutant, and does not know it. He changes the class of minds of those around him without realizing it, especially when stressed. However, since nobody, including himself, can see it, and there is no personality change, he does not know this. However, IHA picks him up on a mutant sensor, and PSI through one of their trackers. IHA wants to kill him, and PSI want to recruit him. He does not know WHAT is going on, and wants everyone to leave him alone.

 

Gemphyre

[Shaft]

Re: Transform: Class of mind

 

At the risk of shooting down the idea, it's probably cheaper to pay the 10 extra points for the expanded class of minds and define the special effect as an ability to change the characteristics of the target mind rather than buy the transform power and make two attack rolls (one for the transform, the other for the mind control).

[Gemphyre]

Re: Transform: Class of mind

 

At the risk of shooting down the idea' date=' it's probably cheaper to pay the 10 extra points for the expanded class of minds and define the special effect as an ability to change the characteristics of the target mind rather than buy the transform power and make two attack rolls (one for the transform, the other for the mind control).[/quote']

 

What mind control? I never mentioned that, mostly because it is not part of the concept. And such a power would not have any effect on OTHER people's mental attacks on the target.

 

I used HD, and this is close to what I had in mind.

 

Minor Transform 5d6 (Add 1 Class of Mind to target (Default: Human, to be chosen at time of purchase), Normal healing, or 1 week, which ever comes first), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), BOECV (Mental Defense applies; +1), Target Chooses Defense (-1/4) (112 Active Points); No Conscious Control (-2), All Or Nothing (-1/2), Limited Power: Power Defense and Mental Defense add to resist effects (-1/2)

 

For some reason, you keep thinking that there is more to this than JUST changing or adding a Class of Mind to the target. There isn't.

 

Gemphyre

[braincraft]

Re: Transform: Class of mind

 

I'd treat it as a Major Transform. Think of Mental Powers as being similar to NNDs or AVLDs, and the power you propose is essentially removing immunities to certain classes of power.

[Comic]

Re: Transform: Class of mind

 

I'm perfectly okay with the concept of adding a class of mind to someone. This too is a classic trope.

 

Someone's mind is too tough or alien to crack? Meld it with a susceptible mind, and have at.

 

This was used to defeat Charles Xavier, by grafting him to Caliban, once. It's how the Borg make drones. It's a darn good idea, in genre.

 

And it's usually a Major Transform in my opinion, for all the reasons given above for making someone something other than they are. They'll still have to accommodate the new mentality by becoming something different than they are, which could be pretty Major. But I do see some argument for this being a Minor Transform, for those who are already pretty nearly like that other class of minds. For Hulk, a Beast mind transformation isn't such a stretch. For Reed Richards, a machine mind isn't such a leap.

 

(See what I did there.. stretch for Hulk, leap for Reed Richards. It's a literary device.)

[Nerdnumber1]

Re: Transform: Class of mind

 

I agree with major transform for actually changing class of mind. It would essentially make an allied character immune to any mentalist that didn't spend points on expanded classes of minds. Even then it would be pretty over-powered (I pay for a 1 pip major transform with a bunch of limitations and flick it on before attacking PSI).

 

Adding classes of minds is a little less clear. Game effectiveness would depend on a) ammount of mental attacks in your group and number of mind classes you effect, the diversity of mind that you fight, etc. The only upper limit (disreguarding parties with multiple, similar mentalists) would be the points needed to expand your powers to effect the necesary mental classes.

[SSgt Baloo]

Re: Transform: Class of mind

 

I'd think of it more along the lines of "changing the target's OS". He still thinks and acts the same, but the way his brain processes the information is different.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Transform: Class of mind

 

I'd treat it as a Major Transform. Think of Mental Powers as being similar to NNDs or AVLDs' date=' and the power you propose is essentially removing immunities to certain classes of power.[/quote']

 

I agree. From a balance standpoint, it needs to be a Major transform because of this, unless there's no way for the character or one of his steady teammates to take advantage of it.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Transform: Class of mind

 

I'd treat it as a Major Transform. Think of Mental Powers as being similar to NNDs or AVLDs' date=' and the power you propose is essentially removing immunities to certain classes of power.[/quote']

 

Yeah, except:

 

-The weakness only applies at all in fairly limited circumstances, against already exotic powers

 

-It doesn't actually make you any easier to effect, in terms of ECV, Ego, and Mental Defense, it merely lets some abilities you'd otherwise bounce have a chance to work

 

Zapping someone with this power could nonetheless leave them living out there entire life without any discernable change. It takes using exotic powers for it to have any effect at all.

 

Thus, Minor Transform. Major Transform gets *waaay* overused; it really should only apply to transformations as critically life changing as the lose of sight, or the ability to walk, at a minimum.

[Shaft]

Re: Transform: Class of mind

 

Adding an additional class of Mind is effectively adding a Physical Limitation to the character. Is it enough of one to justify the requirement that it be a Major Transform? I guess that is the GM's call...

[Matt the Bruins]

Re: Transform: Class of mind

 

I think the problem is that although the game effects of "class of mind" are fairly low key, what it actually indicates is the basic essence of how a character's mind works, and is pretty vital to his or her self. I don't think it's philosophically fair game to rewire that and claim that everything still works exactly the same except now people with Telepathy vs. Machines can tune in to the character's thoughts.

[SSgt Baloo]

Re: Transform: Class of mind

 

I think the problem is that although the game effects of "class of mind" are fairly low key' date=' what it actually indicates is the basic essence of how a character's mind works, and is pretty vital to his or her self. I don't think it's philosophically fair game to rewire that and claim that everything still works exactly the same except now people with Telepathy vs. Machines can tune in to the character's thoughts.[/quote']

 

How about if you transform him into a machine? Sounds like a major transform now, doesn't it?

 

ETA: Of course, you might be shooting a nanobot at the target which taps into his biological brain, allowing your off-site computer with a mind-link (SFX, not necessarily the power) to analyze and influence his thoughts?

 

I can see it, but no way is this anything less than a major xform.

[Matt the Bruins]

Re: Transform: Class of mind

 

Oh, I'm arguing that is should be a Major Transform, and involve some pretty fundamental changes to the character's mental workings in addition to opening up a vulnerability to mental powers bought a certain way. The Works Against EGO, Not BODY advantage also strikes me as appropriate

[Comic]

Re: Transform: Class of mind

 

Does the transform provide a balancing minor benefit?

 

Does the machine mind give innate Lightning Calculator, Eidetic Memory, Mechanics, or the like?

 

Does the beast mind give extra CON, only to resist being Stunned?

 

Does the alien mind give Universal Translator?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Transform: Class of mind

 

Does the transform provide a balancing minor benefit?

 

Does the machine mind give innate Lightning Calculator, Eidetic Memory, Mechanics, or the like?

 

Does the beast mind give extra CON, only to resist being Stunned?

 

Does the alien mind give Universal Translator?

 

How about "invulnerability to most mental powers"? Note that my dislike of classes of mind shows through here...

[Gemphyre]

Re: Transform: Class of mind

 

Does the transform provide a balancing minor benefit?

 

Not really.

 

Does the machine mind give innate Lightning Calculator, Eidetic Memory, Mechanics, or the like?

No.

 

Does the beast mind give extra CON, only to resist being Stunned?

No.

 

Does the alien mind give Universal Translator?

No.

 

These answers are based on my concept of the power.

 

Gemphyre