I know what you are getting for Christmas (I've felt your presence)

[Sean Waters]

PRE attacks have always worried me: they are potentially very useful, very flexible but potentially horribly over effective. They need, IMO, reigning in a bit and defining a bit. Here’s some suggestions. A lot of what is here is RAW already, but it adds a bit, hopefully.

These rules apply equally to PCs and NPCs.

A PRE attack is basically a way to change the emotional state of a target or targets quickly. That is basically it: you can make someone fear you, hate you, love you or respect you. What it absolutely and categorically does not do is allow you to dictate what the target does as a result. You can influence that with subsequent social interaction skill use but all a PRE attack does is puts a target into a particular emotional state.

The level of success that you manage determines how strongly that emotional state is expressed.

One issue that I have with PRE attacks is that they are blunt tools: you need +10 to change the level of effect (after attaining PRE/EGO) and that is, on average about +3d6 or 15 active points. It would be nice to have a bit more differentiation.

When attempting a social skill on a target you DO NOT get a bonus for a successful PRE attack – that would be counting PRE twice, if you think about it – but a successful PRE attack acts as a passport for certain ‘levels of influence’.

Also the modifiers are a bit difficult to apply sometimes because there are a lot of them and they tend to have a bit of overlap and most of them are judgement calls anyway. I’d cut them down to three different modifiers only: personal factors, target factors and situational factors.

Personal factors might include such things as a good (or bad) soliloquy, personal emotional state (if you genuinely are angry and barely held in check after seeing one of your team mates downed, you will come across as that much more intense. Personal factors can also include your own psychological or other disadvantages and perks, like reputation and even looks. These factors vary from +4 to -4 and can never more than double your base PRE (there is no minimum though). You should apply +0d6 unless there is clear reason to do otherwise.

Target factors include their starting emotional state, their own disadvantages and any information or beliefs that they may have. That has the same range as personal factors (+4d6 to -4d6) but is not limited to 2xPRE or anything like that – again the general applicable modifier will be +0d6.

Situational modifiers include such things as whether the target is outnumbered/outgunned – or whether you are – if you are taking advantage of something that just happened (the tank behind you explodes and you turn with a grin to the VIPER agents – “You’re next...”). Again the range is +4d6 to -4d6.

That gives you a range of -12d6 to +12d6, which is plenty, frankly, and it should be rare indeed that you reach the more extreme ends of that spectrum – really only when you have, for example, powerful rep working for you and powerful disadvantages working against them and

Less than PRE – unaffected or even negatively affected – an intimidation attempt that does not make it to PRE is likely to get you laughed at.

PRE – the target will notice you and be open to a social skill attempt – so long as there are no negative modifiers

Each +5 on the PRE attack allows you to attempt a social skill to influence the target with a -1 modifier on your chance of succeeding, so if you manage PRE+20 you can attempt a social skill where you are at -4.

Each +10 (in addition to the above effect) allows you to ‘overcome’ a level of psych lim (moderate at +10, strong at +20 pr total ay +30). If you do not ‘beat’ the psych lim level then the target can simply ignore your suggestion.

In addition the GM will decide how the target is affected if they remain undirected: someone put in great fear may run, cower or even attack (although generally at a penalty to OCV, DCV or both) as determined by the GM. Very often, even if you successfully influence someone with a social skill, they may act somewhat unpredictably or not at full efficiency as they are so emotionally affected.

The change of emotional state brought about by a PRE attack may last a very short time or quite a long time but that is determined by the situation rather than the level of effect: if Grond terrifies you, you’ll probably remain terrified whilst Grond is still threatening you.

Generally people are only good at one type of PRE attack – you might be scary or you might be sexy but you are unlikely to be both. PRE, like everything else in Hero, has to have sfx. You can use your PRE at half value for other types of PRE attack than the one you are good at. In addition you can buy your PRE with the variable sfx advantage or you can buy additional PRE sfx individually at +3 points (so to have a 15 PRE which you can use to scare or seduce costs +5 points for the PRE and +3 points for the second sfx. If you want to make someone respect you, for example, then you use PRE/2, or 8 PRE)

[Alibear]

Re: I know what you are getting for Christmas (I've felt your presence)

 

I've worried about high presence for years. A 60 presence hero sends my alarm bells ringing like no other 50 point power.

[secretID]

Re: I know what you are getting for Christmas (I've felt your presence)

 

I think PRE attacks are a mess. At high levels, PRE is the most effective characteristic. And it's never made sense to me that PRE defends against PRE.

[Vulcan]

Re: I know what you are getting for Christmas (I've felt your presence)

 

I've always thought that Presence attacks were one of the coolest things about the HERO System. Of course they can be abused, but really, how many things are there in the system that can't be abused when taken to extremes? Could it stand some cleaning up? Sure. Is it still one of the coolest things about the system? You bet!

 

As to the OP: Way cool idea, Sean. I'm going to bounce that off my current GM and see if we can work it into our current game.

[secretID]

Re: I know what you are getting for Christmas (I've felt your presence)

 

My first comment wasn't very productive. I think PRE should be capped (as a crude fix) and I think it should only be offensive, but those are outside of Sean's points, which, as usual, are great.

[schir1964]

Re: I know what you are getting for Christmas (I've felt your presence)

 

The basic premise of the PRE Attack is the ability of the character to convince others that they can do what they claim they can do (whatever that may be... kill/win/lead/etc) by being impressive in some fashion.

 

How does the character be impressive?

The current rules allows acts of power to boost this impressiveness which may be defended against with PRE (Possibly EGO).

 

Herein lies the problem (balance wise).

 

1) You have an attack (No Max Range, Area Of Effect, Indirect - Hearing Group) that does not have to be purchased to be effective and is variable in strength and use (based on what the attacker does and whatever power they choose to employ).

 

2) The defense is PRE/EGO (Static Value).

 

3) The effect of a successful attack results in the target being convinced of whatever the attacker has claimed and reacts accordingly on that belief.

 

A solution to the balance problem would be to allow the target's maximum power level to act as a defense modifier against the attack. This makes sense since if an attacker tries to convince a target to surrender or suffer by blowing up a bus, but the target can blow up a building then the target should not find the attacker's claim convincing at all (given that both characters have the same PRE value).

 

So while Sean's idea can work (the mechanic is applied equally/consistently to everyone and is thus balanced in that manner) I still don't like the effect aspect of the mechanic in general.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: I know what you are getting for Christmas (I've felt your presence)

 

I think PRE attacks are a mess. At high levels' date=' PRE is the most effective characteristic. And it's never made sense to me that PRE defends against PRE.[/quote']

 

Presence includes courage and confidence, and sense of self. Therefore, it makes perfect sense to me that the stat that governs your bravery protects you against people trying to intimidate you or manipulate you.

[secretID]

Re: I know what you are getting for Christmas (I've felt your presence)

 

Christopher's idea is interesting. What about:

- PRE (or whatever it gets called) is only for offense, and only for intimidation/inspiration

- base defense against PRE comes from total character points, or something like that (characteristics + powers?), and EGO adds more

- seduction-type PRE is completely independent, and uses COM/charisma/whatever

 

Meh - I get the impression others have spent a lot more time thinking about this than I'm willing to, so I should shut up. I missed the boat on 6E discussions, and that's probably a good thing.

[Klaus Mogensen]

Re: I know what you are getting for Christmas (I've felt your presence)

 

A PRE attack is basically a way to change the emotional state of a target or targets quickly. That is basically it: you can make someone fear you' date=' hate you, love you or respect you. [b']What it absolutely and categorically does not do is allow you to dictate what the target does as a result.[/b] You can influence that with subsequent social interaction skill use but all a PRE attack does is puts a target into a particular emotional state.

(My emphasis).

This seems like a free pass for players to just ignore PRE attacks against them.

 

GM: "Great Chthulhu's grandfather is rising in front of you, tearing apart the tiger tanks the military had lined up to fight him. He's gobbling up all the people he can get his unwholesome tentacles on, with gore running in rivers down his gibbering body. Now he's turning his baleful eyes in your direction!" (Rolls PRE attack) "Effect 236 vs. your 3 PRE - you've never been that afraid before; you're about to die from fright."

 

Player: "I collect my courage and keep disarming the ticking bomb in front of me with a steady hand."

 

- Klaus

 

- Klaus

[bigbywolfe]

Re: I know what you are getting for Christmas (I've felt your presence)

 

2) The only defense is PRE (Static Value).

 

Um, what about EGO?

[Sean Waters]

Re: I know what you are getting for Christmas (I've felt your presence)

 

(My emphasis).

This seems like a free pass for players to just ignore PRE attacks against them.

 

GM: "Great Chthulhu's grandfather is rising in front of you, tearing apart the tiger tanks the military had lined up to fight him. He's gobbling up all the people he can get his unwholesome tentacles on, with gore running in rivers down his gibbering body. Now he's turning his baleful eyes in your direction!" (Rolls PRE attack) "Effect 236 vs. your 3 PRE - you've never been that afraid before; you're about to die from fright."

 

Player: "I collect my courage and keep disarming the ticking bomb in front of me with a steady hand."

 

- Klaus

 

- Klaus

 

I could have been clearer there. What it doesn;'t do is allow the target to determine what effect it has. The PRE attacker can determine what emotional/mental state the target will be in if the PRE attack is successful but NOT how they will react to that. They are, however, still in that state. They can not simply ignore the fact that they are terrified and trembling, if Great Cthulu suddenly appears in front of them. They will take pebalties (probably massive ones) to thei 'Disarm Bomb' attempt, but a PRE attack in itself will not cause them to do something specific. They ARE open to further direction, which is why a subsequent interaction skill may succeed in giving them specific direction.

 

For example, Hulk lands in front of Jane Doh, roaring, and she is hit with a PRE attack. She is terrified. She can do anything that someone who is terrrified might - so long as she is actually role playing terror: she could stand, cower, run, hide...even attack Hulk, but such an attack would be wild and visceral - and probably at massive penalties.

 

A while later, Thor lands in front of Jane Doh, with similar effect: she is terrified. However, rather than just roaring, Thor tells her to get away from the area and take cover. Assuming he makes a successful Persuasion (or meaybe Oratory) roll, she will comply. The PRE attack has acted as an enabler for direction.

[schir1964]

Re: I know what you are getting for Christmas (I've felt your presence)

 

Um' date=' what about EGO?[/quote']

I know that EGO or PRE can be used to resist a mental attack, but I thought a PRE attack could only be defended against with PRE. Or have I got them reversed?

 

Even so, EGO or PRE are still static values.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: I know what you are getting for Christmas (I've felt your presence)

 

... They can not simply ignore the fact that they are terrified and trembling' date=' if Great Cthulu suddenly appears in front of them. [b']They will take penalties (probably massive ones) to their 'Disarm Bomb' attempt[/b], but a PRE attack in itself will not cause them to do something specific...

Okay, I now see where you are going with this.

 

Basically you are imposing penalties on the target if they don't react in accordance to the attacker's wishes/will/command. They still get to react, but if they react in discordance then they suffer the penalties to whatever they are attempting.

 

This effect can already be achieved with the existing rules.

 

Presence Attack: Change Environment (Limitation: Target's PRE/3 Penalty vs Attack Roll, Limitation: Non-Selective Targets, Variable Limitation: Has No Effect vs Condition)

 

More elegant, defined, and flexible than the current PRE Attack mechanic. I wouldn't have a problem with players purchasing the mechanic above. It is balanced and consistent with the rest of the rules.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Sean Waters]

Re: I know what you are getting for Christmas (I've felt your presence)

 

Christopher's idea is interesting. What about:

- PRE (or whatever it gets called) is only for offense, and only for intimidation/inspiration

- base defense against PRE comes from total character points, or something like that (characteristics + powers?), and EGO adds more

- seduction-type PRE is completely independent, and uses COM/charisma/whatever

 

Meh - I get the impression others have spent a lot more time thinking about this than I'm willing to, so I should shut up. I missed the boat on 6E discussions, and that's probably a good thing.

 

I largely avoided the 6th ed boat - I have an occasionally unfortunate rep as a bit 'out there' and I fear that suggestions might have started several points down because they came from a certain quarter so I started discussions here and suggested, when people expressed an interest, that THEY posted them in 6th.

 

I don't seem to be able to stop

 

As for seduction PRE being separate - well - I'd suggest that PRE, like other abilities, should have sfx - and if your sfx is 'sexy' then you are going to be good at seduction, less so at intimidation (well, most intimidation ).

[Sean Waters]

Re: I know what you are getting for Christmas (I've felt your presence)

 

Okay, I now see where you are going with this.

 

Basically you are imposing penalties on the target if they don't react in accordance to the attacker's wishes/will/command. They still get to react, but if they react in discordance then they suffer the penalties to whatever they are attempting.

 

This effect can already be achieved with the existing rules.

 

Presence Attack: Change Environment (Limitation: Target's PRE/3 Penalty vs Attack Roll, Limitation: Non-Selective Targets, Variable Limitation: Has No Effect vs Condition)

 

More elegant, defined, and flexible than the current PRE Attack mechanic. I wouldn't have a problem with players purchasing the mechanic above. It is balanced and consistent with the rest of the rules.

 

- Christopher Mullins

 

 

I'm not sure it would take on all the nuance it could - there is a penalty tot eh attack roll, but the effect would be fixed, and would not take into account psychological and other factors that a straight PRE attack can easily incorporate. Whilst you could build it to take that all into consideration I'm not sure how elegant it would look by the end of the process

[schir1964]

Re: I know what you are getting for Christmas (I've felt your presence)

 

I'm not sure it would take on all the nuance it could - there is a penalty tot eh attack roll' date=' but the effect would be fixed, and would not take into account psychological and other factors that a straight PRE attack can easily incorporate. Whilst you could build it to take that all into consideration I'm not sure how elegant it would look by the end of the process [/quote']

Those other "nuances" would appropriately fall under the classification of situational modifiers, but that is just my take on it. I understand that codifying all those modifiers would be impractical, but that is no different than how the "conditional" limitation guidelines are handled now. It was just a thought.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[torchwolf]

Re: I know what you are getting for Christmas (I've felt your presence)

 

D'uh!

 

 

Should have read this thread before I posted my notes on PRE Attacks, under

Rules Question: variant types of damage?

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72869