A multistage VPP

[algesan]

I've thought of one way to do this, but it was kludgy and I want to see if there is a more elegant way.

 

Pretty much, a VPP that operates on different levels depending on conditions. I'm going to use a gadget pool as an example for simplicity, but you could use anything.

 

Gadgeteer has various scraps of items around, some which can be used for tools and others for construction. Pool limit: 15 Active points.

 

Gadgeteer has a small tool bag/kit with multitools and small parts. Other items around that can be used for construction. Pool limit: 30 Active points.

 

Gadgeteer has his tool chest with more tools and more sophisticated parts. Pool limit: 45 Active points.

 

Gadgeteer has his pickup truck with tool boxes on the back and extra materials available. Pool limit: 60 active points.

 

Gadgeteer is in his workshop with shop tools, widgets and construction materials. Pool limit: 75 active points.

 

Any ideas?

Thanks

[ghost-angel]

Re: A multistage VPP

 

Active Points Limited By Available Materials (-1/2 to -1)

 

The Limitation value is based off of the GMs discretion and the likelihood that you'll be without full access often enough.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: A multistage VPP

 

Build multiple pools with GM permission to use them together as one, or build limitations on the reserve so it scales (like was suggested)

[mmshah]

Re: A multistage VPP

 

Basically what you want is a partially limited VPP. This is not technically legal, but there is an example of one in one of the books but I don't remember which. The character has a 60 Point VPP and then another 30 Point VPP that adds onto the 60 Points one to be able to make 90 Point powers but only when the additional limitations are met. In the example character from the book, I think the limitation was something like requires hours to prepare.

 

Found him, pg. 22 of Arcane Adversaries, The Demonologist on pg. 24 under the Powers/Tactics Section is further described how the Pools work together.

[Sean Waters]

Re: A multistage VPP

 

I've thought of one way to do this, but it was kludgy and I want to see if there is a more elegant way.

 

Pretty much, a VPP that operates on different levels depending on conditions. I'm going to use a gadget pool as an example for simplicity, but you could use anything.

 

Gadgeteer has various scraps of items around, some which can be used for tools and others for construction. Pool limit: 15 Active points.

 

Gadgeteer has a small tool bag/kit with multitools and small parts. Other items around that can be used for construction. Pool limit: 30 Active points.

 

Gadgeteer has his tool chest with more tools and more sophisticated parts. Pool limit: 45 Active points.

 

Gadgeteer has his pickup truck with tool boxes on the back and extra materials available. Pool limit: 60 active points.

 

Gadgeteer is in his workshop with shop tools, widgets and construction materials. Pool limit: 75 active points.

 

Any ideas?

Thanks

 

Frameworks can not add together, technically, so you can not simply build it as a series of 15 point pools with progressive limtiaitons that you can combine, which was my first thought.

 

That means you have to build it as a single 75 point pool. If the whole thing was built with the limitation 'can only change powers in workshop' that would be worth -1/2, equivalent to 'can only be changed in lab'.

 

As the 'maximum' limitation is -1/2 the GM might let you take a -1/4 limitation on the whole pool to reflect the fact that you can build some low power items when not in the lab.

 

In addition you can of course take a focus limitation on the control cost and the slots (probably -1/2, objects of opportunity), and any other limitations you want to add in, but the limitation you get from the above circumstances is comparatively slight.

[algesan]

Re: A multistage VPP

 

Thanks a bunch. I now have two ideas that might work, a limit for materials available (which would include better equipment as well as parts) or if I can dig up that character, addable VPPs that only work together under certain circumstances.

 

Another thought (since I really don't need five levels of difference), would be to give a small VPP intrinsic to the character and put a large one through a focus and require the small one to be configured with a "control" power to use the larger one.

[Matt the Bruins]

Re: A multistage VPP

 

If I remember correctly, the master villain Tyrannon from Mystic Worlds is also built with an additive VPP that can only be used when some rare conditions are met. If there are multiple gradations through, I'd say that ghost-angel's suggestion above would be the better way to go about it.

[Sean Waters]

Re: A multistage VPP

 

If I remember correctly' date=' the master villain Tyrannon from [i']Mystic Worlds[/i] is also built with an additive VPP that can only be used when some rare conditions are met. If there are multiple gradations through, I'd say that ghost-angel's suggestion above would be the better way to go about it.

 

'Can only be changed in a workshop' is functionally equivalent to 'can only be changed in a lab', which is only worth -1/2 (p324), and is the greatest limitation described.

 

You can not add VPPs together by RAW because different frameworks can not add effects(p310), so you have to build a big VPP with a limitation reflecting the varying limtiation bands or build the whole thing as a partially limited power, but that seems overly complex in all the circumstances, given the very narrow range of limitations available.

[algesan]

Re: A multistage VPP

 

Sean, this isn't about changing the powers, it is about the amount of active points available to be used.

 

If you have a pocket knife, a sock, some floss and a rubber band, then you can only do X active points.

 

If you have large selection of tools and parts, then you can do 2X points in an active power.

 

If you have a full shop and a hardware store, then you could do 3x points.

 

Ahhh, let me try it another way, I may have made a mistake using a Gadgeteer.

 

If all the mage can do is wiggle his fingers, then he can do X Active

 

If he has a cheap wand and components, he can do 2x Active

 

If he has his fancy staff and some high priced components, he can do 3x active.

 

Etc.

 

Practical: He has his Fireball spell memorized for today. Using the numbers I gave in the OP, here are his options

 

2d6 EB EX

 

4d6 EB EX

 

6d6 EB EX

 

8d6 EB EX

 

10d6 EB EX

 

It isn't about changing the powers slotted in, it is about how many active points he can use. Gadgeteer X can build a small zip gun at the base level and a powerful rifle at the top level, but it is still about building a gun with tools (in shop/lab).

 

EDIT: Ok, DUH! Simply define the various levels of gear/equipment as an AID to the VPP, with the AID points going to both the base and control costs.

[ghost-angel]

Re: A multistage VPP

 

It really is just a Limit on a single large pool.

 

Variable Power Pool; 80 Active Points; Control Cost 23 Points; Active Points Limited by Available Hardware (-1/2); All Slots at least IIF (-1/4); 103 Real Points

 

 

What you really need is to determine what the maximum Active Points that can be obtained (in most games this will be the Active Point Limit) and buy the VPP to that Level. The whole concept is a Limit on the maximum amount the Character can get. This is a case of start at the top and work your way down.

[algesan]

Re: A multistage VPP

 

Nice, I actually got a better answer to two questions for two different VPPs. Yours I can use for the small gadget pool the "Legendary Engineer" is going to have to whip up widgets and missing parts and simply doing some AID powers for a psionic VPP on independent items will let the psionic character not suck wind vs the guys with the guns. Of course, part of this is based on the actual players involved, I've got two I'd never turn over that kind of psionic VPP to, or any other VPP except for a dinky one like the gadget pool, studded with little notes to "Don't Push It".

 

It really is just a Limit on a single large pool.

 

Variable Power Pool; 80 Active Points; Control Cost 23 Points; Active Points Limited by Available Hardware (-1/2); All Slots at least IIF (-1/4); 103 Real Points

 

 

What you really need is to determine what the maximum Active Points that can be obtained (in most games this will be the Active Point Limit) and buy the VPP to that Level. The whole concept is a Limit on the maximum amount the Character can get. This is a case of start at the top and work your way down.

[Sean Waters]

Re: A multistage VPP

 

Sean, this isn't about changing the powers, it is about the amount of active points available to be used.

 

If you have a pocket knife, a sock, some floss and a rubber band, then you can only do X active points.

 

If you have large selection of tools and parts, then you can do 2X points in an active power.

 

If you have a full shop and a hardware store, then you could do 3x points.

 

Ahhh, let me try it another way, I may have made a mistake using a Gadgeteer.

 

If all the mage can do is wiggle his fingers, then he can do X Active

 

If he has a cheap wand and components, he can do 2x Active

 

If he has his fancy staff and some high priced components, he can do 3x active.

 

Etc.

 

Practical: He has his Fireball spell memorized for today. Using the numbers I gave in the OP, here are his options

 

2d6 EB EX

 

4d6 EB EX

 

6d6 EB EX

 

8d6 EB EX

 

10d6 EB EX

 

It isn't about changing the powers slotted in, it is about how many active points he can use. Gadgeteer X can build a small zip gun at the base level and a powerful rifle at the top level, but it is still about building a gun with tools (in shop/lab).

 

EDIT: Ok, DUH! Simply define the various levels of gear/equipment as an AID to the VPP, with the AID points going to both the base and control costs.

 

 

A VPP stays 'set' until you change it. That means that you will always have 75 (or 80 or whatever) points in pool, even if you can only change them every other week. SO you have he full pool worth of gadgets (if all built as OAF, for example, you could manage up to 160 points of gadgets in an 80 point pool, with no single power in excess of 80 points), and you can (in the field) modifiy up to 15 points of those powers to work differently, but youstill have access to the whole pool.

 

What I'm suggesting is what ghost-angel said so succinctly - it is a large pool with a limit on it reflecting what you need to do to change the contents.

 

What you present above with the mage example is a bit different.

 

It is not so much a limitation on the way in which you can change the pool, but a limitation on how much of the pool is available in a given situation.

 

Still not a problem.

 

80 point pool: 80 points

 

Control cost for 20 points (no limits): 10 points

Control cost for NEXT 20 points (IIF - 1/4): 8 points

Control cost for NEXT 20 points (OIF -1/2): 7 points

Control cost for LAST 20 points (OAF -1): 5 points

 

Total: 80+10+8+7+5 = 110

 

That way if you do not have any magical apparatus you can only use 20 points of power, whereas if you have the magic staff you can wield the full 80 points. You still have to pay for the full pool but the control cost reflects the relatively limited utility. Note this is built as a single large pool with a partially limited control cost, not as four seperate pools which add - which would not be legal. Only a technical point, but an important one.

 

VPP may not be the best thing for you here. You may well be better off with a limited MP as you can also place limits on the pool cost:

 

20 point pool (no limitations): 20 points

Next 20 points in pool (IIF -1/4): 16 points

Next 20 points in pool (OIF): 13 points

Last 20 points in pool (OAF): 10 points

 

Total = 20+16+13+10 = 59 points, with each ultra slot costing 6 points: so you could have (110-59)/6 = 8 ultra slots for a similar price to the VPP (although the VPP would then be a much better bet due to the flexibility and ability to have additional powers).

 

Self Aid is rarely an efficient build - usually much cheaper and easier to simply build the power at the level you want it.

 

VPP Pool (20 points) + control cost = 10 points TOTAL 30 points.

 

to manage +30 points of effect from an Aid you need 10d6 at standard effect, which is 100 points in AID. Even with SELF ONLY and OAF (-1 1/2) you still pay at least 40 points for a 30 point boost in power: not worth it.

[algesan]

Re: A multistage VPP

 

Okay Sean, so what you are saying is to let him have the entire 75 points (for example) for buying real points worth of powers, but base the availability of the active points around partially limiting the control cost via the various foci, correct?

 

I am trying to make some of the "booster" parts independent items so that when the character has his:

1) Gadgeteer: pocket knife, tool bag, tool chest, truck, workshop;

2) Mage: fingers, small wand, big wand, small staff, big staff;

3) Psionic: mind, psi crystal ring, psi crystal earring, psi crystal necklace, psi crystal helmet;

 

he has more available points to spend. If I have what you are saying right, then he could build some 75 point powers and have them available the way you are stating it (and the way I did with the mage example), just at lower AP levels.

 

Hmmm, that would work well enough in concept for a gadgeteer who could build an 75 active point gun in his shop and use it all the time, but in the field could only whip up a 15 active point version if the big one broke. (Actually that works real darn well for one of the other characters in my game.)

 

I'm just not sure if it is fitting my concept for a mage or a psionic where I want both the active points and real points available to be lowered together. Also I'm wanting to put independent foci with some of the pool boosting on it, which is why I'm thinking turning them into Aid Power items.

 

BTW, I know I can hand wave it and make it work, but I'd prefer not to.