Sean Waters Posted June 16, 2009 Report Share Posted June 16, 2009 I have this power built: I've saved your life, and now it is mine! (Total: 80 Active Cost, 17 Real Cost) Healing BODY 3d6, Can Heal Limbs (35 Active Points); Gestures (Complex; Requires both hands; -3/4), Limited Power Power loses about a third of its effectiveness (Can not be used on self; -1/2), Concentration (0 DCV; -1/2), OIF Crystal (-1/2), Extra Time (Full Phase, -1/2), Incantations (Complex; -1/2), Spell (-1/2) (Real Cost: 7) PLUS Major Mental Transform 3d6 (45 Active Points); Gestures (Complex; Requires both hands; -3/4), Concentration (0 DCV; -1/2), OIF Crystal (-1/2), Extra Time (Full Phase, -1/2),, Linked Mental Transform (-1/2), Incantations (Complex; -1/2), Spell (-1/2) (Real Cost: 10) The short version is that you heal someone and you do whatever you did in healing as a mental transform at the same time. No problem. The mental transform makes them into a loyal retainer/slave. The recipient obviously knows that they are being affected by a power BUT what do they know exactly? Will they realise that they are in fact being affected by two powers? Will they know that something 'adverse' has happened at the same time as something benficial? I don;t think the rules cover that as such, so it is a GM call, but how would you call it? Or, do you think the rules DO cover it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
secretID Posted June 16, 2009 Report Share Posted June 16, 2009 Re: What do you know? Doesn't that just depend on how you define the Transform? "Transform target into target compelled against his/her will to obey my commands." vs. "Transform target into target who thinks I'm awesome and wants to comply with my every request." That's why I'm not a big Transform fan. Am I missing something basic? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted June 16, 2009 Report Share Posted June 16, 2009 Re: What do you know? They know the effects of the Transform are hitting them. You would need some kind of IPE for them to not realize you've made a change. Generally, depending on my sense of drama at the exact moment, they may not know What Change was made without some form of deep Telepathy to check their internal wiring so to speak. Or they may some idea, but not the specifics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
薔薇語 Posted June 16, 2009 Report Share Posted June 16, 2009 Re: What do you know? When I first read this title I thought that it was about Rene Descartes and his statement, "Cagito ergo sum" Or "I think so therefore I am." Guess I was wrong. La Rose Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest steamteck Posted June 16, 2009 Report Share Posted June 16, 2009 Re: What do you know? That's evil. I like it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ockham's Spoon Posted June 16, 2009 Report Share Posted June 16, 2009 Re: What do you know? I think Ghost Angel is right; they will know what has happened to them. The interesting role-playing aspect in my mind, is how much do they care? Is the Transform such that they become completely devoted to the healer and see the Transform as a necessary part of their salvation, or do they resent the fact they have become a slave? Or does it vary from person to person? That's where the fun really begins. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted June 17, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 Re: What do you know? When I first read this title I thought that it was about Rene Descartes and his statement' date=' "Cagito ergo sum" Or "I think so therefore I am." Guess I was wrong. La Rose My favourite joke: Rene Descartes walks into a bar and orders a pint, downing it in one. The barman says, "Do you want another?" Rene says, "I think not.", and vanishes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted June 17, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 Re: What do you know? I'm not sure. If you JUST hit someone with a transform then they know they have been hit by something and that it has an effect. The language in the book is slightly confusing. In one part it says that if a transform does not succeed in a single attack then the effects can be perceived (5ER 238), which sounds like a hard rule, but earlier is says that the target suffers no ill effects from an incomplete transform but his appearance MAY alter slightly, which alerts him to what is happening (5ER 237). That is more the language of the GM call. Thing is this: if you have never been mentally transformed into a willing slave, how do you know that is what is happening? How do you differentiate between that and the effects of the healing power? How do you know that the healing power does not have that effect? To a large extent it is not that important int he particular campaign - I built this to limit how willing people were to be healed whilst making healing still readily accessible - you are OK if you get healed by several different healers, but if you have to rely one one then you may find yourself their slave. I thought it might make for some interesting tensions especially in a group with only one healer. Even if the healer is not one to take advantage they will still have the power. However, not everyone will know the effect of the healing spell as they will not have encountered it, so it may be important at some point. I mean, even a power without IPE will not be noticed in an environment where there are other, more powerful stimulii: you might not notice an individual bullet on a battlefield (unless it hits you) and you might not even notice an individual bullet even if it does hit you, if you are hit by several other bullets or caught in an explosion at the same time. IPE is not the only way that a power can go unnoticed - misdirection can be just as effective. Whatever the answer, I like the idea that if you save a life it becomes yours, at least for a while (the transform is linked to the healing so they always roll the same 3d6 and the transform damage heals at normal rate, so when you would have naturally recovered from the injury you also naturally recover from the transform - unless an unscrupulous healer harms and heals you on a regular basis to keep you 'topped up'). One other option, a point saving, would be to include a transform as a side effect that works on both the target and the healer: binding them together psychologically - again making it desireable not to heal the same person regularly. But that is not really how I want to do it - I want people to be afraid of healers, not healers who are afraid to heal. That affects the build but not whether the effect is perceived - I'd assume teh same considerations apply. It is a thought though - presumably, as a rule of thumb, side effects that affect the target are seperately perceiveable (although I've often though that a potentially very dodgy limitation - especially if the base effect is harmful anyway). It seems to me that sfx, the visibility of powers and their perceiveablity by targets is an area that is sometimes difficult to see clearly It is an element of 'game balance', it is a matter of logic, it is a matter of how the rules are written and the slant that puts on it all. Unfortunately they do not always mesh as a coherent whole. I'm sorry this post is getting longer and longer, but another point: what if the healer were to TELL the injured person that the healing spell would make them feel better, but a little light headed and they would feel a rush of good feeling toward the healer - but it would pass. Well, they'd be expecting it, right? In just the same way that if you gave someone some medicine and told them it would help but would make them feel nauseous for a bit. So, who can say when they get hit by a healing that something - undesireable - is also happening, especially if the target is expecting to feel in a particular way. Hell, everything that the transform does could be explained by the sfx of teh healing, in fact the transform and the healing might have indistinguishable sfx, which would mean that there would be no way of knowing which one was hitting you - or if both were. OK. Stopping now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted June 17, 2009 Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 Re: What do you know? You could easily rule that both Powers have the exact same SFX regarding the Visibility Rules - therefore an outside observer would likely not Perceive a difference. the Target on the other hand, is aware of the Effects being done to them - as another example if you have a Flash with a linked Attack, both are a 'searing light' effect, just because the primary ability blinds them doesn't mean they don't know they were also damaged. Now, they likely have no idea What the Transform is doing, just that it is doing something. The rest really is best left in the GMs hands regarding Dramatic Sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted June 17, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 Re: What do you know? You could easily rule that both Powers have the exact same SFX regarding the Visibility Rules - therefore an outside observer would likely not Perceive a difference. the Target on the other hand, is aware of the Effects being done to them - as another example if you have a Flash with a linked Attack, both are a 'searing light' effect, just because the primary ability blinds them doesn't mean they don't know they were also damaged. Now, they likely have no idea What the Transform is doing, just that it is doing something. The rest really is best left in the GMs hands regarding Dramatic Sense. The flash and damage I can 'see', although the target might not be aware that it is the result of two seperate attacks, but they will know that they can not see and that it hurt, as a result of a power hitting them. It is a common enough type of damage that most people will understand, even if they have never been hurt like that, or blinded before. The thing about healing and a mental transform that is different is that most people have never experienced a power that changes the way their brain works, or knits their flesh - there is no frame of reference. They may know something is happening to them, but it is unlikely that they would have any idea what - and if they do not recognise the symptoms, how will they know that not everything they are feeling is as a result of the healing alone? As you say they know something is happening - they just ahve no idea what. I can see why the game would want a target to know what they are being affected by - if only to give IPE some meaning, but it seems like an artificial idea to me: it is like speaking to someone in a language that they do not know: they know you are talking to them, sure, just as someone hit by a visible power knows that they have been hit, but thay not only have no idea what you are saying, but also no idea what language you are saying it in*. Unless you have experinced the language before - or been affected by the power - you do not know what you are encountering. Hero goes one better than that - no two powers work the same way anyway, in terms of game-effect. You could get hit by an energy blast that makes you feel agony, or even one that makes you feel extreme pleasure - they both work the same way mechanically - they reduce your STUN** - but you'd never know they were the same power - that is almost the point of Hero. *Unless it is Italian, which anyone can recognise instantly, even they can not speak a word: it is the 'flash' of languages. **I mean, STUN - what's that? It is a purely mechanical device for deciding whether the character is conscious or not - it doesn't have any real world, or even game world analogue. How could you even really know if you were losing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted June 17, 2009 Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 Re: What do you know? Correction - you have no frame of reference. In a game-world where such powers exist, people may very well have a frame of reference to understand when someone it altering their mind, or minds eye. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted June 17, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 Re: What do you know? Correction - you have no frame of reference. In a game-world where such powers exist, people may very well have a frame of reference to understand when someone it altering their mind, or minds eye. Well people who have encountered it, yes - as I mentioned above, most people will know what healing does and what the side effects are - but for those who have not encountered healing, there is no frame of reference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted June 17, 2009 Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 Re: What do you know? Funny stuff happened - stuff to their brain, stuff to their injuries. People who have never been burned tend to learn what "burning" is pretty quickly. So saying they've never encountered it isn't the best argument, just because you've never encountered something doesn't mean you can't perceive and deduce its effects on you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted June 17, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 Re: What do you know? Funny stuff happened - stuff to their brain, stuff to their injuries. People who have never been burned tend to learn what "burning" is pretty quickly. So saying they've never encountered it isn't the best argument, just because you've never encountered something doesn't mean you can't perceive and deduce its effects on you. Perceive, yes, but deduce the effects? Burning is identifiable as pain, and almost everyone knows what pain is for. If there was an EB with fire sfx then you would know, even if you had never encountered fire, that it hurt like the dickens and you'd almost certainly want to get away from the sensation. What if you got hit by an EB from Pan though, and it made you feel intoxicated: it didn't hurt, you just feel light headed and happy, then more and more so until you pass out. That is a valid enough sfx, at least on the face of it, but it does not cause a reaction in the same way as fire. Anyone would try and avoid the pain that fire brings, whereas people might be far less wary of an intoxication EB - some might even volunteer to try it out. The point is that pain is a universal signal for danger, whereas attacks in Hero do not have to cause pain - they can be very desireable - I had one character who had an attack that triggered all the pleasure centres in a target's nervous system, built as an ego attack. Became very popular Now someone who suddenly found themselves a bit drunk, or euphoric might well be wary of whatever was doing it to them - or they may try and get some more. Back to the point in hand, all that the mental transform might do is give you a mild headache, or even a mild feeling of goodwill and euphoria. The healing COULD have a sfx that it the wound tingles almost painfully and your mouth tastes of medicine - sometimes what does you good has an unpleasant taste. How would a target of the heal+transform know that they were being hit by two seperate powers and that all the sfx are not just symptoms of a single power being applied? I mean the sfx of transform might be very obvious: your wound tingles like pins and needles as it closes, there is a bitter taste in your mouth and there is a brief shooting pain through your head then you feel a warm flush of positive emotion for your healer. Hmm. Even described that way, many people might not realise that they had been attacked as well as healed... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted June 17, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 Re: What do you know? Double post Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted June 17, 2009 Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 Re: What do you know? Like I've been saying all along. You know something is happening. You may not know what. Can't make it any clearer than that. You know something is happening. End of story. Stuff is happening to me. There - done. What... up to GM to describe. But he has to describe it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mallet Posted June 17, 2009 Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 Re: What do you know? This is more of a technical question about the build of the power: I have this power built: I've saved your life, and now it is mine! (Total: 80 Active Cost, 17 Real Cost) Healing BODY 3d6, Can Heal Limbs (35 Active Points); Gestures (Complex; Requires both hands; -3/4), Limited Power Power loses about a third of its effectiveness (Can not be used on self; -1/2), Concentration (0 DCV; -1/2), OIF Crystal (-1/2), Extra Time (Full Phase, -1/2), Incantations (Complex; -1/2), Spell (-1/2) (Real Cost: 7) PLUS Major Mental Transform 3d6 (45 Active Points); Gestures (Complex; Requires both hands; -3/4), Concentration (0 DCV; -1/2), OIF Crystal (-1/2), Extra Time (Full Phase, -1/2),, Linked Mental Transform (-1/2), Incantations (Complex; -1/2), Spell (-1/2) (Real Cost: 10) Can you actually have the limitations: Concentration, Gestures (complex) and Incantations (complex) in use at the same time for 2 powers? I mean the character can't be doing the complex gestures and incantations for the Healing power, at the same time as he is doing them for the Transformation power, can he? Maybe if one of the powers required the Incantations and the other required the Gestures it would work, but with both, using both, that seems incorrect to me. I don't think I would allow that build if I was GMing it or is there something in the rules that I don't remember saying that a joint ("PLUS") power can make use of the same Limitations, at the same time, on both powers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted June 17, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 Re: What do you know? This is more of a technical question about the build of the power: Can you actually have the limitations: Concentration, Gestures (complex) and Incantations (complex) in use at the same time for 2 powers? I mean the character can't be doing the complex gestures and incantations for the Healing power, at the same time as he is doing them for the Transformation power, can he? Maybe if one of the powers required the Incantations and the other required the Gestures it would work, but with both, using both, that seems incorrect to me. I don't think I would allow that build if I was GMing it or is there something in the rules that I don't remember saying that a joint ("PLUS") power can make use of the same Limitations, at the same time, on both powers? I think you can, they were built linked, and built with Hero Designer. The limitations limit both powers equally, and a linked power is, from one angle at least, a single bigger power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted June 17, 2009 Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 Re: What do you know? This is more of a technical question about the build of the power: Can you actually have the limitations: Concentration, Gestures (complex) and Incantations (complex) in use at the same time for 2 powers? I mean the character can't be doing the complex gestures and incantations for the Healing power, at the same time as he is doing them for the Transformation power, can he? Maybe if one of the powers required the Incantations and the other required the Gestures it would work, but with both, using both, that seems incorrect to me. I don't think I would allow that build if I was GMing it or is there something in the rules that I don't remember saying that a joint ("PLUS") power can make use of the same Limitations, at the same time, on both powers? Yes you can. It usually means that both Powers use the same Incantations & Gestures etc... It's a Compound Power - in many ways it's One Power With Multiple Mechanics/Effects. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mallet Posted June 17, 2009 Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 Re: What do you know? Ah.. Good to know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
薔薇語 Posted June 23, 2009 Report Share Posted June 23, 2009 Re: What do you know? My favourite joke: Rene Descartes walks into a bar and orders a pint, downing it in one. The barman says, "Do you want another?" Rene says, "I think not.", and vanishes. :thumbup: Must spread the Rep around, yadda, yadda. La Rose Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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