Sub-Zero's Ice Clones

[LivesByTheSword]

I started writing an ice ninja character for a new game that my gm was going to run, and I'm having trouble with making this power AND it fitting in 50 active points. I'm sure that there is a combination of things I need to do to get it to do what I want. Which is to make a life size clone of myself that freezes opponents if they touch(attack) but I'm having signifigant problems doing this. Any help would be much appreciated.

[Alibear]

Re: Sub-Zero's Ice Clones

 

What you're really looking for is the effect. In what way does the clone freeze the target? What does being frozen do?

[Zed-F]

Re: Sub-Zero's Ice Clones

 

If you make a clone and it automatically attempts to freeze the target exactly once, succeed or fail, then that's the SFX of an attack. It could for instance be an entangle or a EB.

 

If you make a clone and it just sits there until something touches it, then does the above, then it's probably an attack with the trigger advantage.

 

If you make a clone and it follows someone around, trying to touch them, but can be shot at and destroyed before it gets to actually do so, the most straightforward approach is to use Summon.

 

If you make a clone and it follows someone around freezing them, but can't be destroyed except by one fairly obvious means (e.g. introducing your frozen clone to heat/fire) then you may be looking at an uncontrolled continuous attack.

[nexus]

Re: Sub-Zero's Ice Clones

 

IIRC, Sub-Zero's ice clones are basically booby traps. If you touch them in the game your target is frozen in place as if they'd been hit by one of his Freeze Blasts.

 

The simplest mechanical way to represent this, IMO, would be an Entangle with Physical Manifestation (Ice Statue), Trigger: When Manifestation is touched and possible AE: 1 Hex accurate (target the person that set it off) to avoid any "hit roll" issues. There's probably more mechanical wrinkles but as a GM I'd be willing to handwave them, but check with yours.

 

The problem I see with this is that, in an rpg environment its not going to be very effective. In the video game you can create when your target can't avoid it (they're jumping for example) or it sets of up a hazard on one part of the screen that your opponent has to deal with because its limited to 2d.

 

In a rpg fight, movement is less restricted to the Ice Clone would be easier to avoid so its uses would be more limited than it's final cost might reflect particularly if you are trying to fit in under 50 ap.

[nexus]

Re: Sub-Zero's Ice Clones

 

Alternatively, a really roundabout way to do handle it would be to use Summon to create mindless, immobile, perfectly loyal automaton that just stood there waiting for someone to touch it and set off its Entangle Dmg Sheild which destroys/banishes it instantly until its "Summoned" again. The creature would be pretty cheap (most of its characteristics are nonexistent, it has no skills and only one power with 1 charge) unfortunately in the RAW it's many Disadvantages wouldn't reduce its cost any.

 

It's not so weird since there are canonical examples of "attacks" built this way: some super smart missiles and the homage to Darkseid's Omega beams in one supplement.

[Ice9]

Re: Sub-Zero's Ice Clones

 

Given the way HERO combat works (3D battlefield, reflexes aren't a factor), a traditional Ice Clone isn't going to prove that effective. However, with a variation on Nexus's build, you can have something fairly useful:

Entangle 2d6, 3 DEF, Trigger (attacked in melee), AoE Hex Accurate, Takes No Damage from Cold

 

Once your trigger is set, the next time someone attacks you, you put an ice clone right in their path, forcing them to hit it and get frozen. The Entangle isn't very strong, but it'll stop that attack, and probably give you a shot at them while they're entangled (0 DCV, and your cold attacks won't break it for them).

 

 

Now if you want to make it more potent (maybe too potent), change it to this:

Entangle 2d6, Trigger (attacked in melee, automatically resets), AoE Hex Accurate, Takes No Damage from Cold

 

Now everyone who attacks you in melee will get flash-frozen.

[nexus]

Re: Sub-Zero's Ice Clones

 

That's a pretty cool idea (no pun intended)!

 

I'm not sure if the it would stop the attack itself as a Dmg Shield though. Maybe link several DCV levels to it to simulate jumping out of the way? If the attack hits still the character didn't form the clone fast enough.

 

Edit: I guess you could throw a no range limited force wall into the build too "hitting the ice clone instead of me"

[The Main Man]

Re: Sub-Zero's Ice Clones

 

Entangle 3d6, 3 DEF, Trigger (Character Dodges Out of Target's Way; +1/4), Uncontrolled (+1/2); No Range (-1/2), Physical Manifestation (-1/4)

 

30 Base Points

52 Active Points

30 Real Points

 

Basically, that move was used so that when the opponent charges at Sub-Zero he can move out of the way and briefly leave an ice clone in his place.

 

This should model it nicely.

[nexus]

Re: Sub-Zero's Ice Clones

 

Entangle 3d6, 3 DEF, Trigger (Character Dodges Out of Target's Way; +1/4), Uncontrolled (+1/2); No Range (-1/2), Physical Manifestation (-1/4)

 

30 Base Points

52 Active Points

30 Real Points

 

Basically, that move was used so that when the opponent charges at Sub-Zero he can move out of the way and briefly leave an ice clone in his place.

 

This should model it nicely.

 

I like this one best, I think. Nice work

[The Main Man]

Re: Sub-Zero's Ice Clones

 

Come to think of it, I had never really considered how seemingly complex that power actually was.

 

And then I go and write up something reasonable, so I'll call it even.

[LivesByTheSword]

Re: Sub-Zero's Ice Clones

 

Entangle 3d6, 3 DEF, Trigger (Character Dodges Out of Target's Way; +1/4), Uncontrolled (+1/2); No Range (-1/2), Physical Manifestation (-1/4)

 

30 Base Points

52 Active Points

30 Real Points

 

Basically, that move was used so that when the opponent charges at Sub-Zero he can move out of the way and briefly leave an ice clone in his place.

 

This should model it nicely.

 

Thanks for the imput. But I'm slightly confused about how this works. I don't actually own a copy of FRed, so I don't understand some of the advantages and such.

[The Main Man]

Re: Sub-Zero's Ice Clones

 

Thanks for the imput. But I'm slightly confused about how this works. I don't actually own a copy of FRed' date=' so I don't understand some of the advantages and such.[/quote']

 

1. The "Ice Clone" move was meant for freezing your opponent when retreating, so when they pursued you, they had to think fast.

 

The Trigger Power Advantage should model this nicely, as it makes the power activate under optimal conditions: when you are dodging the opponent's attacks.

 

2. The Ice Clone only ever lasted a few seconds, which ties into... oh dear, I forgot to add the Continuous (+1) advantage!

 

That adjusts the cost to:

30 Base Points

82 Active Points

47 Real Points

 

So like I was saying, the Uncontrolled Advantage allows you to put as much (or as little) END to sustain the effect for as long as you want, or if someone melts it.

 

3. The limitations should speak for themselves.

[Zed-F]

Re: Sub-Zero's Ice Clones

 

I don't really think you need the continuous or uncontrolled. You should just need the trigger. If you want it so that the character can use the power without spending actions/time to reset, that's a higher level of trigger advantage, not a continuous/uncontrolled combination. Continuous/uncontrolled are for powers that can affect an opponent repeatedly over time.

[The Main Man]

Re: Sub-Zero's Ice Clones

 

The Ice Clone lingers on for several seconds after activation, during which time Sub-Zero himself can touch it and become frozen.

 

The combined effect of Uncontrolled (Continuous is thusly implied) and Physical Manifestation provides an ice clone that lingers for several seconds before melting away.

 

Only having a higher-level Trigger takes that effect away.

[Fearghus]

Re: Sub-Zero's Ice Clones

 

If you make a clone and it automatically attempts to freeze the target exactly once, succeed or fail, then that's the SFX of an attack. It could for instance be an entangle or a EB.

 

If you make a clone and it just sits there until something touches it, then does the above, then it's probably an attack with the trigger advantage.

 

If you make a clone and it follows someone around, trying to touch them, but can be shot at and destroyed before it gets to actually do so, the most straightforward approach is to use Summon.

 

If you make a clone and it follows someone around freezing them, but can't be destroyed except by one fairly obvious means (e.g. introducing your frozen clone to heat/fire) then you may be looking at an uncontrolled continuous attack.

 

Yeah what he said. My first thought was summon because I assumed you wanted to be able to create an ice version of your character that would fight along side. If it's a trap like thing though just a power with a trigger.

[Zed-F]

Re: Sub-Zero's Ice Clones

 

The Ice Clone lingers on for several seconds after activation, during which time Sub-Zero himself can touch it and become frozen.

 

The combined effect of Uncontrolled (Continuous is thusly implied) and Physical Manifestation provides an ice clone that lingers for several seconds before melting away.

 

Only having a higher-level Trigger takes that effect away.

 

My point is that a trigger with a higher level (and physical manifestation) is better for an attack that works once. If it were continuous and uncontrolled, it would attack everyone that touched it for the duration of its existence. If the ice clone disappears the first time it is touched, then it should just be Entangle, Trigger (possibly greater than +1/4), Physical Manifestation.

[Ice9]

Re: Sub-Zero's Ice Clones

 

Trigger at the "automatically resets" level (an additional +1/2) should do it, and conveniently costs the same as Uncontrolled.

You might want to add the "Entangle and Character Both Take Damage" advantage (+1/4, IIRC), so that the freezing doesn't give the target any extra defense.

 

One thing about Trigger is that it doesn't distinguish based on how useful the condition is, which can lead to odd results. For instance:

Trigger: "Teleport when someone starts to attack me" and Trigger: "Teleport when someone has hit me" both cost the same, but one is a lot more useful.

[Zed-F]

Re: Sub-Zero's Ice Clones

 

That's where the GM needs to rule on what is and what is not acceptable for a trigger. How does the trigger know someone is about to attack you? Usually triggers are not based on the character wanting to invoke the power, but on some predetermined and typically very obvious effect. If I were GM, it would be a lot harder to justify a power with a trigger 'someone is about to attack me' than it would be to justify 'someone has hit me.'

[The Main Man]

Re: Sub-Zero's Ice Clones

 

That's where the GM needs to rule on what is and what is not acceptable for a trigger. How does the trigger know someone is about to attack you? Usually triggers are not based on the character wanting to invoke the power' date=' but on some predetermined and typically very obvious effect. If I were GM, it would be a lot harder to justify a power with a trigger 'someone is about to attack me' than it would be to justify 'someone has hit me.'[/quote']

 

Considering that they are reasoning from infect and not completely inventing the power, it should not be hard to understand it.

 

Secondly, the Trigger is meant to simulate the intended usage of the ice clone move, instead of being needlessly complicated.

[Vox]

Re: Sub-Zero's Ice Clones

 

Link the ice clone to the Martial Dodge maneuver via Trigger, Resets. If he uses Dodge and the attacker misses with a melee attack, the Entangle goes off. No need for a physical manifestation. Just make it an Area to avoid accuracy issues.

 

My two centavos.

 

~Gabriel

[KA.]

Re: Sub-Zero's Ice Clones

 

I may be oversimplifying, but based on years of playing as Sub-Zero, I would probably go with something fairly simple like:

 

Entangle 4d6, 4 DEF,

Takes No Damage From Attacks (Physical Attacks) (+1/4);

Activation Roll 14- (-1/2)

Costs 33 Character Points

50 Active Points

5 END to use

 

Basically the Activation roll allows for having to "set up" the attack by having the opponent run into the clone.

The "No Damage from Physical Attacks" means that you can hit the character without damaging the Entangle, but if you use an Energy attack it "melts" or at least takes some damage.

 

The whole clone/trap aspect is just special effects. Otherwise you may end up with something like the power in the game itself, meaning it basically never works.

 

KA.