Triggered Weapon Takeaway

[eightiesboi]

Hello all,

 

I have a new character that is a heroic martial artist. When he is attacked by a subject with a melee weapon, my character can grab the attacker's weapon, take it from that attacker, and then (if he so chooses) beat the crap out of the target with the newly appropriated weapon. I have been trying to figure out how to build this efficiently, but I think I may be completely off. Right now, I have it built as a naked advantage "trigger" applied to his martial arts "takeaway" manuever. Right now, I have it figured as 5 AP of takeaway for a real cost of 1 point. This seems too cheap. Should I stop looking the gift horse in the mouth, have I built it wrong, or is my point costing in error?

 

(BTW - I am building this with the assumption that the takeaway happens on the attacker's phase, but the counterattack [if any] occurs as normal in my character's phase.)

 

Also, with the above manuever in mind, what value would you give a limitation that said the takeaway could only be used if the attacker missed (or alternatively, only if the attacker hit)?

 

Thank you in advance,

 

Scott

[tesuji]

Re: Triggered Weapon Takeaway

 

I think what you are looking at is DAMAGE SHIELD, thats the advantage for "when i am attacked i get to hurt them" most likely applied to whatever strength you can use.

 

Example - assuming 20 str plus 10 str for takeaway

+1/2 on 30 ap of strength damage shield = 15 cp

+1 continuous 30 cp

total 45 ap

 

with maybe a -1 for "only when attacked by a weapon and only for takeaway maneuver" though some may argue that limit and a -1/2 for requires to-hit roll.

 

net 18 cp.

 

now that seems a lot but frankly, i have found the "constant counter-strike" to be quite potent in a heroic lecvel game where weapons are common.

 

there may be other requirements needed, like maybe some level of ipe (if its not obvious he can do this) or reduced end.

 

as gm i would not allow trigger to supercede damage shield and i would not allow either on martial arts maneuvers without also covering the AP of the relevent strength.

 

I mean, i cannot buy +1 ocv with guns and then apply +1/4 autofire to that 5 cp skill level and use that to claim "i now can fire all guns autofire". I consider martial arts maneuvers to be "add ons" like skill levels to your strength, and so i dont allow advntages on those maneuvers to do squat to the strength, unless you account for those points.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Triggered Weapon Takeaway

 

I think what you are describing can be handled quite easily by combining a Held Action with a Sweep of Takeaway and a Strike.

 

A high Speed is often better used for Held Actions (especially for Martial Artists) than just taking more Attack Actions.

[eightiesboi]

Re: Triggered Weapon Takeaway

 

I think what you are looking at is DAMAGE SHIELD, thats the advantage for "when i am attacked i get to hurt them" most likely applied to whatever strength you can use.

 

as gm i would not allow trigger to supercede damage shield and i would not allow either on martial arts maneuvers without also covering the AP of the relevent strength.

 

Why "Damage Shield" and not "Trigger"? When you get down to it, isn't a damage shield just a form of a trigger?

 

I am not sure what you mean when you say you would not allow trigger to to supercede damage shield. Would you mind explaining further?

 

I mean' date=' i cannot buy +1 ocv with guns and then apply +1/4 autofire to that 5 cp skill level and use that to claim "i now can fire all guns autofire". I consider martial arts maneuvers to be "add ons" like skill levels to your strength, and so i dont allow advntages on those maneuvers to do squat to the strength, unless you account for those points.[/quote']

 

Right, this makes sense. You apply the autofire naked advantage to the APs used to build the gun, not the to the skill (5ER 245). I hadn't considered that applying a naked advantage to the takeaway manuever needs to take STR into account. Thank you.

[eightiesboi]

Re: Triggered Weapon Takeaway

 

I think what you are describing can be handled quite easily by combining a Held Action with a Sweep of Takeaway and a Strike.

 

My GM isn't currently allowing sweep to be used with different combat manuevers.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Triggered Weapon Takeaway

 

My GM isn't currently allowing sweep to be used with different combat manuevers.

 

 

That's too bad.

The cost to offset CV penalties imposed by its use would cost about the same as a Triggered approach.

 

Here's one way to do it with Trigger:

 

13 Smash them with their own weapon!: Multipower, 30-point reserve, all slots Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger requires a Full Phase to reset; Only after Disarm; +1/4) (37 Active Points); Required Hands Two-Handed (-1/2), Real Weapon (-1/4); all slots OIF (Weapon of Opportunity; -1/2), Requires A Skill Roll (-1/2)

1u 1) Hand-To-Hand Attack +6d6 (30 Active Points); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/2) 3

1u 2) Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 2d6 (2d6+1 w/STR) (30 Active Points) 3

 

You can't add damage from Martial Arts but you do get to add it from STR.

 

This is 'half' of what you were looking for.

The character still has to use a normal Action (Held or otherwise) to Disarm an opponent.

But the character does NOT have to burn another Phase's action to attack the disarmed opponent.

[tesuji]

Re: Triggered Weapon Takeaway

 

Why "Damage Shield" and not "Trigger"? When you get down to it, isn't a damage shield just a form of a trigger?

 

I am not sure what you mean when you say you would not allow trigger to to supercede damage shield. Would you mind explaining further?

 

 

 

 

trigger has expanded in 5er and now yes does wind up doing damage shields job if you want it to, but i resist using the general to replace the more specific.

 

however, the automatic riposte on pg 270 hero 5er shows the necessary cost at +1 for this kind of trigger.

 

+1 AP on 30 strenght 30 ap

trigger (when character attacked by weapon, takes no time, reset automatically)

-1/2 (only for takeaway maneuver)

total cost 20 cp.

 

the difference between trigger and DS in this case is trigger requires to hit roll automatically, damage shield got you a lim for that, and trigger defines the attacking triggger for you. the net ap i less but the final cost is proximate.

 

I just prefer using the specific elements over the general elements.

[Vulcan]

Re: Triggered Weapon Takeaway

 

I think what you are looking at is DAMAGE SHIELD, thats the advantage for "when i am attacked i get to hurt them" most likely applied to whatever strength you can use.

 

Example - assuming 20 str plus 10 str for takeaway

+1/2 on 30 ap of strength damage shield = 15 cp

+1 continuous 30 cp

total 45 ap

 

with maybe a -1 for "only when attacked by a weapon and only for takeaway maneuver" though some may argue that limit and a -1/2 for requires to-hit roll.

 

net 18 cp.

 

now that seems a lot but frankly, i have found the "constant counter-strike" to be quite potent in a heroic lecvel game where weapons are common.

 

there may be other requirements needed, like maybe some level of ipe (if its not obvious he can do this) or reduced end.

 

as gm i would not allow trigger to supercede damage shield and i would not allow either on martial arts maneuvers without also covering the AP of the relevent strength.

 

I mean, i cannot buy +1 ocv with guns and then apply +1/4 autofire to that 5 cp skill level and use that to claim "i now can fire all guns autofire". I consider martial arts maneuvers to be "add ons" like skill levels to your strength, and so i dont allow advntages on those maneuvers to do squat to the strength, unless you account for those points.

 

However there is a REALLY BIG down side to the Damage Shield construct. A Damage Shield only works once you've been hit. In other words, you take damage and the guy hitting you takes the effect of the damage shield at the same time.

 

Since the effect you're describing sounds a lot like something out of Aikido or Jujitsu, I don't think Damage Shield is the mechanic you're looking for.

 

Instead, I think that buying the naked advantage Trigger on the STR of the Takeaway is the way to go.

[Vulcan]

Re: Triggered Weapon Takeaway

 

trigger has expanded in 5er and now yes does wind up doing damage shields job if you want it to, but i resist using the general to replace the more specific.

 

however, the automatic riposte on pg 270 hero 5er shows the necessary cost at +1 for this kind of trigger.

 

+1 AP on 30 strenght 30 ap

trigger (when character attacked by weapon, takes no time, reset automatically)

-1/2 (only for takeaway maneuver)

total cost 20 cp.

 

the difference between trigger and DS in this case is trigger requires to hit roll automatically, damage shield got you a lim for that, and trigger defines the attacking triggger for you. the net ap i less but the final cost is proximate.

 

I just prefer using the specific elements over the general elements.

 

You might also be able to take a limitation for 'must have a free hand'...

[tesuji]

Re: Triggered Weapon Takeaway

 

However there is a REALLY BIG down side to the Damage Shield construct. A Damage Shield only works once you've been hit. In other words, you take damage and the guy hitting you takes the effect of the damage shield at the same time.

 

Since the effect you're describing sounds a lot like something out of Aikido or Jujitsu, I don't think Damage Shield is the mechanic you're looking for.

 

Instead, I think that buying the naked advantage Trigger on the STR of the Takeaway is the way to go.

 

iirc damage shield can also apply vs a blocked attack - so th sequence would be the enemy strikes at you and you throw a block - then the damage shield kicks in and you snag the blade (or try to)

 

even with trigger, the trigger cannot go before the triggering action so the enemy strike still gets thru - trigger isn't a defense.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Triggered Weapon Takeaway

 

I'm curious, maybe I missed the boat here:

 

Why isn't this being done as a Held Action (Full Action), Wait to be Attacked, whatever, then do a Multiple Power Attack, with Martial Maneuvers, Take Away followed with a Strike?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Triggered Weapon Takeaway

 

I'm curious, maybe I missed the boat here:

 

Why isn't this being done as a Held Action (Full Action), Wait to be Attacked, whatever, then do a Multiple Power Attack, with Martial Maneuvers, Take Away followed with a Strike?

 

Is it a multiple power, or are you just using strength twice? Mind you, held action, takeaway then (next phase) strike sounds peachy, and entirely appropriate for a heroic game.

[eightiesboi]

Re: Triggered Weapon Takeaway

 

I'm curious, maybe I missed the boat here:

 

Why isn't this being done as a Held Action (Full Action), Wait to be Attacked, whatever, then do a Multiple Power Attack, with Martial Maneuvers, Take Away followed with a Strike?

 

GM does not allow multiple power attacks.

[eightiesboi]

Re: Triggered Weapon Takeaway

 

Is it a multiple power' date=' or are you just using strength twice? Mind you, held action, takeaway then (next phase) strike sounds peachy, and entirely appropriate for a heroic game.[/quote']

 

This is what I am currently doing. I also have another character in the superheroic version of the game who has a version of the automatic riposte (sorry, I don't have the page number right now, as I am not at home) in 5ER. I wanted to create something similar. The concept behind this is a character who is really good at taking away your melee weapon even when he is in full combat mode. The "held action, takeaway; next phase, strike" works, but only so long as he can hold an action.

 

Think River Tam in "Serenity" (not as concepted in "Firefly" itself). It is a bad idea to attack River in general, but a *really* bad idea to attack her with a melee weapon, as it inevitably ends up in her hands.

[eightiesboi]

Re: Triggered Weapon Takeaway

 

even with trigger' date=' the trigger cannot go before the triggering action so the enemy strike still gets thru - trigger isn't a defense.[/quote']

 

Maybe I was imagining it, but I recall reading somewhere that if the trigger is "being attacked" (or something similar), then a DEX roll-off occurs to determine whether the attack completes itself before the triggered even occurs, or if the trigger "interrupts" (if you will) the attack.

 

But I could be making that up...

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Triggered Weapon Takeaway

 

That's too bad.

The cost to offset CV penalties imposed by its use would cost about the same as a Triggered approach.

 

Here's one way to do it with Trigger:

 

13 Smash them with their own weapon!: Multipower, 30-point reserve, all slots Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger requires a Full Phase to reset; Only after Disarm; +1/4) (37 Active Points); Required Hands Two-Handed (-1/2), Real Weapon (-1/4); all slots OIF (Weapon of Opportunity; -1/2), Requires A Skill Roll (-1/2)

1u 1) Hand-To-Hand Attack +6d6 (30 Active Points); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/2) 3

1u 2) Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 2d6 (2d6+1 w/STR) (30 Active Points) 3

 

You can't add damage from Martial Arts but you do get to add it from STR.

 

This is 'half' of what you were looking for.

The character still has to use a normal Action (Held or otherwise) to Disarm an opponent.

But the character does NOT have to burn another Phase's action to attack the disarmed opponent.

 

If you're willing to spend 30+ points including the Power Skill necessary to use these abilities you could build the 'takeaway' as a triggered power as well.

 

14 I'll Take That Weapon!: Teleportation 1", No Relative Velocity, Position Shift, Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger requires a Full Phase to reset; Whenever attacked with HTH weapon; +1/4), Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4), Usable As Attack (+1) (42 Active Points); Limited Power Only To Disarm/Grab Objects (-1), Required Hands Two-Handed (-1/2), Requires A Skill Roll (-1/2) 2

 

Combined with the "Smash.." build this doesn't require the character to use his own Phase's action at all. It is still only usable once per Phase however. It doesn't use Sweep or Multiple Power Attack rules either since both parts are "Triggered" abilities.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Triggered Weapon Takeaway

 

Wait... okay, maybe it's me. First, HM, nice build, as always. Second, more importantly:

 

1) I believe Trigger actually says "should not be used with 'when attacked,'" but I may be misremembering that.

 

2) Multiple Power Attack is built to do precisely what you want, without spending some gawful number of points on a super powered edition of it.

 

3) Does the GM understand the Multiple Power Attack rules? We just had a similar conversation in my own group about them, and my PC, Karas, uses them like it's going out of style. You can execute two martial maneuvers as part of one MPA, and it cites "take away and leg sweep" as an example. If you executed a Sweep, that's multiple damage-dealing attacks, but something like this is really... well, it seems that the GM has taken away the ability to do this in the simplest most effective way possible.

 

In other words: We can build the crazy weird version, but it's not actually REQUIRED if you go by the RAW. Yes, Multiple Power Attack is a groovy, nasty rule in the right hands. But if the GM knows and uses the rules, it's actually well balanced and adds to the cinema.

[Vulcan]

Re: Triggered Weapon Takeaway

 

Maybe I was imagining it, but I recall reading somewhere that if the trigger is "being attacked" (or something similar), then a DEX roll-off occurs to determine whether the attack completes itself before the triggered even occurs, or if the trigger "interrupts" (if you will) the attack.

 

But I could be making that up...

 

That would really make Trigger a lot less useful for this sorta thing. To do it reliably you'd also need a bunch of levels with DEX rolls limited to Takeaways.

 

Thinking about it, it might make this sort of construct pretty much impossible to build. As a GM I may opt to discard the DEX roll-off... if I think the concept is justified.

[Vulcan]

Re: Triggered Weapon Takeaway

 

Wait... okay, maybe it's me. First, HM, nice build, as always. Second, more importantly:

 

1) I believe Trigger actually says "should not be used with 'when attacked,'" but I may be misremembering that.

 

2) Multiple Power Attack is built to do precisely what you want, without spending some gawful number of points on a super powered edition of it.

 

3) Does the GM understand the Multiple Power Attack rules? We just had a similar conversation in my own group about them, and my PC, Karas, uses them like it's going out of style. You can execute two martial maneuvers as part of one MPA, and it cites "take away and leg sweep" as an example. If you executed a Sweep, that's multiple damage-dealing attacks, but something like this is really... well, it seems that the GM has taken away the ability to do this in the simplest most effective way possible.

 

In other words: We can build the crazy weird version, but it's not actually REQUIRED if you go by the RAW. Yes, Multiple Power Attack is a groovy, nasty rule in the right hands. But if the GM knows and uses the rules, it's actually well balanced and adds to the cinema.

 

And if the GM doesn't care and won't change his mind, then it is up to this sorta costruct to get it 'by the other rules.'

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Triggered Weapon Takeaway

 

And if the GM doesn't care and won't change his mind' date=' then it is up to this sorta costruct to get it 'by the [i']other [/i]rules.'

 

If the GM doesn't care, that's an issue. If he won't change his mind, eh, that's on the GM. But as has been said on this board many, many times:

 

Use the Rules as Written (RAW). Then, if something is truly broken, hey, you can always adjust it. But for someone with a perfectly valid concept to NOT be able to do it within the confines of the rules, and to have the GM then say "Oh, but if you build some weirdo power it's okay," seems backwards to me.

[Alibear]

Re: Triggered Weapon Takeaway

 

Is this the part where I say Duplication?

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Triggered Weapon Takeaway

 

Is this the part where I say Duplication?

 

Of course not! It's the part where you say Transform -- you, into you without a weapon.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Triggered Weapon Takeaway

 

Hello all,

 

I have a new character that is a heroic martial artist. When he is attacked by a subject with a melee weapon, my character can grab the attacker's weapon, take it from that attacker, and then (if he so chooses) beat the crap out of the target with the newly appropriated weapon. I have been trying to figure out how to build this efficiently, but I think I may be completely off. Right now, I have it built as a naked advantage "trigger" applied to his martial arts "takeaway" manuever. Right now, I have it figured as 5 AP of takeaway for a real cost of 1 point. This seems too cheap. Should I stop looking the gift horse in the mouth, have I built it wrong, or is my point costing in error?

Back to the original post here...

 

Yeah, this works as one build option for this move (Naked Trigger for Takeaway), and yes, you costed it wrong. UMA has special rules for working out the cost of Advantaging Martial Maneuvers by determining sort of a "virtual AP" value for any given maneuver.

[eightiesboi]

Re: Triggered Weapon Takeaway

 

Back to the original post here...

 

Yeah, this works as one build option for this move (Naked Trigger for Takeaway), and yes, you costed it wrong. UMA has special rules for working out the cost of Advantaging Martial Maneuvers by determining sort of a "virtual AP" value for any given maneuver.

 

I have UMA, and I vaguely remember the part you mention here. I will look it up--thank you!

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Triggered Weapon Takeaway

 

I have UMA' date=' and I vaguely remember the part you mention here. I will look it up--thank you! [/quote']

 

No worries, glad to help out