Dominos, mountains & small cars

[Crypt]

WorldsEnd

51 points: (34 active)

Killing Attack - Ranged 1 point, No Normal Defense ([standard]; +1), Does BODY (+1), Area Of Effect (4" Radius; +1), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1), MegaScale AoE (1" = 10,000 km; +1 1/4), Autofire (160 shots; +3), Non-Standard Attack Power (+1) (51 Active Points); No Range (-1/2)

 

 

After re-thinking about it and re-reading some rules it seems the key is that the target may or may not be see as a whole.

 

1. Multiples "separated" parts: (TUB p105) + full BODY excess = +1 cubic hex

If we use the rule in Ultimate Brick page 105, Earth is a very large "boulder" so this is not a whole but a multitude of cubic hexes, each with for instance DEF 5 and BODY 19. So the AoE+Autofire would only do 1 Body 160 times, never overcoming the DEF so Earth would not be destroyed (but an amazing quantity of 0 DEF creatures would suffer.)

In order to destroy Earth the WorldsEnd power should be increased from 1 pipK to 8D6K. It would cost 820 character points.

That's a lot better than 34 (but not very high neither...)

 

 

2. Multiples "linked" parts: (Dominos) Walls (H5R p449), large Vehicles (TUV p188, option), Bases (???)

IMHO, The "wall" rule (+1 excess BODY = X2 hexes) seems to be made for "domino" structures where the destruction of a part bring successive destruction of adjacents parts.

 

 

3. A whole:

The BODY of characters, vehicles and "small" items.

 

 

4. ????? +1 BODY excess = +1 hex : large vehicles ?... again....

This is from Ultimate brick, p 104.

 

 

What is the right version for bases ? Version 2, the "domino" ? (H5R p465 "Because a bases's Body spreads out over a large area, a base's walls start with only 2 BODY and their Size does not affect this.") , Version 1 ?

 

What is the Version 4 supposed to be used for ? Was it a mistake ?

 

 

 

 

That's quite confusing......i'm lost Are there clear, official and definitive rules somewhere ? (i'd prefer clear rules rather than a "as you like it" no-rule.)

 

 

 

May you please write the correct Version number in front of :

Vehicles:

Large Vehicles:

Bases:

Items :

Very large items:

etc.... (what is a very large item ? something whose size is greater than 1 cubic hex ?)

 

 

horrible...

[ghost-angel]

Re: Dominos, mountains & small cars

 

No, there aren't clear rules. And that's good.

 

Because HERO doesn't model one game. It let's you model lot's of games.

 

For a Science Fiction game with Planet Nukes and Death Stars you can use Hero to treat a planet as a single object. For Space Opera it may mean you can try and blow up a planet, but it's modeled as bunches of cubic hexes so you can bombard a planet with a lot of damage and still leave the planet behind...

 

For Galactic Champions, you can do the same or treat them as very large ships with both a whole and sectional parts.

 

For a standard Champions with doomsday devices that can still threaten the whole planet it may be better to treat it as a series of Megascaled Hexes.

 

It all depends on what you want from the System.

 

Let other games say "This is how a planet works" -- Hero says "And here's a couple ways to model a planet."

Reason From Special Effect

[Crypt]

Re: Dominos, mountains & small cars

 

It all depends on what you want from the System.

 

to be consistent...

[Crypt]

Re: Dominos, mountains & small cars

 

but well, in your opinion what could be the various correct versions numbers if i want a believable campaign ? (= somewhat realistic)

[ghost-angel]

Re: Dominos, mountains & small cars

 

The system is completely consistent within the context of any given Game.

 

The System is not your babysitter. You have to decide how a game works and model it.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Dominos, mountains & small cars

 

Define "believable"

 

Here:

 

55D6 RKA; Area Of Effect Megascale 1" = 100km

 

That should do it.

[Crypt]

Re: Dominos, mountains & small cars

 

The System is not your babysitter. You have to decide how a game works and model it.

 

the very easy answer, isn't it ?

 

i see.

[Crypt]

Re: Dominos, mountains & small cars

 

Define "believable"

 

Here:

 

55D6 RKA; Area Of Effect Megascale 1" = 100km

 

That should do it.

 

 

 

I only asked about the various versions of breaking things.

I'm sure you know what i meant when i said "believable"...

[OSAT]

Re: Dominos, mountains & small cars

 

After re-thinking about it and re-reading some rules it seems the key is that the target may or may not be see as a whole.

 

1. Multiples "separated" parts: (TUB p105) + full BODY excess = +1 cubic hex

If we use the rule in Ultimate Brick page 105, Earth is a very large "boulder" so this is not a whole but a multitude of cubic hexes, each with for instance DEF 5 and BODY 19. So the AoE+Autofire would only do 1 Body 160 times, never overcoming the DEF so Earth would not be destroyed (but an amazing quantity of 0 DEF creatures would suffer.)

In order to destroy Earth the WorldsEnd power should be increased from 1 pipK to 8D6K. It would cost 820 character points.

That's a lot better than 34 (but not very high neither...)

 

 

2. Multiples "linked" parts: (Dominos) Walls (H5R p449), large Vehicles (TUV p188, option), Bases (???)

IMHO, The "wall" rule (+1 excess BODY = X2 hexes) seems to be made for "domino" structures where the destruction of a part bring successive destruction of adjacents parts.

 

 

3. A whole:

The BODY of characters, vehicles and "small" items.

 

 

4. ????? +1 BODY excess = +1 hex : large vehicles ?... again....

This is from Ultimate brick, p 104.

 

 

What is the right version for bases ? Version 2, the "domino" ? (H5R p465 "Because a bases's Body spreads out over a large area, a base's walls start with only 2 BODY and their Size does not affect this.") , Version 1 ?

 

What is the Version 4 supposed to be used for ? Was it a mistake ?

 

 

 

 

That's quite confusing......i'm lost Are there clear, official and definitive rules somewhere ? (i'd prefer clear rules rather than a "as you like it" no-rule.)

 

 

 

May you please write the correct Version number in front of :

Vehicles:

Large Vehicles:

Bases:

Items :

Very large items:

etc.... (what is a very large item ? something whose size is greater than 1 cubic hex ?)

 

 

horrible...

 

Unfortunately you seemed to have missed the fact that this is an NND (not a planet) and so the DEF of the planet isn't taken into account

[Crypt]

Re: Dominos, mountains & small cars

 

Unfortunately you seemed to have missed the fact that this is an NND (not a planet) and so the DEF of the planet isn't taken into account

 

[ghost-angel]

Re: Dominos, mountains & small cars

 

Unfortunately you seemed to have missed the fact that this is an NND (not a planet) and so the DEF of the planet isn't taken into account

 

You cannot use "Not being something" as the definition of a Defense for NND.

 

Sorry. doesn't work.

 

 

 

And no, I wasn't kidding about "what's believable" - there's a thread in the NGD about a woman's bra stopping a bullet.

 

Believable in a fictional context is a lot more nebulous than gamer's give it mark for. Different people have different views of exactly what is believable.

 

I would model a planet, assuming I needed to, as both a collection of cubic hexes and a single large object and use whichever made more sense at the time given the context of the action and dramatic sense.

 

And no, "the system is not your babysitter" is not the Easy answer.

 

It's the correct answer. I have 7 active characters in 7 campaigns, 7 different gaming groups. All of them Hero and several of the characters are not even remotely compatible with each other and couldn't possibly be in the same game.

 

Each Game on its own, in its own context.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Dominos, mountains & small cars

 

Supporting G-A's position.

 

The real question, the only question that matters, is:

 

 

How easy or hard do you want it to be to destroy a planet in your campaign?

 

 

The effect is destroy planet, the context is your campaign. The mechanic is what do you want it to be?

 

 

Personally, I'd rather it be extremely difficult to destroy an entire planet in the vast majority of games. Planets are pretty important things in most campaigns and there's generally not a surplus of them laying around (in fact, there's usually just one planet of any significance to the campaign), such that breaking one is a trivial thing. The only venue in which it would be of reduced importance is settings where there are lots of viable / significant planets and thus the importance of any particular one is of lessened importance. HERO's supports either type of campaign in theory.

 

 

It's all relative.

 

 

 

And as an aside, a) G-A is correct in pointing out that NND "Not a Something" is bogus; I personally don't agree with the way penetrating works vs inanimate objects and rule that inanimate objects have infinite hardened to resist penetrating; it solves cheesy foci-buster scenarios, and 1 pip Armageddons.

 

 

And finally, there's no point in getting snippy w/ G-A. He's trying to help you; just because you don't get the answers you want / expect, don't snap at the people trying to give you the right answer.

[rauer]

Re: Dominos, mountains & small cars

 

It all depends on what you want from the System

 

to be consistent...

 

I think they key is seeing HERO as a way to model multiple systems. Rather than deciding for you, HERO gives you, as the GM and 'world creator', some options for how you want things to work in your System that you base on the HERO guidelines.

 

The individual GM instills the consistency, if I correctly understand what you are looking for.

[mattingly]

Re: Dominos, mountains & small cars

 

EB 1d6; OIF ("The Earth", Expendable, 1 Charge, Charge Does Not Recover)

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Dominos, mountains & small cars

 

Why even pay points for it?

 

Dark Secret: Man Who Destroyed The World, Small Group, Extreme; -10 points

 

Its written on the sheet, got points and everything, so it must have already happened before play started. Baaaahd TIE-mean!curry>

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuKudT1bM68

 

Embedding is off, but you can clik the link. 56 seconds in.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Dominos, mountains & small cars

 

Now you guys are just being silly. . .

 

 

 

. . .

 

 

 

 

(alright, I'm jealous I didn't think of either first)

[Crypt]

Re: Dominos, mountains & small cars

 

I think they key is seeing HERO as a way to model multiple systems. Rather than deciding for you, HERO gives you, as the GM and 'world creator', some options for how you want things to work in your System that you base on the HERO guidelines.

 

The individual GM instills the consistency, if I correctly understand what you are looking for.

 

 

Yes, but there is one thing Hero does not allow = Easy realism.

Scales mixing and logarithms mixed to linearity make it impossible. But well, that's very general and in the end a bit off-topic

 

 

 

Believable in a fictional context is a lot more nebulous than gamer's give it mark for. Different people have different views of exactly what is believable.

 

"scientifically believable for a person with some basic scientific education" (mainly Physics)

 

That's what i need.

In your opinion what would be the versions numbers for this kind of campaign mood ?

 

The fact that there are different kinds of "Body" does not help the "as you like it" way of seeing the campaign world's "laws"

 

 

I would model a planet, assuming I needed to, as both a collection of cubic hexes and a single large object and use whichever made more sense at the time given the context of the action and dramatic sense.

 

i'd prefer not improvising rules in-game.

 

 

And finally, there's no point in getting snippy w/ G-A. He's trying to help you; just because you don't get the answers you want / expect, don't snap at the people trying to give you the right answer.

 

i'm not snippy, i'm in distress.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Dominos, mountains & small cars

 

I don't know enough about your game to help you model how a planet should work.

 

what's the genre?

Do you expect to be blowing up planets?

How easily?

With what kind of weapon? conventional? science-fiction?

From the inside or the outside?

 

I've never seen or heard of anyone causing an already formed planet to explode so there is no scientific basis I can use to go to and model from. Ergo there is no, by your definition, believable context to draw from.

 

I already told you:

 

55D6 Killing Attack, Area Of Effect Megascale 1" = 100km

 

That's as generic an answer as I can give to help someone blow up a planet. If you don't like it oh well.

[Crypt]

Re: Dominos, mountains & small cars

 

I've never seen or heard of anyone causing an already formed planet to explode so there is no scientific basis I can use to go to and model from. Ergo there is no, by your definition, believable context to draw from.

 

There are scientific basis and several ways to do this, at least in theory.

For instance a massive enough meteor could do it. The equations are well known and precise. Science is a bit more than gamer's beliefs.

 

 

but please, don't focus on planets, and i did not asked about power crafting, i did not ask how to make a planet killer power, i only asked about the body rules.

 

This is about everything. Bases, vehicles, mountains, doors, walls, small or large versions of each and yes, planets, + everything else.

 

There are a least 4 differents versions of interpreting BODY excess damage and 2 or more ways of interpreting what BODY is (spreaded in parts or the representation of a whole.)

 

but well, nevermind, nobody seems to be able to say how to make this milk-shake useful in a "realistic" campaign so i won't instist.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Dominos, mountains & small cars

 

Don't cop an attitude with me because the System doesn't just give you an answer.

 

How Body a Person has is open to interpretation, much less a Planet. Wha'ts the predominant atom type in the planet? is it dense? gas giant? small? large? How large?

 

How easy or hard do you want it to be to break and/or destroy within the context of your games power level?

 

I play in two campaigns, one where a basic pistol does 1.5D6K and one where is does 2d6+1K. You can bet that were the GMs of these two campaigns to need to model a Planet they would take into account the basic power levels they have set as baselines.

 

There is no magic formula to create "realistic" planets; aside from the one listed in Star Hero that takes a decent jab at it. Go use that one.

It's the one I would use if I wanted to make "realistic" planets. But it seems you don't like that one making our two definitions of "realistic" not the same - wow, just like I said. . . .

[Sean Waters]

Re: Dominos, mountains & small cars

 

There are issues with Body which I would like to see clarified. The 'WorldsEnd' power at the top of this thread was meant to illustrate how eaily you can 'legally' destroy the planet in Hero - but of course it is only in some places in Hero that a Planet Body of 86 is acknowledged, in other bits of Hero you have spaceships with multi-hundred Body, so go figure.

 

I don't see defining one or the other as standard Hero takes away from the ability of Hero to simulate almost anything: I mean who in their right mind would allow the WorldsEnd power anyway? And any attack that can actually do 86 Body to a target is so far out of the realms of even the most extreme superhero games that there is little point in worrying about it.

 

However...why leave it that wooly? Sure blowing up a planet is reasonably pointless, but Body is confusing in many ways: how can a human have up to 20 Body? What is a Body?

 

In some ways Hero expounds an exponential scale (see growth and density increase powers and the rules for blowing holes in walls) and in others it expounds a linear scale - or some sort of linear exponential lovechild.

 

You can not have a system where you roll for damage for a 4d6KA and get a result in the 4-24 range and think you are dealing with exponentials; you're not. That's one reason for prefering normal attacks (or at least the mechanic) if you lean toward exponential damage progression - at least the Body damage sticks closer to the average value.

 

I've suggested an alternative killing attack mechanic that doesn't have that kind of variation, but it does tend to be quite nasty and rather all or nothing: either that attack will bounce off your defences or you take all (or almost all) of the damge as if you had no defences. It's an accurate enough way to simulate an exponential notion of damage, but it would require a fundamental change int he way a lot of people play. I mean, it works, but it changes a lot of preconceptions for a lot of people.

 

One quick fix for large Body objects is to treat them as a series of smaller objects with the size of the object 'scaled' to the size of the attack, or treat high Body as providing additional DEF (say every point of Body in excess of the attack Body+10 is counted as +1 DEF).

 

Whilst Hero's great strength is the ability to cover an enormous range of genres, ideas and playstyles, that very flexibility has lead to a diverse set of assumptions about how the system works. I'm not suggesting my system is right, but I'm the sort who would like an answer to the question 'How many Body does the planet Earth have?' that does not start 'Well...'

 

A consistent approach does not necessarily limit the options or the ways in which you can play the game - but it would mean a lot of people having to re-jig campaign assumptions they have been working with for a quarter of a century - and that is never going to be a popular move.

 

So by all means come up with a solution for those who want consistency and share certain base assumptions about how the game works but don't expect universal acclaim for your efforts - although there will certainly be those who do appreciate the hard work

[Sean Waters]

Re: Dominos, mountains & small cars

 

The system is completely consistent within the context of any given Game.

 

The System is not your babysitter. You have to decide how a game works and model it.

 

I have to disagree there. We ignore the inconsistencies within the context of any given game, but they are so deep rooted you cannot reconcile them completely without leaving out some pretty big bits of game foundation. It is no wonder that it drives some people mad.

 

I also believe that the system, whilst agreeing it is not a babysitter, has to make its mind up how it works. Well, it doesn't have to, of course, but it would be a better system if it did have consistent principles.

[Crypt]

Re: Dominos, mountains & small cars

 

Don't cop an attitude with me because the System doesn't just give you an answer.

 

 

Sorry.

[Crypt]

Re: Dominos, mountains & small cars

 

I also believe that the system' date=' whilst agreeing it is not a babysitter, has to make its mind up how it works. Well, it doesn't have to, of course, but it would be a better system if it did have consistent principles.[/quote']

 

yes, something less paradoxal than "this is a marvellous system because you may modify it."