Suggested lim value for limited speed

[Zed-F]

I have a mentalist that has some extra speed only for using mental powers. I'm guessing at a value for the limitation at -1/2, since the character can't move, dodge/block, recover, or use any non-mental powers or attacks on those phases. Does that sound about right?

 

Is there any reason I should/shouldn't make it non-persistent SPD as well? (Leaving character conception aside for the moment.)

[Agent X]

Re: Suggested lim value for limited speed

 

Originally posted by Zed-F

I have a mentalist that has some extra speed only for using mental powers. I'm guessing at a value for the limitation at -1/2, since the character can't move, dodge/block, recover, or use any non-mental powers or attacks on those phases. Does that sound about right?

 

Is there any reason I should/shouldn't make it non-persistent SPD as well? (Leaving character conception aside for the moment.)

What's the effect of speed being non-persistent? How is it limiting?

 

-1/2 is the value they give this limitation for Menton's extra speed bought only for mental/telekinetic powers in Conquerors, Killers, and Crooks.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Re: Suggested lim value for limited speed

 

Originally posted by Agent X

What's the effect of speed being non-persistent? How is it limiting?

 

I seem to recall any power being non-persistent, and SPD with limitations is a power. But since it turns on or off as a zero phase with no END cost, I fail to see the limitation.

 

Originally posted by Agent X

-1/2 is the value they give this limitation for Menton's extra speed bought only for mental/telekinetic powers in Conquerors, Killers, and Crooks.

 

To me, this sets a floor for the limitation. The ceiling would be "it's free" - available to those who have no mental or telekinetic powers whatsoever. Somewhere in between depending on your character's mental /telekinetic and other abilities, lies the appropriate value for any given character. I'd say it's -1/2 for most mentalists, and I don't expect many others to buy it.

[Zed-F]

Regarding the non-persistent lim, I don't really expect to use it, as I don't have a good in-character reason for it. I was just thinking that it seemed to have munchkin potential. It's basically the same as Costs End to Activate, without the END cost.

 

Regarding the extra SPD, only for mental powers, this is for a character with no physical training, a physical disability, and a base SPD of 2. She is, however, relatively intelligent; her mind simply works faster than her body's physical reaction speed. The extra SPD for mental powers seemed to be the best way to represent this. Besides, in order to be properly heroic, a SPD higher than 2 is in order.

 

It seems like a -1/2 lim is the right answer. Thanx.

[J4y]

Speed's value is fairly variable to begin with so the point reduction should vary a lot between different characters. The higher the points of your campaign the cheaper speed is relativly (e.g. +1 SPD on a 500pt character probably gives a lot more effect for the points than a +1 SPD on a 100pt character.) Take a +1 SPD only to recover for instance. If the character has 10 or more rec then that bonus speed, even with that big limitation, starts to look like a bargain at full price, but a character with a 5 rec it's fairly expensive and should probably have a big modifier.

 

If your character would almost always be doing mental actions with actions ANYWAY it's not really a limitation so shouldn't be worth anything. You should instead be getting points back somewhere else because of the character's inability to do non-mental things.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by J4y

Speed's value is fairly variable to begin with so the point reduction should vary a lot between different characters. The higher the points of your campaign the cheaper speed is relativly (e.g. +1 SPD on a 500pt character probably gives a lot more effect for the points than a +1 SPD on a 100pt character.) Take a +1 SPD only to recover for instance. If the character has 10 or more rec then that bonus speed, even with that big limitation, starts to look like a bargain at full price, but a character with a 5 rec it's fairly expensive and should probably have a big modifier.

 

If your character would almost always be doing mental actions with actions ANYWAY it's not really a limitation so shouldn't be worth anything. You should instead be getting points back somewhere else because of the character's inability to do non-mental things.

I think this way lies madness. I understand the importance of placing a limitation's value by effect but I also understand that at a certain point, you might as well come up with a Rule of X, Effectiveness Rating, or whatever and not even worry about points if your going to slide the values of limitations around this much.

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by J4y

If your character would almost always be doing mental actions with actions ANYWAY it's not really a limitation so shouldn't be worth anything. You should instead be getting points back somewhere else because of the character's inability to do non-mental things.

I completely agree. The proposed character is a mentalist, so "+2 SPD Only for Mental Powers" simply isn't worth a Limitation in my book.

 

I think it would be more appropriate to give the character a hefty Physical Limitation: Crippled & Wheel-chair bound Disad to reflect her handicap.

 

BTW, I would not permit Menton as built in my campaign. SPD is SPD, especially for a mentalist who can engage you in Chicago while he sips margaritas in Rio de Janiero. It's just too difficult to GM such a thing in a fair manner. Which Phases are his "physical" ones and which extra ones are "mental only"?

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Trebuchet

I completely agree. The proposed character is a mentalist, so "+2 SPD Only for Mental Powers" simply isn't worth a Limitation in my book.

 

I think it would be more appropriate to give the character a hefty Physical Limitation: Crippled & Wheel-chair bound Disad to reflect her handicap.

 

BTW, I would not permit Menton as built in my campaign. SPD is SPD, especially for a mentalist who can engage you in Chicago while he sips margaritas in Rio de Janiero. It's just too difficult to GM such a thing in a fair manner. Which Phases are his "physical" ones and which extra ones are "mental only"?

I disagree wholeheartedly. You are presuming the only thing a mentalist would find useful is using their mental powers and that this limitation would never come up. I am pretty sure it would come up in my campaign.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Agent X

I disagree wholeheartedly. You are presuming the only thing a mentalist would find useful is using their mental powers and that this limitation would never come up. I am pretty sure it would come up in my campaign.

 

If nothing else, the character cannot recover (from being Stunned or regularly) in those bonus phases. That alone should be worth something.

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

If nothing else, the character cannot recover (from being Stunned or regularly) in those bonus phases. That alone should be worth something.

I might buy "Cannot Recover During Odd-Numbered Phases": -¼ Limitation or some such applied to the SPD. No way it's worth -½ IMHO.

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by Agent X

I disagree wholeheartedly. You are presuming the only thing a mentalist would find useful is using their mental powers and that this limitation would never come up. I am pretty sure it would come up in my campaign.

Really? Would you permit a martial artist to take "+2 SPD Only for Combat: - ½"? SPD is strictly a combat stat; it is utterly meaningless outside of segmented time.

 

This situation involves a host of questions that need to be answered: Do Continuous Powers such as Force Fields only cost END during "physical" Phases, or during "mental" ones as well? Which Phases are 'physical" and which are "mental"? If the character with this Limitation has a 4 SPD, can she use Phases 3 and 6 as physical, and then 9 and 12 as mental? Can that be changed each turn? What if she does a Block with her body while Ego Blasting with her mind? Is Telekinesis, Flight or Teleport with a mental special effect a mental or physical power? This had better be fully spelled out in advance by the player or GM.

 

I repeat: This was a poorly considered power construct for Menton, and it's poorly conceived for other characters as well. I would not permit it in my campaign.

[Zed-F]

Really? Would you permit a martial artist to take "+2 SPD Only for Combat: - ½"? SPD is strictly a combat stat; it is utterly meaningless outside of segmented time.

There are lots of limitations that are pretty much meaningless outside of segmented time. How about Extra time, takes full phase? Yet we still allow those sorts of limitations on all kinds of powers.

 

Just to add my 2 cents to the debate, the character's major power is Multiform on a technological focus, and it is *not* a mental power. She definitely has stuff she wants to be doing other than using mental attacks. Moreover, her mental powers are all 45 AP powers in a multipower, and I don't think she has a single attack above 3d6. (This on a 200-pt. low-powered super.) Her mental powers are useful when she needs to be stealthy, or when she's caught without her Multiform focus & needs to deal with a thug or a low-powered agent, but they are not the be-all and end-all of the character. Most of the time, when in combat, she would prefer to switch to a more combat-effective form as soon as it was convenient to do so.

 

Also, all her continuous powers (and most of her other ones) are bought to 0 END, so the question of END cost doesn't come into play. If they were not, I would make her pay END for continuous powers in all her phases. My concept of how physical vs. mental actions works is that she gets to take physical actions on phases that are common to SPD 2 only, since that's her physical SPD. That's why I chose a multiple of her base SPD to buy up to. As far as physical actions lasting during mental phases goes, that is a very good question and raises some interesting thoughts. I would say that the physical SFX may last throughout if it's a continous physical action (eg. running,) but the character gains no further benefits from the action once the mental phase arrives if she takes her mind off what she was doing physically and takes a mental action. So if she blocks in phase 6, she would have the benefit of the block until phase 9; after that, if she took a mental action, her body may still be "blocking", but her mind is somewhere else and so she cannot block effectively. If she wants to keep blocking, she must keep her mind on what she is doing, so she would have to take no mental actions in phase 9. How this interacts with held actions would work normally; IIRC a martial artist who dodges in phase X and holds his phase Y action retains the benefit of the dodge until he takes his phase Y action, so the same would apply here.

 

-1/2 seems appropriate to me under the circumstances. If you don't like it, how would you build it?

 

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Trebuchet

Really? Would you permit a martial artist to take "+2 SPD Only for Combat: - ½"? SPD is strictly a combat stat; it is utterly meaningless outside of segmented time.

 

This situation involves a host of questions that need to be answered: Do Continuous Powers such as Force Fields only cost END during "physical" Phases, or during "mental" ones as well? Which Phases are 'physical" and which are "mental"? If the character with this Limitation has a 4 SPD, can she use Phases 3 and 6 as physical, and then 9 and 12 as mental? Can that be changed each turn? What if she does a Block with her body while Ego Blasting with her mind? Is Telekinesis, Flight or Teleport with a mental special effect a mental or physical power? This had better be fully spelled out in advance by the player or GM.

 

I repeat: This was a poorly considered power construct for Menton, and it's poorly conceived for other characters as well. I would not permit it in my campaign.

 

"for combat"? No. "For martial arts maneuvers only"? Maybe. Menton's not alone - Grond has SPD only to punch, but no one's picking on him. [Not that I'd pick on Grond...]

 

The definitions are important, and should be spelled out between player and GM in advance, which makes this a complex construct. To your questions, I would say:

 

(a) Physical is on 6 and 12 - 4 SPD grants phases 3 and 9, so those are "mental only"

 

( Once you take a phase for any other action, the Block ends. You want it to keep going, you forego the extra Speed.

 

© The player can tell me which abilities can be used. I'll tell him how much the limitation is worth based on that.

 

As for Menton, I think he gets a pretty good deal at -1/2. I certainly wouldn't increase it. It bugs me that he can pretty much do everything - his attacks are mental, his defenses are telekinetic/mental force field and he flies using TK. Show me what he CAN'T do in a "mental" phase, besides recover. Maybe he should only get -1/4.

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by Zed-F

There are lots of limitations that are pretty much meaningless outside of segmented time. How about Extra time, takes full phase? Yet we still allow those sorts of limitations on all kinds of powers.

Yes, but a power that takes a full Phase of Extra Time may not activate for two or three segments, depending on the character's SPD. That is a significant penalty in combat; a lot can happen in 2 or 3 seconds in HERO combat.

 

 

-1/2 seems appropriate to me under the circumstances. If you don't like it, how would you build it?

I wouldn't. I would permit a straight +2 SPD, with a duration limitation, or Extra END Cost, or something. I wouldn't allow a limitation for what it can be used for.

 

We have a PC martial artist in our campaign with +1 SPD "Costs END every Phase: -½"; which nearly doubles his END use per Phase. He seldom uses it, but it's available. That's a valid limitation IMHO. YMMV.

[Zed-F]

Yes, but a power that takes a full Phase of Extra Time may not activate for two or three segments, depending on the character's SPD. That is a significant penalty in combat; a lot can happen in 2 or 3 seconds in HERO combat.

That's extra phase, not full phase. Extra phase, it happens at the end of your next phase. Full phase, it happens at the same time it would have otherwise (on your dex in the phase in which you activated it), BUT it takes your full phase and you can't do anything else in that phase (e.g. half-move.)

 

You said,

Really? Would you permit a martial artist to take "+2 SPD Only for Combat: - ½"? SPD is strictly a combat stat; it is utterly meaningless outside of segmented time.

Under most circumstances, a small extra time limitation is similarly pretty meaningless in non-combat time. Especially one like full phase, which doesn't actually have any effect at all on how long it takes to do something -- just on how many things you can do at the same time.

 

I wouldn't. I would permit a straight +2 SPD, with a duration limitation, or Extra END Cost, or something. I wouldn't allow a limitation for what it can be used for.

I guess I wasn't sufficiently clear, I was asking how you would model a character whose mental reaction speed was faster than his physical reaction speed. I suppose you'd just buy a (relatively) high INT and low DEX, without reference to SPD?

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by Zed-F

I guess I wasn't sufficiently clear, I was asking how you would model a character whose mental reaction speed was faster than his physical reaction speed. I suppose you'd just buy a (relatively) high INT and low DEX, without reference to SPD?

Sorry I misunderstood.

 

I'd build such a character a substantially higher EGO than DEX, since EGO substitutes for DEX when figuring who goes first. A character with a 14 DEX and a 23 or 26 EGO will be as quick mentally as most martial artists are physically, but still only slightly above average physically.

 

In any case, it's your game. I'm pretty liberal on what I allow my players, but I wouldn't authorize extra SPD as you described.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Trebuchet

Yes, but a power that takes a full Phase of Extra Time may not activate for two or three segments, depending on the character's SPD. That is a significant penalty in combat; a lot can happen in 2 or 3 seconds in HERO combat.

 

 

I wouldn't. I would permit a straight +2 SPD, with a duration limitation, or Extra END Cost, or something. I wouldn't allow a limitation for what it can be used for.

 

We have a PC martial artist in our campaign with +1 SPD "Costs END every Phase: -½"; which nearly doubles his END use per Phase. He seldom uses it, but it's available. That's a valid limitation IMHO. YMMV.

I'll stick with the -1/2 limitation. I think it's fine. The limitations concerning recovery, including for stunning, and the limitations concerning various other actions such as movement, etc. lead me to believe there isn't a real problem, especially considering that the cost "savings" is going to be 10 points for 3 speed only for mental powers. That may be too much for you but I really don't think that's a gruesome amount of points to save.

 

As for assigning physical and mental phases for speed - that's not too hard. You look at the character's overall speed and assign certain phases as physical and the others as mental on a case by case basis for each character build. It should take less than a minute.

[Trebuchet]

I am shocked, Doug, just shocked! We've never disagreed before!

[Zed-F]

It took me a while to come up with an idea for a SPD-enhancing power (as opposed to just buying extra SPD, which I didn't want to do) but I eventually wound up changing it:

 

from +2 SPD, only for mental actions (-1/2), for 13 RP

 

to +4 SPD, costs END to activate (-1/4), RSR (-0), Side Effect (Flash, AOE, self & environment, -1 1/4) for 16 RP.

 

Does that sound more to your liking?

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by Zed-F

It took me a while to come up with an idea for a SPD-enhancing power (as opposed to just buying extra SPD, which I didn't want to do) but I eventually wound up changing it:

 

from +2 SPD, only for mental actions (-1/2), for 13 RP

 

to +4 SPD, costs END to activate (-1/4), RSR (-0), Side Effect (Flash, AOE, self & environment, -1 1/4) for 16 RP.

 

Does that sound more to your liking?

I'm not certain I understand this construction. The Side Effect is a Flash Area Effect? What's the rationale for the Flash (As opposed to say a STUN or END Drain?)? Is it a visual Flash?

 

If it's visual, then your mentalist is going to get somewhat of a benefit from a Limitation rather than a hindrance. A Visual Flash wouldn't bother a mentalist much (Especially if she has Mind Scan), but it's a potent defense against a visually oriented opponent.

[pinecone]

I guess I'm in the "Not a lim" group...I interpert that limit as "+X speed:only to do the stuff I will be doing all the time anyway..." Just doesn't fit the definition of a lim for me...maybe _1/4 at most...I know for a fact that plenty disagree with that interp though so ,like always if the GM dosen't barf, take the ball and run with it!

[Zed-F]

She doesn't have Mind Scan -- at least, not at this time. She's not a traditional mentalist, she's an electrokineticist. Sight is her only targeting sense. (Mental sense is by default not targeting.)

 

I fully expect to occasionally blind teammates and innocent bystanders as a result of the flash. That will likely happen far more often than blinding enemies, unless something has gone seriously wrong. Her main defense is invisibility, and all her mental powers are IPE or BoECV, so she probably will not be in melee combat to begin with. Moreover, the flash will give her general location away in addition to blinding her. Anyone that does get flashed as a result of her side effect gets the benefit of flash defense, whereas she does not (even if she had any.)