fantasy hero archtypes

[eternal_sage]

Re: fantasy hero archtypes

 

i look at it thusly

 

you have 3 "pure types" which are as boiled down and and simple as you can get

 

Fighter(Barbarian), Rogue, Mage (Wizard, Cleric or Druid, doesn't matter)

 

then you have 6 "mixed types" which basically mix and match elements of the above

 

Swashbuckler, Assassin, Bard, Ranger, Paladin, Spellsword

 

i think that really covers you on all types of western fantasy. there may be some others, and you can further mix and match the mixed types (my fav being the nightblade, as its called in the Elder Scrolls video games, which are Spellsword Assassins, basically).

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: fantasy hero archtypes

 

Are these really archetypes? Fighter, Wizard, etc., to me, are tactical skillsets, not archetypes.

 

These would be Archetypes:

the Reluctant Hero

The naive hero

The sidekick

the shady character with a heart of gold

the noble, pure-of-heart, hero

the lucky fool

the guy who just happend to be in the wrong place at the wrong time and gets caught up in an epic struggle

 

None of these have anything to do with "character classes".

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: fantasy hero archtypes

 

Are these really archetypes? Fighter' date=' Wizard, etc., to me, are tactical skillsets, not archetypes.[/quote']

 

Get hung up on terminology, why don'tcha.

 

Pretend the OP asked about "tactical skillsets" then.

[ghost-angel]

Re: fantasy hero archtypes

 

Are these really archetypes? Fighter, Wizard, etc., to me, are tactical skillsets, not archetypes.

 

These would be Archetypes:

the Reluctant Hero

The naive hero

The sidekick

the shady character with a heart of gold

the noble, pure-of-heart, hero

the lucky fool

the guy who just happend to be in the wrong place at the wrong time and gets caught up in an epic struggle

 

None of these have anything to do with "character classes".

 

Technically - both are a kind of Archetype.

 

One is a personality Archetype the other is a "profession" Archetype.

 

The Noble Warrior, the Naive Bard, the Shady Mage, the Reluctant Hero Knave. . .

 

mix and match the two ideas for maximum fun.

[eternal_sage]

Re: fantasy hero archtypes

 

Technically - both are a kind of Archetype.

 

One is a personality Archetype the other is a "profession" Archetype.

 

The Noble Warrior, the Naive Bard, the Shady Mage, the Reluctant Hero Knave. . .

 

mix and match the two ideas for maximum fun.

 

i like this. i think that fantasy, more than many other genres, lends itself to the profession break down (even before i played DnD), as many fantasy stories tend to have fairly well defined skill set differences between major characters, and there happen to be a lot of handy words to describe those.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: fantasy hero archtypes

 

Get hung up on terminology, why don'tcha.

 

Pretend the OP asked about "tactical skillsets" then.

IFAICT, the OP never made it clear which he meant.

 

I'm terribly sorry if my attempt to use the English language correctly offends you.

 

There's more to Fantasy than the tropes laid out by D&D.

 

IMX, "wizard" types are actually quite rare. I don't know of any fantasy source material where the emphasis of characters is on D&D-style character classes.

 

Take FOTR:

Fighter (Human)

Fighter (Elf)

Fighter (Dwarf)

Ranger

Wizard

NPC

NPC

NPC

NPC, with a few magic items

 

No, the hobbits are not "rogues", at least not in the D&D sense of the term.

 

There was a thread I started some time ago called "Ideas From D&D that Ain't Necessarily So." This is one of them.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: fantasy hero archtypes

 

IFAICT, the OP never made it clear which he meant.

 

I'm terribly sorry if my attempt to use the English language correctly offends you.

 

"Correctly" is all about the context. The word "organic" means entirely different things to a chemist and a farmer, and the one going into a message board populated by a group of the other, and insisting on his meaning of the word..... had better expect some friction.

 

This is a board full of gamers. "Archetypes" means warrior, wizard, rogue, priest, and maybe a few others. If this were a board full of English professors, and a gamer went in talking about archetypes being warrior, wizard, rogue, priest, then yeah, he'd better expect some friction too.

 

Am I offended, no. I think you're the chemist in a board full of farmers, insisting there's no such thing as "organic salt".

[Old Man]

Re: fantasy hero archtypes

 

For Fantasy Hero I'd be inclined to skew the archetypes in favor of ones that can't be done well in other systems. Light fighter/martial artist, warrior mage, archer, assassin, various types of wizard. And then the brick tank fighter, which dominates all the rest.

[ghost-angel]

Re: fantasy hero archtypes

 

IMX' date=' "wizard" types are actually quite rare. I don't know of any fantasy source material where the emphasis of characters is on D&D-style character classes.[/quote']

 

Unless you get into the Dragonlance and FR novel series - no they aren't explicit in their dealings with the idea of "D&D Classes" but those Classes came from many sources as "Archetypes to play"

 

Fritz Leiber gave us Fafhrd and The Gray Mouser, this delivering us the Barbarian and Rogue "classes" or Archetypes quite handily.

 

Jack Vance's "Dying Earth" series gave us the entire system behind D&D Magic and by extension the Mage Archetype.

 

Tolkein provided us with Elves, Dwarves and Halflings (er Hobbits) almost as Archetypes in and of themselves.

 

You could even make an argument that the Arthurian Legends gave us the seeds for Paladins.

 

The movie Willow gave us a rather classic Warrior to work with.

 

So yes, our source material has directly contributed to "Fantasy Archetypes" as Warrior, Mage, Rogue and so on. Perhaps not all in one place, but across the spectrum quite handily.

 

And before anything else is said - I also agree with your definition of Archetype as both valid and useful - just as much so as the usual Gamer idea of Archetype.

 

Archetypes are, ultimately, easy descriptors of a Character. They answer the question "What are you?"

 

Warrior,

Rogue,

Nobleman,

Hero,

Coward,

Mage,

Noble Rogue,

Tragic Pirate

 

 

these all work as Archetypes.

[eternal_sage]

Re: fantasy hero archtypes

 

 

Take FOTR:

Fighter (Human)

Fighter (Elf)

Fighter (Dwarf)

Ranger

Wizard

NPC

NPC

NPC

NPC, with a few magic items

 

No, the hobbits are not "rogues", at least not in the D&D sense of the term.

 

There was a thread I started some time ago called "Ideas From D&D that Ain't Necessarily So." This is one of them.

 

i'll bite here. i'll agree that Boromir and Gimli are fighters, but Legolas is a Ranger, as is Aragorn. Legolas routinely demonstrated knowledge of the natural world and the keen senses one would expect from a Ranger. he also did not have the pure martial prowess of Boromir and Gimli, either (although i'd possibly argue that Legolas had a few levels of Rogue, while Aragorn had a few levels of Fighter.. eh, whatever). that is, however, quite useless in this context.

 

your list of archetypes generally needs to include something from my list to be able to be built as an RPG character. sure you have a lucky fool character. that tell me nothing of how to build the character. how does he actually interact with the world? is he physical or mental? he could be 7 feet tall and built like a fortress wall. or he could be a small lanky fellow. he could pound things to submission, or he could be dexterous and skillful. i have no idea how to build said character in HERO system, except i would expect to have a few abilities that would have a luck SFX, and possibly (but not necessarily) a low intelligence. now, if you said lucky foolish warrior, i would have something i can hang my hat on.

 

in other words, what i was talking about are physical archetypes, and what you are talking about are mental/personality archetypes. you can play a game (or even write a story, albeit a boring one) without yours, but without mine you have no verbs, because you cannot understand how they interface with the environment. thus, i think my concept is actually more "core" to the character, and likely to be what he was looking for. even if its not, then between the two of us, he likely got a good idea of what he/she wanted to know. no need to get out of shape over it .

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: fantasy hero archtypes

 

IFAICT, the OP never made it clear which he meant.

 

I'm terribly sorry if my attempt to use the English language correctly offends you.

 

There's more to Fantasy than the tropes laid out by D&D.

 

IMX, "wizard" types are actually quite rare. I don't know of any fantasy source material where the emphasis of characters is on D&D-style character classes.

 

Take FOTR:

Fighter (Human)

Fighter (Elf)

Fighter (Dwarf)

Ranger

Wizard

NPC

NPC

NPC

NPC, with a few magic items

 

No, the hobbits are not "rogues", at least not in the D&D sense of the term.

 

There was a thread I started some time ago called "Ideas From D&D that Ain't Necessarily So." This is one of them.

 

Not to continue the derail too far, but I see the Fellowship as 4 players, each playing a "Hero" character and a "Hobbit" character. Gandalf is the walking plot device/GMNPC, which is why he seldom ever really cuts loose with the magic.

[pinecone]

Re: fantasy hero archtypes

 

Me.

 

Dude...is that a "thing" you're packing? (edges hand towards weapon...)

[The Dude]

Re: fantasy hero archtypes

 

Nope.

 

I don't believe in violence.

[Lucius]

Re: fantasy hero archtypes

 

Well, historically the first type of arch to develop was the semicircular arch such as the Romans used, although the first such arches date back about four thousand years. (I think - now I think of it, maybe the corbelled arch would have come first...)The Romans, however, were first to make such extensive use of arches in creating bridges, aquaducts, and the like. This type of arch is notable for the use of a "keystone" at the top.

 

 

A more pointed arch developed in Islamic culture and a similar form was called a "Gothic" arch in Europe. This is architecturally a stronger form.

 

 

In contrast, the corbelled arch is much weaker than the Roman round arch. This is, if I'm not mistaken, the only kind of arch ever developed in the Precolumbian Americas, although it is by no means unique to them. It's the simplest to make.

 

 

The horseshoe arch is another architecturally ineffecient form, used to be decorative rather than to bear a significant load.

 

 

The strongest arch form resembles a parabolic curve. If you're being historically accurate you won't use it in anything like the middle ages or classical antiquity, but since this is fantasy any culture that works with stone might have discovered it by trial and error, or if they have a moderately sophisticated mathematics. Dwarves would almost certainly be using this form of arch.

 

 

Of course, unless your players are even bigger nitpickers than I, they probably won't question if the arches you draw or describe could support the stresses involved in the structures you have in your game. I know that if you told me the Stone Giant King's massive castle had horseshoe shaped arches supporting the roof and framing the gates and doors, I'd just say "Okay. When we get the audience I'll be sure to flatter the skill of his craftsmen so he knows we don't ALL think his people are stupid clumsy brutes." I don't think most of us would be too concerned with historically accurate architecture either - not to THAT level of detail at least, even if it's supposed to be a historical setting. If arches have to be mentioned at all, in my opinion, it should be to support the "flavor" - perhaps giving different cities or kingdoms a different "look and feel" by making them architecturally different.

 

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary notes that a Gothic arch may have a point, but sometimes Lucius doesn't.....

[eternal_sage]

Re: fantasy hero archtypes

 

*smacks the palindromedary

 

also note that it has both a camel and a Palin in it... actually, its probably apt that it missed the point

[Lucius]

Re: fantasy hero archtypes

 

Okay, more seriously....

 

The question on my mind is, how are you defining “archetype?”

 

 

But one thing I can do is list some of what I see as “archetypal characters” for fantasy, and some notes about them.

 

 

Gilgamesh

The oldest written story we have is the epic of Gilgamesh. He is in a sense the prototype of all heroes.

 

For example.

Gilgamesh is part mortal and part Divine. In this he is the first but hardly the last; many Greek heroes were sons of Gods for example. Thousands of years later we meet Jesus, a God's son who goes on to become one of the most popular and enduring of characters, even bigger than the Beatles.

 

Gilgamesh is a king. It is written “There is only one legend, the legend of the warrior king.” I don't know if I believe that, but there is something to it; and the idea of the hero as royalty (or of royalty being heroic)is another enduring mythic meme. More recent examples are King Arthur and Aragorn from Lord of the Rings. (Compared to Gilgamesh, yes, King Arthur is recent.)

 

Gilgamesh is a warrior – strong, capable, and brave. Like many later heroes, he is “a slayer of beasts and monsters.”

 

Gilgamesh goes on a quest. However, it almost seems like cheating to count that as an archetypal element; what kind of story would NOT feature someone looking for something or trying to accomplish something? Like Moses with the promised land or several of the knights on the Grail Quest, he comes close to his goal but fails – he literally has it in his hand before he loses it.

 

Gilgamesh is a friend. As Achilles had Patroclus and Frodo had Samwise, so Gilgamesh had Enki.

 

Gilgamesh fears death. Although fearless in actual battle, he knows that being part-mortal means he must die one day and the awareness haunts him and is in fact what motivates his epic quest.

 

 

More to come later....

 

 

Lucius Alexander

 

*smacks the palindromedary

 

also note that it has both a camel and a Palin in it... actually, its probably apt that it missed the point

 

The palindromedary objects to being smacked and points out that it's Lucius Alexander who was missing the point.

[eternal_sage]

Re: fantasy hero archtypes

 

The palindromedary objects to being smacked and points out that it's Lucius Alexander who was missing the point.

 

my apologies to the palindromedary! *smacks Lucius twice with a herring to make up for it

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: fantasy hero archtypes

 

Well' date=' historically the first type of arch to develop was the semicircular arch such as the Romans used, although the first such arches date back about four thousand years. (I think - now I think of it, maybe the corbelled arch would have come first...)[/quote']

I remember from an Art History class that the Corbelled Arch predates all the others.

 

The strongest arch form resembles a parabolic curve.

Actually, it would be a catenary curve. It does look pretty close to a parabola, though.

 

And there are also:

Trefoil arches - a decorative variant of a gothic arch

Spanish arches - that came much later, long low elliptical arch, wider than it is tall

Golden arches - McDonald's

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: fantasy hero archtypes

 

I remember from an Art History class that the Corbelled Arch predates all the others.

 

 

Actually, it would be a catenary curve. It does look pretty close to a parabola, though.

 

And there are also:

Trefoil arches - a decorative variant of a gothic arch

Spanish arches - that came much later, long low elliptical arch, wider than it is tall

Golden arches - McDonald's

 

Ah, I see you have a copy of The Backstage Handbook...

[Blue Jogger]

Re: fantasy hero archtypes

 

Fantasy Hero will allow you to build just about any archtype that you want, but there are a few that are easier for Fantasy Hero beyond the basic four (fighter, thief, cleric, mage). And for me, are the ones that I see the most often in Fantasy Hero campaigns.

 

Conjurer / Summoner

There is one power called Summon which is used for summoning imps, horses, wolfs, bears, armies, dragons, as well as, castles and carts. This makes it quite easy to build a Summoner, although the difficulty lies in limiting what he can summon, how amicable, and how often.

 

Shapeshifter

The power of Multiform makes it fairly easy to build someone who can take on another form. Whether it is a demonic form, draconian form, bear form, or something less dramatic such as buff barbarian form or beautiful amazon, this is the archtype of having a battle-ready form (or if it is a curse, a seemingly not-battle-ready form) that pops up occasionally. Note that some just change their appearance, that's shape shift.

 

Conman / Seductress

Although this overlaps with thief, this is the man (or woman) with the million dollar smile. High presence, and lots of presence-based skills. Doesn't do much in combat (unless he's got another specialty) but sweet talking, he's all for it. If your campaign has the word "trade negotiation" or "diplomat" this guy is your best friend. Not so good if the campaign is mainly "dungeon crawling" unless he's really great with illusions or an incredible backstab.

 

Big Guy

The ultimate fighter, he's got 25 to 30 STR and he's not afraid to use it. Usually, he's the tallest guy in the party and has the strength of 10 men. He's not above threatening to eat people who argue with him.

 

Healer

The guy whose main job is to heal everyone else. Usually by knowing the right herbs and spices (and hey he's also the cook). Has the best mindblowing snacks, but be careful, he may carries some poison to deal with the rats.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: fantasy hero archtypes

 

Whoops sorry

I just find "martial artist" to be not fantasy genre at all - it's wushu or mythic Chinese genre and has no place in pseudo-medieval European based fantasy.

 

Stephen R Donaldson's Bloodgaurd, The Wheel of Time's Blademasters and The Sword of Truth's Baka Tau Mana want a word with you.

[Curufea]

Re: fantasy hero archtypes

 

Stephen R Donaldson's Bloodgaurd' date=' The Wheel of Time's Blademasters and The Sword of Truth's Baka Tau Mana want a word with you.[/quote']

 

I'm only worried about characters from GOOD fantasy fiction

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: fantasy hero archtypes

 

Ah' date=' I see you have a copy of [i']The Backstage Handbook[/i]...

I don't know what that is.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: fantasy hero archtypes

 

I don't know what that is.

 

No worries, I realized that might be the case.

 

The Backstage Handbook is the pocket reference for stagehand types, and is chock to the gills with useful tidbits and info useful to building things.

 

It's very utilitarian, but there are a few jokes hidden within, and the section on arch construction includes the same "golden arches" quip you used.

[Lucius]

Re: fantasy hero archtypes

 

I'm only worried about characters from GOOD fantasy fiction

 

Nice quip, but of course Donaldson IS GOOD fantasy fiction. On the other hand what it's NOT is

 

pseudo-medieval European based fantasy.

 

So perhaps your original comment still stands, with the caveat that

 

pseudo-medieval European based fantasy.

 

is neither the whole of the fantasy genre, nor all that's good in fantasy.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary counters that perhaps the comment won't stand at all, since Kushiel's Dart could be considered - broadly - as

pseudo-medieval European based fantasy.

and is not merely good but is among the very best, and the Casselines are most definitely both martial artists and monks. And when are we going to pick another archetypal character to dissect?