fantasy hero archtypes

[Lucius]

Re: fantasy hero archtypes

 

 

 

The palindromedary counters that perhaps the comment won't stand at all, since Kushiel's Dart could be considered - broadly - as

 

 

pseudo-medieval European based fantasy.

 

 

and is not merely good but is among the very best, and the Casselines are most definitely both martial artists and monks. And when are we going to pick another archetypal character to dissect?

 

Probably never, unless someone invites it specifically.

 

Looking back, I think I have an idea what the original poster meant by "archetype."

 

So maybe for once I can actually answer the question asked, if I think about it a while....

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Isn't a palindromedary tagline superfluous here?

[Lucius]

Re: fantasy hero archtypes

 

then the ranger would be a fantasy campaigns ninja equivelent

 

 

Actually, the fantasy equivalent of a ninja would probably be an assassin. Or just a ninja, if the campaign allows ninja.

 

By the way - how would you explain ninja to someone who had never heard of them?

 

I think I see what you're looking for. When you say "ninja" you have an immediate impression of what the character should be able to DO. Just as, in superheroics, if I say "Brick" or "Energy Projector" you have at least a vague idea what kind of capabilities the character has.

 

 

You asked about the difference between a ranger and a paladin. As it happens, I've written something explaining paladins already once before, and a few words on rangers too.

 

 

Rangers first (This was specifically for Hero) :

 

PS: Ranger

 

Anyone with this skill should also have Survival and knowledge of at least one wilderness area or terrain type, and probably Tracking. PS: Ranger is often a complementary skill for outdoor skills. What a ranger can do depends to some extent on how the Game Operations Director defines “Ranger” for a given game, but whether they guard the king’s deer from poachers, guide pilgrims across deserts, or hunt Orcs wherever they are found, any ranger will know much about the wild and things the live and move there. Identifying animals and plants will often be automatic (no roll) if they are native to a place the ranger knows. A ranger can predict weather, up to 48 hrs in advance on a good roll. Rangers usually know a lot about the people and creatures they meet in their chosen wilderness, whether it’s the Goblins who come raiding from yonder mountain or the itinerant smith making the rounds of the local villages. Although PS: Ranger is no substitute for Navigation, a ranger has a good memory for landmarks and is seldom confused as to direction.

 

Examples of PS: Ranger in Use

 

Our Hero falls over, left leg gone numb. Although no wound is visible, the healer finds and removes a flint arrowhead that only becomes visible when withdrawn a handspan from the ranger’s body. Clearly, he is a victim of Elf Stroke. “I thought you said the Elves were friendly?” After making a PS: Ranger roll, Our Hero states “That’s shaped like a Troll arrowhead. Either an Elf used a Troll arrow, or a Troll has learned an Elvin spell.”

 

 

Paladins next (this was to explain paladins to someone who didn't game at all. This is only part of what I wrote.) :

 

 

In addition to what I wrote before, it is worth mentioning that a paladin is ALSO usually a knight, with all that implies - mostly, riding (usually a horse) and wearing heavy armor and using sword and lance.

 

 

Some typical paladin "powers."

(just a few examples.)

 

Faith Healing.

I mention this first because to a lot of gamers, it seems to almost define what a paladin is - "A fighter who heals." This is probably because in many games this is the ability that gets most exercise.

 

Detect Evil.

In practice, this can be a complex and subtle ability to administer in a game. Generally speaking the paladin has to stop and concentrate on using the ability, and even then it usually only works against a "major" sort of evil, something truly unholy. It won't pick a pickpocket out of a crowd of likely suspects, but if a vampire or werewolf is concealing their nature and mingling with people, the alert paladin will know that they are not what they seem.

 

Note that this varies according to the game and who's running it. Sometimes a paladin CAN detect a petty thief, especially in action; sometimes only the presence or influence of something outright demonic will set it off.

 

Protection from Evil

In the original AD&D, this meant that certain undeniably evil things literally could not touch the paladin. A vampire for example might strike with a weapon, or use its great strength to hurl a tombstone at the paladin, but could not pick him up and throw him, let alone attempt to bite. In almost every case, a paladin has some form of special protection from malevolent beings and forces, sometimes a protection that can aid others as well.

 

Immunity to Disease and Poison.

The body is but the soul's shadow. When the soul is that pure and incorruptible, the body becomes also pure and incorruptible.

 

<>

I don't know if you've seen this image. On a gaming board I frequent, someone expressed an intention to create a poster with the words "Paladin: Fear No Evil." I went out and found the image and created the poster for him; he approved heartily. I chose an image that to me expresses the true heart of paladinhood, which is NOT about going out in shining armor and smiting monsters, or exhibiting flashy powers. There's a reason the true paladin fears no evil; and the reason is not that he's stupid, and also not that he's a "bad-ass fighter" and "the meanest son of a bitch in the valley."

 

 

Typical requirements for paladins in games and recent fantasy fiction:

 

In some ways, what's expected of a paladin goes right back to the original use of the word - brave, loyal, trustworthy.

 

Brave doesn't mean suicidal. If the bandits are too many, the monster too big, the paladin may retreat - and report as soon as possible to someone in authority (king, high priest, local sherrif, etc.)

 

Loyal and obedient to authority just MAY mean suicidal. If someone with legitimate authority commands the paladin to "Hold this bridge!" or "Go forth and slay the dragon" the obedient knight may have no choice but to die bravely if he cannot survive fulfilling the command.

 

Trustworthy includes not lying, fulfilling vows and oaths, and so forth.

 

Scrupulous religious observance. As the idea of the paladin has evolved, it no longer always includes devotion to a Deity; some gamers say a paladin can be devoted to some ideal, such as abstract Justice. But if a paladin practices a religion, he will attend worship regularly, fast at prescribed times, follow all rules regarding dress, diet, and behavior, and fulfill BOTH the letter and the spirit of all commandments that apply to him. Ideally, a paladin is not obnoxious about it; but even paladins are not always ideal.

 

Code of Honor. As an example, the original AD&D paladin was forbidden from using poison. Not only couldn't he use, say, a poisoned arrow to bring down a marauding dragon; he couldn't even poison the rats in his castle, and would have to find some other way to drive them out. This is an example of how extreme a paladin is expected to be in following rules. As for dropping a drug in an enemy's drink, that would obviously be all but unthinkable.

 

Chaste. A paladin may have a vow of celibacy; but not always. Indeed, a female paladin devoted to Ishtar may be a sacred prostitute! But again, there are always SOME rules regulating a paladin's sexual behavior, and whatever they are - from total abstinence to being required to comply to all requests in a given time and place - the paladin must heed them.

 

Sober. This may range from total abstinence to indulging in moderation; some intoxicants may be permitted and others forbidden. But the only time a paladin should ever be totally stoned is if it's required for some ritual observance; part of an initiation or a cultural festival where it's expected. Most paladins would NEVER become intoxicated, because a paladin is always "on duty."

 

Generous. A paladin probably doesn't have a vow of poverty as such (maintaining weapons, armor, a warhorse, etc. is expensive, let alone if the paladin actually has a palatinate with castle.) But a paladin must give to those in need, probably must contribute to religious institutions, and unless saving for a specific purpose - such as founding a new chapter house of the order - is forbidden to simply accumulate wealth.

 

 

 

 

So one notable thing about the "archetype" (if that's what it is) of paladin: it defines not just what the character can do, but what they can NOT do and what they MUST do. I don't know if you regard "soldier" or "police officer" as "archetypes" for modern games, but that would be another example of a character type that is bound by oaths and duties, defined by what they can't do and must do as well as what they can do - by their Limitations in other words as well as by Skills and Powers.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

 

The Palindromedary is a different kind of Archetype

[eternal_sage]

Re: fantasy hero archtypes

 

Actually, the fantasy equivalent of a ninja would probably be an assassin. Or just a ninja, if the campaign allows ninja.

 

By the way - how would you explain ninja to someone who had never heard of them?

 

I think I see what you're looking for. When you say "ninja" you have an immediate impression of what the character should be able to DO. Just as, in superheroics, if I say "Brick" or "Energy Projector" you have at least a vague idea what kind of capabilities the character has.

 

 

You asked about the difference between a ranger and a paladin. As it happens, I've written something explaining paladins already once before, and a few words on rangers too.

 

 

Rangers first (This was specifically for Hero) :

 

PS: Ranger

 

Anyone with this skill should also have Survival and knowledge of at least one wilderness area or terrain type, and probably Tracking. PS: Ranger is often a complementary skill for outdoor skills. What a ranger can do depends to some extent on how the Game Operations Director defines “Ranger” for a given game, but whether they guard the king’s deer from poachers, guide pilgrims across deserts, or hunt Orcs wherever they are found, any ranger will know much about the wild and things the live and move there. Identifying animals and plants will often be automatic (no roll) if they are native to a place the ranger knows. A ranger can predict weather, up to 48 hrs in advance on a good roll. Rangers usually know a lot about the people and creatures they meet in their chosen wilderness, whether it’s the Goblins who come raiding from yonder mountain or the itinerant smith making the rounds of the local villages. Although PS: Ranger is no substitute for Navigation, a ranger has a good memory for landmarks and is seldom confused as to direction.

 

Examples of PS: Ranger in Use

 

Our Hero falls over, left leg gone numb. Although no wound is visible, the healer finds and removes a flint arrowhead that only becomes visible when withdrawn a handspan from the ranger’s body. Clearly, he is a victim of Elf Stroke. “I thought you said the Elves were friendly?” After making a PS: Ranger roll, Our Hero states “That’s shaped like a Troll arrowhead. Either an Elf used a Troll arrow, or a Troll has learned an Elvin spell.”

 

 

Paladins next (this was to explain paladins to someone who didn't game at all. This is only part of what I wrote.) :

 

 

In addition to what I wrote before, it is worth mentioning that a paladin is ALSO usually a knight, with all that implies - mostly, riding (usually a horse) and wearing heavy armor and using sword and lance.

 

 

Some typical paladin "powers."

(just a few examples.)

 

Faith Healing.

I mention this first because to a lot of gamers, it seems to almost define what a paladin is - "A fighter who heals." This is probably because in many games this is the ability that gets most exercise.

 

Detect Evil.

In practice, this can be a complex and subtle ability to administer in a game. Generally speaking the paladin has to stop and concentrate on using the ability, and even then it usually only works against a "major" sort of evil, something truly unholy. It won't pick a pickpocket out of a crowd of likely suspects, but if a vampire or werewolf is concealing their nature and mingling with people, the alert paladin will know that they are not what they seem.

 

Note that this varies according to the game and who's running it. Sometimes a paladin CAN detect a petty thief, especially in action; sometimes only the presence or influence of something outright demonic will set it off.

 

Protection from Evil

In the original AD&D, this meant that certain undeniably evil things literally could not touch the paladin. A vampire for example might strike with a weapon, or use its great strength to hurl a tombstone at the paladin, but could not pick him up and throw him, let alone attempt to bite. In almost every case, a paladin has some form of special protection from malevolent beings and forces, sometimes a protection that can aid others as well.

 

Immunity to Disease and Poison.

The body is but the soul's shadow. When the soul is that pure and incorruptible, the body becomes also pure and incorruptible.

 

<>

I don't know if you've seen this image. On a gaming board I frequent, someone expressed an intention to create a poster with the words "Paladin: Fear No Evil." I went out and found the image and created the poster for him; he approved heartily. I chose an image that to me expresses the true heart of paladinhood, which is NOT about going out in shining armor and smiting monsters, or exhibiting flashy powers. There's a reason the true paladin fears no evil; and the reason is not that he's stupid, and also not that he's a "bad-ass fighter" and "the meanest son of a bitch in the valley."

 

 

Typical requirements for paladins in games and recent fantasy fiction:

 

In some ways, what's expected of a paladin goes right back to the original use of the word - brave, loyal, trustworthy.

 

Brave doesn't mean suicidal. If the bandits are too many, the monster too big, the paladin may retreat - and report as soon as possible to someone in authority (king, high priest, local sherrif, etc.)

 

Loyal and obedient to authority just MAY mean suicidal. If someone with legitimate authority commands the paladin to "Hold this bridge!" or "Go forth and slay the dragon" the obedient knight may have no choice but to die bravely if he cannot survive fulfilling the command.

 

Trustworthy includes not lying, fulfilling vows and oaths, and so forth.

 

Scrupulous religious observance. As the idea of the paladin has evolved, it no longer always includes devotion to a Deity; some gamers say a paladin can be devoted to some ideal, such as abstract Justice. But if a paladin practices a religion, he will attend worship regularly, fast at prescribed times, follow all rules regarding dress, diet, and behavior, and fulfill BOTH the letter and the spirit of all commandments that apply to him. Ideally, a paladin is not obnoxious about it; but even paladins are not always ideal.

 

Code of Honor. As an example, the original AD&D paladin was forbidden from using poison. Not only couldn't he use, say, a poisoned arrow to bring down a marauding dragon; he couldn't even poison the rats in his castle, and would have to find some other way to drive them out. This is an example of how extreme a paladin is expected to be in following rules. As for dropping a drug in an enemy's drink, that would obviously be all but unthinkable.

 

Chaste. A paladin may have a vow of celibacy; but not always. Indeed, a female paladin devoted to Ishtar may be a sacred prostitute! But again, there are always SOME rules regulating a paladin's sexual behavior, and whatever they are - from total abstinence to being required to comply to all requests in a given time and place - the paladin must heed them.

 

Sober. This may range from total abstinence to indulging in moderation; some intoxicants may be permitted and others forbidden. But the only time a paladin should ever be totally stoned is if it's required for some ritual observance; part of an initiation or a cultural festival where it's expected. Most paladins would NEVER become intoxicated, because a paladin is always "on duty."

 

Generous. A paladin probably doesn't have a vow of poverty as such (maintaining weapons, armor, a warhorse, etc. is expensive, let alone if the paladin actually has a palatinate with castle.) But a paladin must give to those in need, probably must contribute to religious institutions, and unless saving for a specific purpose - such as founding a new chapter house of the order - is forbidden to simply accumulate wealth.

 

 

 

 

So one notable thing about the "archetype" (if that's what it is) of paladin: it defines not just what the character can do, but what they can NOT do and what they MUST do. I don't know if you regard "soldier" or "police officer" as "archetypes" for modern games, but that would be another example of a character type that is bound by oaths and duties, defined by what they can't do and must do as well as what they can do - by their Limitations in other words as well as by Skills and Powers.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

 

The Palindromedary is a different kind of Archetype

 

very nice. i think that for the ranger, one other thing to mention is a devotion to nature and the natural order. they don't go about raping a pillaging the land, but instead tend to try and preserve the land and protect it from over use and all that. in that way they also resemble the paladin in that they have a code of conduct and duties, and may even have a rigorous religious outlook towards nature (some sort of pantheistic nature worship, or even druidism, if the game world contains that type of thing). sure, not all do, but i feel, at least, that enough of them do to make the connection between them viable (if a bit superficial, since character wise, the two are often very different).